Question Access versus Filemaker Pro Advanced

Perhaps I have become cynical but I wonder if those earlier posts were nothing but entrees to the main course which was always intended to promote Filemaker Pro to Access users. "What is the best" is a classic spamming technique used in forums. Though not in this case, it is usually accompanied by a "second user" who promotes the target product.

I was wondering what the whole purpose of the tenacity of the OP was. If it were a company sending out evangelists, I would have expected something a lot more articulate and well though out. Either way, the OP should do a little more research on Access and SQL Server before saying it does or does not do a certain task.

Or he could just be an Apple snob.

Oh, BTW, use Fowlmaker pro! (LOL, jk).
 
Or he could just be an Apple snob.

I did contemplate this possibility but elected not to suggest it. But now you mention it.

It would certainly account fo a lot of the persistence. Mac users frequently are particularly vocal about the superiority of their computers and software in an effort to overcome the sneaking suspicion that they have paid top dollar for a machine with limited capability. The inability to run Access is a glaring shortcoming for which there is no comparable substitute.

I would have expected something a lot more articulate and well though out. Either way, the OP should do a little more research on Access and SQL Server ...

The problem is finding someone who knows enough about Access to be articulate and yet still wants to back FileMaker.
 
Glad to see several others chiming in while I was away.

We seem to be overlooking one important factor about Filemaker. It was originally designed and invented for use on an Apple.
This is the main reason (I think) why it does not have VBA available. VBA doesn't work on an Apple.
There have certainly been enough Windows versions of Filemaker released that VBA could have been incorporated into it if the makers so choose. That they have chosen not to seems to me to be a devotion to the original (Apple) configuration. If VBA were available on the Windows version, they would have to come up with somthing similar for the Apple version, which means taking the whole project back to the drawing board.

As dfenton points out- VBA is in fact available on Mac. What should even be more telling is the fact that for Office 2008, they dropped VBA citing several good reasons for doing so though ultimately it was shortsighted move. Now, the Office 2011 is slated to have VBA back. Personally, I think this is just another mistake as they're bringing back legacy technology when they should be moving ahead to VSTA & .NET functionality as well providing a compatibility layer for the existing VBA macros. But my whole point here is that even on Mac, there are investment in VBA that there was big enough outcry that forced Microsoft to reverse their earlier decision of scrapping VBA from Office 2008.

And dfenton's right- it's really not about VBA but rather the lack of a formal scripting languages. Access at least gives us both macros and VBA. Filemaker only gives us scripts (e.g. Access's macros).

Now, to be honest, I don't have any facts but from what I see all over, I'm inclined to believe that people at FM has decided to put more emphasis on usability than power and thus did more than Access to hide the actual complexity. Did they succeed? Well, I can tell you it's easier to get off and designing something in few minutes but the ceiling is pretty low. With Access, there's lot of disparate objects requiring the novices to at least grasp the concept of tables, queries and forms before designing can even start in earnest. So in that respect, FM has succeeded, yes, but as soon as the same user says, "Okay, now I want to embed my business logic..."

We can then turn to the table-level validation or macros to provide rudimentary validation. Good so far, and both are on par. Now if it's complex formula and the macros doesn't support it... it's VBA for Access. For FM, it's now plug-ins which you have to pay out money for.

Mind, a case can be made that it's cheaper for a company with no programmer to just buy a pre-packaged plugin to extend FM than waiting months for their receptionist to learn the basic VBA and 'get it' before writing out a solution. It's a classic question of time versus money. Either will definitely be cheaper than hiring a contractor to develop a custom solution, definitely, but that's a decision that everyone in charge has to come face with.

Perhaps I have become cynical but I wonder if those earlier posts were nothing but entrees to the main course which was always intended to promote Filemaker Pro to Access users. "What is the best" is a classic spamming technique used in forums. Though not in this case, it is usually accompanied by a "second user" who promotes the target product.

Unfortunately for FileMaker, the responses in this thread will have had exactly the opposite effect. Anyone reading this thread would be unlikely to even bother looking at FileMaker.

IMHO, a good argument for not choosing FM can be found from FM's own site: Filemaker and Access comparsion.

