You know it's nearly christmas when ... (1 Viewer)

[Rabbie]

Are you saying there was no such person named "Jesus" that all this fuss is about?

Regardless of whether there was a person called Jesus born round about 4BC as described in the bible there was a major celebration at this time of year. The romans called theirs Saturnalia and the vikings had their Yule. It seems the Christian Church just took over an existing festival and put a religious spin on it. There was a beleif in the 17th century among puritans that they shouldn't celebrate Christmas because whatever day Jesus was born on it certainly wasn't the 25th December. What the basis for this belief was I don't know.

 

[chergh]

... when threads like this start appearing

 

[ShaneMan]

Regardless of whether there was a person called Jesus born round about 4BC as described in the bible there was a major celebration at this time of year. The romans called theirs Saturnalia and the vikings had their Yule. It seems the Christian Church just took over an existing festival and put a religious spin on it. There was a beleif in the 17th century among puritans that they shouldn't celebrate Christmas because whatever day Jesus was born on it certainly wasn't the 25th December. What the basis for this belief was I don't know.

I do understand this and don't disagree with it. There is some evidence that Jesus was born on Sept. 11th too, but I don't think he was born anywhere near Dec or the winter time, but, to me, it's a big stretch to say there was no Jesus born during the time frame that the Bible says he was. Also, there may have been many Jesus's during that time frame but the New Testament writers are talking about a particular man named Jesus. I guess in my mind to say he didn't exist at all it a pretty big stretch and denies the New Testament as any type of a historical document.

 

[KenHigg]

Regardless of whether there was a person called Jesus born round about 4BC as described in the bible there was a major celebration at this time of year. The romans called theirs Saturnalia and the vikings had their Yule. It seems the Christian Church just took over an existing festival and put a religious spin on it. There was a beleif in the 17th century among puritans that they shouldn't celebrate Christmas because whatever day Jesus was born on it certainly wasn't the 25th December. What the basis for this belief was I don't know.

This looks like a google search re-write... Who would ever remember something like 'Saturnalia'

 

[chergh]

Who would ever remember something like 'Saturnalia'

People with an intrest in history?

 

[KenHigg]

People with an intrest in history?

Good point. But even at that wouldn't you think they'd need to have special interest in that area/time - ?

 

[Alc]

I do understand this and don't disagree with it. There is some evidence that Jesus was born on Sept. 11th too, but I don't think he was born anywhere near Dec or the winter time, but, to me, it's a big stretch to say there was no Jesus born during the time frame that the Bible says he was. Also, there may have been many Jesus's during that time frame but the New Testament writers are talking about a particular man named Jesus. I guess in my mind to say he didn't exist at all it a pretty big stretch and denies the New Testament as any type of a historical document.

i remember reading something (wish I could remember the source ) that went through a checklist of 'facts' from the bible and got theologians, historians, archaeologists, etc. to rate each as 'Verifiably true' (e.g. Herod killing babies), 'Plausible', 'Highly Unlikely', Mistaken/misreported' and 'Certainly/probably didn't happen' (e.g. Earth created in seven days).

There seems to be a fair bit of evidence that someone named Jesus existed at around the time the bible said he did and that he was fairly well-known for trying to help people. That, in itself, is enough to admire. Has the story become corrupted so that multiple people's deeds have been ascribed to one individual? Possibly (it was a common name). Did he turn water into wine and walk on water? Probably not, but people do tend to exaggerate when telling stories and this one has been around long enough to be twisted out of all recogntion.

 

[KenHigg]

twisted out of all recogntion.

Kind of like Col - He's really a nice guy

 

[chergh]

Good point. But even at that wouldn't you think they'd need to have special interest in that area/time - ?

Not really I could imagine that sort of questions coming up in a UK pub quiz.

 

[KenHigg]

Not really I could imagine that sort of questions coming up in a UK pub quiz.

Can you share the names of these pubs, I'll make sure to mark them off of my list of places to visit if I ever come over -

 

[ShaneMan]

i remember reading something (wish I could remember the source ) that went through a checklist of 'facts' from the bible and got theologians, historians, archaeologists, etc. to rate each as 'Verifiably true' (e.g. Herod killing babies), 'Plausible', 'Highly Unlikely', Mistaken/misreported' and 'Certainly/probably didn't happen' (e.g. Earth created in seven days).

There seems to be a fair bit of evidence that someone named Jesus existed at around the time the bible said he did and that he was fairly well-known for trying to help people. That, in itself, is enough to admire. Has the story become corrupted so that multiple people's deeds have been ascribed to one individual? Possibly (it was a common name). Did he turn water into wine and walk on water? Probably not, but people do tend to exaggerate when telling stories and this one has been around long enough to be twisted out of all recogntion.

