Are you an atheist?

[Dick7Access]

The abuse is not just reserved for women. Circumcision is the mutilation of male infants without consent. It's a barbaric religious tradition, that has only one purpose CONTROL.

Male circumcision practised as a religious rite is found in texts of the Hebrew Bible, as part of the Abrahamic covenant, such as in Genesis 17, and is therefore practised by Jews and Muslims and some Christians, who constitute the Abrahamic religions. However even before the covenant of Abraham the aposthis of Shem may have served as an inspiration.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Religious_male_circumcision

Some how we have gotten past "Pork and Shell Fish" surely we can get past this.

Did you know that automobiles imported into Arab countries have to have 3 inches cut off the exhaust pipe.

 

[Vassago]

I firmly believe that no body modifications should be done on any child too young to voice their opinion and decide for themself that they would like such modification unless it is done for truly medical reasons. Circumcism has been proven to be purely cosmetic. The only excuse I've found to do it for medical reasons had to do with ease of cleanliness. Surely, there is no need to remove skin from your baby to ease your own inability to keep them clean.

I believe the same with ear piercings. If a baby can't even speak yet, they certainly have no need for their ears to be stabbed, likely with a gun at a flyby jewelry shop, notorious for unclean piercings. Let them grow up a little and decide for themselves if they want their ears pierced rather than satisfying your own vanity by taking that choice from them before they can speak.

Those are my two cents anyway.

 

[Brianwarnock]

Whilst I agree with Vass in general we must realise that circumcision has been a rite of passage into adult hood in some cultures for a long time and only Judaism demands it for religious reasons.

As to the cleanliness issue we must not think only in terms of developed countries were it is obviously easy, in undeveloped countries it may not be so simple. I have read that the incidence of STDs and especially HIV is greatly reduced in circumcised heterosexual males in Africa. This due to a reduction in the cells that encourage the growth of HIV. Also something called smeg, a combination of dead skin and oils, can gather under the foreskin.

Female circumcision now called FGM should certainly be banned by all civilised people's.

Brian

 

[Vassago]

Whilst I agree with Vass in general we must realise that circumcision has been a rite of passage into adult hood in some cultures for a long time and only Judaism demands it for religious reasons.

As to the cleanliness issue we must not think only in terms of developed countries were it is obviously easy, in undeveloped countries it may not be so simple. I have read that the incidence of STDs and especially HIV is greatly reduced in circumcised heterosexual males in Africa. This due to a reduction in the cells that encourage the growth of HIV. Also something called smeg, a combination of dead skin and oils, can gather under the foreskin.

Female circumcision now called FGM should certainly be banned by all civilised people's.

Brian

STD issues shouldn't be a problem for those who are too young to decide they would like it done. At a certain age, you can decide for yourself. What age is up for debate, but certainly no babies can give that consent and shouldn't have STD risks as a concern.

I agree about female "circumcision." Cultural influences are a tough thing to debate about. The best thing we can do is encourage education about the risks vs rewards. There is certainly no need fro that practive to continue today.

 

[Brianwarnock]

Vass , I did say that I agreed with you generally but maybe I should have worded it better before broadening the discussion.


Brian

 

[Vassago]

I understood your point. If there are health benefits that can be obtained through male circumcism, then one can absolutely decide to get the procedure done at an age where those medical benefits would work. It's still a decision that someone can maek for themselves.

 

[aziz rasul]

Once again Aziz attempts to convince us of his argument by a surfeit of quotes from the Qu'ran.

What better than to let God do the talking as much as possible. After all it is God we will have to answer to on the Day of Judgement.

States that Allah sends people astray, why? What is the purpose behind Allah sending people astray, fuel for the fires of hell?

002.006 As for the Disbelievers, Whether thou warn them or thou warn them not it is all one for them; they believe not.
002.007 Allah hath sealed their hearing and their hearts, and on their eyes there is a covering. Theirs will be an awful doom.
002.008 And of mankind are some who say: We believe in Allah and the Last Day, when they believe not.
002.009 They think to beguile Allah and those who believe, and they beguile none save themselves; but they perceive not.
002.010 In their hearts is a disease, and Allah increaseth their disease. A painful doom is theirs because they lie.

042.013 He hath ordained for you that religion which He commended unto Noah, and that which We inspire in thee (Muhammad), and that which We commended unto Abraham and Moses and Jesus, saying: Establish the religion, and be not divided therein. Dreadful for the idolaters is that unto which thou callest them. Allah chooseth for Himself whom He will, and guideth unto Himself him who turneth (toward Him).

002.152 Therefore remember Me, I will remember you. Give thanks to Me, and reject not Me.

The meaning of God sending people astray is that those people who reject the truth, Gods turns His ‘back’ on them which means they will wander and never receive God’s guidance and hence left to their own devices. If these people then turn towards seeking the truth or those who already are aware of the truth turn back towards their Creator, God gives them guidance again. So guidance or misguidance is dependent on our actions. As God says, those who walk towards Me, I will run towards them, metaphorically speaking of course. God does not at random decide who He will guide and who He will leave from guidance.

Those who end up in Paradise or Hell fire will do so because of their actions.

There are many people out there who were disbelievers and who now are believers. God be Praised.

… in the case of Islam by denying them education and opportunity

Can you supply a Qur’anic verse that corroborates this, otherwise it’s just a rant which gets us nowhere. Note there are non-Muslim fanatics as well. Many exist in the so called Christian world. Remember the Iraq invasion. 650,000 deaths, ring any bells?

Aziz shows us clearly where women stand in Islam.