Now the author has spoke about Access in a disparaging manner but if you're astute reader who can read between the lines, the author has made several concessions where Access is ahead or on par with FM.

Take a look at the history of posts by the OP of this thread (genesis).

I do certainly hope that this isn't a case of spamming/advertising, but even so, I think we have to go back and look at what design consideration were at play for each products. With FM, as stated above, I'm inclined to believe that they want to have a usable product for people who are not programmers. Access attempts to does the same thing, but I've always perceived Access as having more of IDE feel than a "appliance" feel. Not a bad thing, mind, but that's something we have to take in consideration. One of my long-standing beef is that there's a persistent belief that's quite widespread and isn't limited to just Filemaker or Access: That we must dumb down to make it simple. That is not true. Access's recent addition of multi-valued fields and lookup fields are one example. So is FM's hiding the normalization. VBA's too lenient with undeclared variable by default. All share in the common in that they teach bad habits and thus makes a bigger mess when the time comes to advance into next stage of evolution. This is, IMHO, a big reason why so many IT people dislike Access, dismissing it as 'toy database'. They never realized it was the carpenter, not the hammer that is inept. Same attitude can be found towards MySQL, yet it became popular because it was simple in contrast to many other RDBMS. Then we have Access exposing the full complexity when we toggle between design view to SQL view. So it is possible but for whatever reasons, it is not implemented consistently, even within the same application in question.

And when nobody would bite on that one we get this thread which incredibly labours the point of the 7TB capacity, the supposedly superior security, and simple connectivity of FilemakerPro over Access.

...

And genesis promotes that FileMaker security is simple while Access is diabolically complex.

I must have had got caught up on the size because I missed the security. That said, I usually like to tell others that the problem #1 with security is that it's far easier to fool oneself into thinking it secured when in fact it's not secured.

I was wondering what the whole purpose of the tenacity of the OP was. If it were a company sending out evangelists, I would have expected something a lot more articulate and well though out. Either way, the OP should do a little more research on Access and SQL Server before saying it does or does not do a certain task.

The problem is finding someone who knows enough about Access to be articulate and yet still wants to back FileMaker.

Or he could just be a novice wanting to eat his cake and have it. I'm probably being a Pollyanna, but then again, it's not exactly the first time this kind of thread popped up. A while ago, we had a poster complaining that he could do his queries in 4GL and that SQL was clumsy compared to it, because he could put syntax in any place and it'd just work. Then there's some people who want to use it for web applications but don't want to learn ASP.NET or Java or whatever.

Oh, well.

Or he could just be an Apple snob.

I did contemplate this possibility but elected not to suggest it. But now you mention it.

It would certainly account fo a lot of the persistence. Mac users frequently are particularly vocal about the superiority of their computers and software in an effort to overcome the sneaking suspicion that they have paid top dollar for a machine with limited capability. The inability to run Access is a glaring shortcoming for which there is no comparable substitute.

You'll have to forgive me for not wearing my beret and speaking in snotty French accent everytime I post. I'll try harder to fit the stereotype next time. ;) :p

Oh, BTW, use Fowlmaker pro! (LOL, jk).

Nah, Tyson has it already. Crazy licensing fees, so they say. ;)
 
It would certainly account fo a lot of the persistence. Mac users frequently are particularly vocal about the superiority of their computers and software in an effort to overcome the sneaking suspicion that they have paid top dollar for a machine with limited capability. The inability to run Access is a glaring shortcoming for which there is no comparable substitute.

Filemaker was initially introduced as a DBMS for the Apple. Although some Apple users claimed it was "Access for Apple", Apple never made this claim themselves.
Filemaker certainly meets the basic requirements of a DBMS, but as previously discussed, it does have many shortcomings.
I used the Windows version for a short time but quickly came home to Access. The inability to program any specific instructions was the main reason. In additon, I was creating league database systems at the time. A player's winning percentage was listed as ".500" if they had won as many as they had lost. In FM it always came out as "0.500". There was no way to get rid of the leading 0 (at least in the version I was using).
 
