A great loss..

[The_Doc_Man]

Sometimes it is the implicit contact with another person that DOES lighten up the day. Otherwise, why would social media exist? Even if it is really an illusion, we can all benefit from that exchange of ideas - whether we are in a pub tossing down a pint or in a forum tossing down an idea. Man is a gregarious animal - specifically in this case meaning Man does not like to be alone.

The conversations DO alter the space-time continuum in the same sense as the Butterfly Effect. Spreading a sense of connection isn't a bad thing.

 

[KitaYama]

I regret ever starting it

Why? Because of our simplistic and childish debates which ignored reality and consequences?
Don't worry. I have one more comment and it will be over soon.

I love these simplistic debates. They nearly always ignore consequences (and harsh reality).

 

[KitaYama]

I read all the replies carefully several times, and I’ve tried to step back and look at this from both sides, not just from my initial instinct. And I have to admit, many of your points are valid. The idea that non-violent offender, especially hackers with specialized skills, can contribute more by cooperating than by sitting in a cell does make practical sense. If their cooperation can help stop larger threats, protect the public, or bring down criminals who cause far more harm, then there’s a strong argument for offering them a different path than traditional prison time.

At the same time, I’m still a bit torn, because part of me feels that a crime is still a crime and justice should be applied consistently. Consequences exist for a reason, and it’s hard for me to completely ignore that. I don’t think accountability should disappear just because someone has useful skills. But I do understand your perspective much better now, and I agree that there are situations where cooperation can lead to a better outcome for everyone, not only for law enforcement, but for society as a whole.

So while I still have some reservations, I also recognize that the issue isn’t as black-and-white as I initially felt. You’ve given me solid points to think about, and even if I’m not fully convinced yet, I can say that I mostly agree with what you’ve said.

 

[KitaYama]

I had a lot more to say, and wanted to explain in details, but as it turns out, the OP and some others are not enjoying our (my?) discussion, I think I'll stop here.
Thanks for your thoughts.

 

[The_Doc_Man]

At the same time, I’m still a bit torn, because part of me feels that a crime is still a crime and justice should be applied consistently. Consequences exist for a reason, and it’s hard for me to completely ignore that.

It is up to YOU as to whether this thread is enjoyable or productive (in the sense of exchanging ideas in a good way). Your enjoyment should not depend on someone else unless they absolutely go off the rails and ruin the thread.

I'm going to suggest in relation to the comment I just quoted that your feelings about crime & punishment relate to your feelings on the purpose of incarceration. If you are a "retribution" or "revenge" person you will look at this differently than if you are a "redemption" and "restitution" person.

Here in the USA, though we were NOT founded as a Christian nation (despite some incorrect beliefs), a lot of our founders WERE Christian, so some of those basic tenets have crept into our legal system. From a Biblical passage, Romans 12:19 - "Vengeance is mine; I will repay, says the Lord." This is one of the origins of the many Biblical admonitions against revenge. We have other sayings as well, including the one about "turn the other cheek" and a generally peaceful sentiment from the many admonitions regarding forgiveness. Therefore, you should not be surprised to find that we give people second chances to do good.

You are from a society that is ordered (by traditions) to be non-confrontational, or at least that is how I understand it. But in the fine art of verbal confrontation, we can learn by exploring. And as long as it stays verbal, polite, and non-vulgar, it is a confrontation with limited risk. You identify yourself clearly, so everyone knows you disagree. (As opposed to trolls who hide behind false identities.) But the sun still rises each day. And your day will go on as long as you didn't commit some seditious act online.

So I will repeat an old phrase I first heard in college: Illegitimis non carborundum - don't let the bastards grind you down.

 

[Isaac]

My very limited knowledge tells me before you become a "White Hat", you've earned your wisdom working as a "Black Hat".
If this is true, or at least in 90% of situations is true, it means the white hats have been criminals at some point.

I really hate the plea bargain in your system. If you're guilty, you have to be sentenced accordingly.
Gravano confessed to 19 murders over his criminal career. When prosecutors charged him, he accepted a deal: plead guilty, cooperate, and testify against the bosses of his organization. Because of that cooperation, instead of facing decades or life behind bars, he was sentenced to only 5 years in prison. Although by then he had already served about 4 years, so effectively less than a year remained.
I can give a long long list and trials in youtube for these pleas.

My blood boils in my veins when I think after years of forging checks, impersonating pilots, doctors, and lawyers, Frank Abagnale Jr. is finally arrested in France and extradited to the U.S. He is sentenced to 12 years in federal prison. While in prison, FBI agent Joseph Shea visits him and realizes that Frank is uniquely skilled at detecting check fraud — better than most agents. He asks him to work for the FBI’s bank fraud division.
In return, Frank gets early release. He is allowed to live and work on the outside (but monitored). Eventually he becomes a free man, fully pardoned, with a legal career helping banks against fraud.

It means if you're a good criminal, you can get away with your crimes. Do your wrong doings, if arrested, help them to arrest other criminals.
You, Edgar and others maybe correct. But I think if you've done something wrong, you have to face the consequences.

I can understand your point. Justice isn't served in those cases on the individual case level, but maybe from a higher vantage point, it is - but you're right, it seems like a perversion of the system.

My blood boils in the opposite direction when I think of all the people accused of crimes, who aren't really guilty or the situation was very different (and more innocent) than the Charges imply, but they are forced to plead 'guilty' because the threat of trial (especially at the Federal level, where 99% of all trials result in a guilty verdict) is emotionally too much for them to bear. Thus, it is common for prosecutors to both wield and abuse great power, because the mere threat of an accusation leads to a Guilty plea. Then, years later, people like you come along and automatically believe that everyone with a "guilty" label is actually "guilty" - not realizing they were FORCED to plead "guilty" as a defense tactic only, not because they actually were guilty.

There are many people who are victims OF the criminal justice system. My sister is a public defender and I've read too many books to think otherwise.