I understand what your saying, I really do, but I guess something that is puzzling to me is we humans have very little problems with other historical writing and writers but when it comes to the New Testament and their writers then it becomes fairy tales and exaggerations. We accept Julius Ceasars Guild Wars and we have 10 copies with an approximate range from original to copy of about a 1000 years; Plato 7 copies & 1200 years; Aristotle 49 copies and 1400 years and the list can go on but you seldom hear an argument on their historical content. We have 5,686 Greek text alone, copies of New Testament books with a less than 100 year span from original and a 99.5% accuracy rating of the copies. (meaning when they find a new copy they check it to the others they have already found) These original copies have been found all over the Middle East and the story stays consistent, yet with this kind of evidence, "it's a fairy tale." I am not making an argument of believing what these men wrote but I am saying that, historically, we have more copies of these documents than any other writing or writers, as of this date, which for me means we have more facts than any other historical story being told. With only 10 copies of Julius Ceasars Guild wars and so much time after they were written of our nearest copy to original date, why isn't this a story, fable, fairy tale, a book of exaggerations?

 

[oumahexi]

Heh, just buy flour and make my own .. much nicer and you can't beat the smell of fresh bread in the morning

Gimme a shout when it's ready Ruth, I'll be right over

 

[oumahexi]

I understand what your saying, I really do, but I guess something that is puzzling to me is we humans have very little problems with other historical writing and writers but when it comes to the New Testament and their writers then it becomes fairy tales and exaggerations. We accept Julius Ceasars Guild Wars and we have 10 copies with an approximate range from original to copy of about a 1000 years; Plato 7 copies & 1200 years; Aristotle 49 copies and 1400 years and the list can go on but you seldom hear an argument on their historical content. We have 5,686 Greek text alone, copies of New Testament books with a less than 100 year span from original and a 99.5% accuracy rating of the copies. (meaning when they find a new copy they check it to the others they have already found) These original copies have been found all over the Middle East and the story stays consistent, yet with this kind of evidence, "it's a fairy tale." I am not making an argument of believing what these men wrote but I am saying that, historically, we have more copies of these documents than any other writing or writers, as of this date, which for me means we have more facts than any other historical story being told. With only 10 copies of Julius Ceasars Guild wars and so much time after they were written of our nearest copy to original date, why isn't this a story, fable, fairy tale, a book of exaggerations?

Shane, I think what confuses most people is that a lot of the New Testament refers to "miracles". People today don't believe in miracles or magic and therefore anything associated with it gets chucked into the recycle bin as "garbage". The truth is that miracles or magic still happen, they just don't get reported because nobody wants to think or hear about the good stuff any more, they are happier to hear about the badness of the world (like the death of Baby P).

It is my belief that Jesus existed, he practiced the Kabalah, which was pretty common at the time, and through his practice was able to affect healings. This doesn't make him any less significant or special, and to top it all, he offered us a map of how to live in harmony with each other. I don't think it was ever his intention that a religion should be built around his name and I think he would be mortified to see some of the work that has been done in his name, but delighted to see other works...

Clunk. Just fell off my high horse.

 

[Alc]

With only 10 copies of Julius Ceasars Guild wars and so much time after they were written of our nearest copy to original date, why isn't this a story, fable, fairy tale, a book of exaggerations?

At a guess? Primarily because I've never heard anyone ascribe what we understand to be physically impossible feats to Julius Caesar. Everything he is said to have accomplished could have been accomplished by anyone, given the same force of personality, etc.

If the writings about him said he invaded the UK by walking across the channel and fed his troops by magically creating extra food, I think he'd be regarded in the same way as King Arthur i.e. parts of the legend are probably true, but they've been so intermixed with [what we see as] the blatantly impossible, that his story is no longer regarded as history, rather legend.

If the only stories about Jesus said how he helped people and talked peace, I doubt anyone would have any problems with them. Mix in being the son of God, turning water to wine, coming back from the dead, etc. and the story starts to seem less plausible and more like a grossly exaggerated description of events.

 

[RCheesley]

I am starting to wish I hadn't even posted this thread - it was not intended to be religion bashing or arguing what version of christmas is actually true or correct .... come on guys, lighten up!

 

[Fifty2One]

On USA thankgiving there is a radio station near to us that started playing festive seasonal music - or christmassy music if you dont want to be all pc anal about the season.
Our version of the Christmas story is probably not the same as anyone elses here but one thing for sure - everyday there are miracles all round us, all we have to do is focus on positive things and stop rooting around in the cesspool of bad news making good news.

BTW
If people dont lighten up and stop fighting over differences pretty soon everyone will have purged the world of differences and we will rot from boredom because everyone will be exactly the same.

I am starting to wish I hadn't even posted this thread - it was not intended to be religion bashing or arguing what version of christmas is actually true or correct .... come on guys, lighten up!

 

[RCheesley]

If people dont lighten up and stop fighting over differences pretty soon everyone will have purged the world of differences and we will rot from boredom because everyone will be exactly the same.

Or people might learn to accept that others have different views and opinions?

 

[Alc]

If people dont lighten up and stop fighting over differences pretty soon everyone will have purged the world of differences and we will rot from boredom because everyone will be exactly the same.

Or not. The concept of fighting and arguing about differences is hardly a very recent occurrence and there's no sign yet of everyone becoming the same.

 

[Alc]

Or people might learn to accept that others have different views and opinions?

Yes. That'll happen.

 

[dan-cat]

...your credit card balance miraculously ascends.