Mac users frequently are particularly vocal about the superiority of their computers and software in an effort to overcome the sneaking suspicion that they have paid top dollar for a machine with limited capability.

Since the introduction of OS X, that just isn't true. That is an OS X machine is *not* a "machine with limited capability." It's UNIX under the hood, and if you're willing to learn how to manage a UNIX box, there's no limitation as to what it can do.

Of course, you give up many of the easy-to-use interfaces that come with the best-designed GUI there's ever been. And that's a significant barrier to the vast majority of Mac users.

But OS X is an extremely versatile OS -- you can do anything as long as you take the time to learn how.
 
...VBA's too lenient with undeclared variable by default. All share in the common in that they teach bad habits and thus makes a bigger mess when the time comes to advance into next stage of evolution. This is, IMHO, a big reason why so many IT people dislike Access, dismissing it as 'toy database'. They never realized it was the carpenter, not the hammer that is inept. Same attitude can be found towards MySQL, yet it became popular because it was simple in contrast to many other RDBMS.

Two comments:

1. Most of the Access bigots don't even understand the distinction between Access and Jet/ACE, and they are sissing Jet/ACE because too many people have tried to used it in circumstances in which it was inappropriate (because it's too easy to use, of course). They don't have a clue about the power of Access as development tool for front ends -- they are ignorant and want to remain ignorant.

2. For years and years, MySQL *was* a toy database -- any database engine that lacks referential integrity is a toy, in my opinion. It took a non-native engine (InnoDB) to add that feature for several interations and then they finally figured it out. Of course, in the core market for MySQL, web applications delivering read-only content (which is what MySQL was designed to be optimized for), that was less necessary. But as people started trying to use MySQL for real applications that required RI, it became a glaring lack. The InnoDB solution worked fine as long as you didn't need, say, full-text indexing in addition to RI -- for a long time you ended up having to trade one set of features for another. This is another sign of "toy database" status, that you can't build a real application without compromise.

That said, I use MySQL and find it very easy to work with. But I don't have any apps where MySQL is used as anything other than a data store that is a slave of a real database, with full RI (Jet/ACE in all case, in fact).
 
[Mac OS X is] UNIX under the hood

FWIW, since 10.5, it's UNIX-certified so it's not merely 'UNIX-like' as many Linux distros are and puts it in same league as HP/UX, AIX and Solaris. Now, some will argues that it doesn't really mean that much of deal, but I think it does offer an indication of how much common Mac OS X has with the rest of 'big iron' OS, even in the non-server version.

For years and years, MySQL *was* a toy database -- any database engine that lacks referential integrity is a toy, in my opinion. It took a non-native engine (InnoDB) to add that feature for several interations and then they finally figured it out. Of course, in the core market for MySQL, web applications delivering read-only content (which is what MySQL was designed to be optimized for), that was less necessary. But as people started trying to use MySQL for real applications that required RI, it became a glaring lack. The InnoDB solution worked fine as long as you didn't need, say, full-text indexing in addition to RI -- for a long time you ended up having to trade one set of features for another. This is another sign of "toy database" status, that you can't build a real application without compromise.

That said, I use MySQL and find it very easy to work with. But I don't have any apps where MySQL is used as anything other than a data store that is a slave of a real database, with full RI (Jet/ACE in all case, in fact).

While I totally do understand your point about its lack of RI for many years as a glaring shortcoming, I have to argue that was exactly what made it popular; the fact that you weren't required to have RI and thus trade it in for performance made sense for some applications. Like Jet/ACE, it all depends on whether we're using it for right job. As saying goes, right tool for right job.

Few months ago, I did a contract work for a client where they needed a reporting application. Part of the process was to retrieve large datasets from their Oracle DSS system between every truncate & reload cycle so they have the history in the format they wanted. The contract was already underway when I got involved and they already chose SQL Server for the job. However, I would have had not recommended SQL Server because they had no use for RI or any integrity checks, ACID-compatibility in this case and thus it was in fact a liability for the client who wanted fast-performing application that never writes or modify any data. There is no choice within SQL Server to remove all those overheads (some could be alleviated but not completely eliminated) that were totally unnecessary whereas MySQL offers that option. The fact that a choice even exists puts MySQL ahead in my book, IMHO.

The issue was that in past there was no way for applications to have a fast & simple engine without requiring significant administration and MySQL provided that answer. It's not going to replace Oracle or SQL Server anytime soon, that's for sure, but it did fill a niche that either was entirely inappropriate for.
 
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While I totally do understand your point about [MySQL's] lack of RI for many years as a glaring shortcoming, I have to argue that was exactly what made it popular; the fact that you weren't required to have RI and thus trade it in for performance made sense for some applications. Like Jet/ACE, it all depends on whether we're using it for right job. As saying goes, right tool for right job.

I don't disagree with that at all. But what happened is that it started being used for apps that *needed* RI by people who didn't know any better. And *that* was a major problem.

I had a project once writing code in Access to synchronize between an Access database that was a superset of a MySQL database on a web server. For the tables and fields in the MySQL database, the Web server was the master. For the fields that were in Access but not in MySQL, Access was the master.

Records could be added in both places.

And we quickly ran into a bunch of inserts on the MySQL side that had 0 in the foreign key and cause the synch to puke, since the Access database had RI enforced.

I was appalled and shocked and amazed.

I eventually got over it, but it taught me something about how our tools teach us as much as we "teach" our tools.
 
I eventually got over it, but it taught me something about how our tools teach us as much as we "teach" our tools.

I doubt that anyone here would disagree that we have all learnt far more by what doesn't work that what does work.
 
But what happened is that it started being used for apps that *needed* RI by people who didn't know any better. And *that* was a major problem.

How unfortunate, but I think it again goes back to make sure we blame the carpenter, not the hammer.

Even so, it may not always be fair to blame the carpenter because at that time, it's conceivable that they never thought they would need Access as one of client and didn't think they needed RI. This usually has worked out the same way with Access application that started its life on a desktop of an employee and grew into a company-wide mission critical application with the grumbling from IT that they wouldn't be having this problem if it was written in a "proper tool" from the start.

I eventually got over it, but it taught me something about how our tools teach us as much as we "teach" our tools.

I doubt that anyone here would disagree that we have all learnt far more by what doesn't work that what does work.

Ahem to that!
 
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Even so, it may not always be fair to blame the carpenter because at that time, it's conceivable that they never thought they would need Access as one of client

Access was never a client of the MySQL database -- it was on the website and never accessed directly from Access.

and didn't think they needed RI.

They needed RI. The fact that records got inserted with a 0 foreign key proves it.

This usually has worked out the same way with Access application that started its life on a desktop of an employee and grew into a company-wide mission critical application with the grumbling from IT that they wouldn't be having this problem if it was written in a "proper tool" from the start.

Relationships were enforced in the PHP app that ran the website, but a PHP upgrade caused things to work differently, and the code that was holding things together and supposedly ensuring proper data in the FK fiels broke, resulting in the insertion of invalid data. Who knows how long it would have taken to discover the problem had it not been for the Access app immediately rejecting the invalid foreign keys!

I'm sorry, but I just don't think there's an excuse there for a database to not have RI.
 
I had a situation many years ago where I had a solo desktop Access application at work. I created it from scratch. Others in the department saw it, wanted it and so a copy was duly sent to the IT dept. for evaluation and implimentation.

THREE YEARS later IT got back to us. According to them, this database was useless as it didn't use UNIX, was too cumbersome and a variety of other reasons the Access uninitiated would come up with.

I had to contact them and inform that the database had been placed onto the department server two years earlier as we got tired of waiting for them to get back to us. It had worked flawlessly the entire time. This was my first attempt at a network app so I read up on it as much as I could.

The head of IT blew a gasket and wanted it removed. My dept. head informed him that if anyone in IT touched it he would make it his business to rain toads on IT.

I since left the company and saw an old co-worker one day. I asked how the database was holding up after all these years. I was informed it had been discontinued. Seems someone from IT had decided it had to be updated. Totally screwed it up. The sort of thing that an Access newbie who had read books or taken a cource would do. Example: many of my carefully contructed queries had been replaced by Lookups.
 
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