Galaxiom, your poisoned mind seems to be at work again and tends to be uni-directional unfortunately. There is nothing in what I said condemns women. What was being condemned was prostitution which applies as a sin to both men and women as both are parties to it. The purpose of multiple marriages was to keep both men and women clean from such acts and as a result build a better society for all.

 

[aziz rasul]

When I was a baby I had all sorts of injections without my consent. Perhaps we should stop all these as well. After all if contract any diseases, so what! Let's hope we don't die before we are old enough to give consent.

 

[Vassago]

When I was a baby I had all sorts of injections without my consent. Perhaps we should stop all these as well. After all if contract any diseases, so what! Let's hope we don't die before we are old enough to give consent.

There were immediate medical benefits from those injections. It wasn't purely a cosmetic decision. There is a huge difference between vaccinations and circumcism.

 

[Brianwarnock]

:banghead: :banghead:


7.178 He whom Allah leadeth, he indeed is led aright, while he whom Allah sendeth astray - they indeed are losers.

I quoted the above from a post by Aziz and asked why Allah would send people astray. In the reply Aziz stated that those who had rejected Allah would... But hang on , where does it say these people had rejected Allah , it just states the he is going to send some astray.

You never get a straight answer from Aziz , he twists everything and drowns you in meaningless quotes. When he first started posting I had hoped for a useful dialogue but that hope was soon dashed and it has just got worse.

Brian

 

[aziz rasul]

It wasn't purely a cosmetic decision.

Circumcision is a medical benefit and not cosmetic. That's why I said what I said about the other medical injections.

 

[Dick7Access]

:banghead: :banghead:


7.178 He whom Allah leadeth, he indeed is led aright, while he whom Allah sendeth astray - they indeed are losers.

I quoted the above from a post by Aziz and asked why Allah would send people astray. In the reply Aziz stated that those who had rejected Allah would... But hang on , where does it say these people had rejected Allah , it just states the he is going to send some astray.

You never get a straight answer from Aziz , he twists everything and drowns you in meaningless quotes. When he first started posting I had hoped for a useful dialogue but that hope was soon dashed and it has just got worse.

Brian

Brian,
While I agree with most of what you have posted on this thread, and agree with nothing Aziz posted, I appreciate more you staying mostly with logic and not personality.
Dick

 

[aziz rasul]

Brian, I gave you a straight answer. I can't help if you don't understand or appreciate the answer. A useful dialogue works both ways.

where does it say these people had rejected Allah

You have to read the Qur'an in full to get the detailed information you need. I neither have the time or scope to teach every minutia of detail on every verse. I assume that contributors who are interested do some research on your own to find the answers. I have tried to give us much detail as is possible wherever I can. In the issue of being led astray I gave enough information to give direction. You need to read the whole post and not pick bits out and then use that as a point of discussion. That's not what I would call cricket.

Just as someone posts a problem here on this forum, you can't expect on every occasion to do all the work for the poster. There are occasions where it may be required. So I would like some positive contribution from you Brian rather than rude sound bites which makes no contribution.

Here's part of the answer again in case you didn't bother to read it:-

The meaning of God sending people astray is that those people who reject the truth, Gods turns His ‘back’ on them which means they will wander and never receive God’s guidance and hence left to their own devices. If these people then turn towards seeking the truth or those who already are aware of the truth turn back towards their Creator, God gives them guidance again. So guidance or misguidance is dependent on our actions. As God says, those who walk towards Me, I will run towards them, metaphorically speaking of course. God does not at random decide who He will guide and who He will leave from guidance.

002.152 Therefore remember Me, I will remember you. Give thanks to Me, and reject not Me.

Please explain the medical benefit of infant circumcision?

I'm sure you could look that up on Google. There are of course other search engines.

 

[Brianwarnock]

Aziz said

.
You have to read the Qur'an in full to get the detailed information you need.

This because I challenged a quote from the Qua'an and his explanation which added words that were not in the quote, thus we must assume that all of his quotes are selective and thus worthless.

Brian

 

[Brianwarnock]

Asked by AccessBlaster to give medical advantages of infant circumcision Aziz suggested he googled, the first hit returned this

Most healthcare professionals maintain that the potential benefits of circumcision are not strong enough to justify routine childhood circumcision.

And then

Potential complications of circumcision – these include excessive bleeding and post-operative infection, and outweigh any potential benefits.

How many reports must we read?

Of course sometimes it is necessary as it was for a nephew of mine.

Brian

 

[Brianwarnock]

Brian,
While I agree with most of what you have posted on this thread, and agree with nothing Aziz posted, I appreciate more you staying mostly with logic and not personality.
Dick

Thank you Dick, I appreciate that, I try to avoid personal attacks and insults and would apologise if I inadvertently slipped up.

Brian

 

[aziz rasul]

the first hit returned this

I did not get that in my first hit. Hmmm, very strange. Instead I got a page which talked about the benefits of circumcision.

This because I challenged a quote from the Qua'an and his explanation which added words that were not in the quote, thus we must assume that all of his quotes are selective ...

The Qur'anic verses are selective to the discussion at the time. What else would you expect? I answered your question by quoting, yes by a selective verse, in my earlier post regarding your question, yet you do not mention my explanation at all in your response. Clearly you are not interested in a debate. If you choose either not to read it or to understand or be blind to the selective verse(s) that is not my concern.

Here's another selective Qur'anic verse:-

6.104 Proofs have come unto you from your Lord, so whoso seeth, it is for his own good, and whoso is blind is blind to his own hurt. And I am not a keeper over you.

61.005 And (remember) when Moses said unto his people: O my people! Why persecute ye me, when ye well know that I am Allah's messenger unto you ? So when they went astray Allah sent their hearts astray. And Allah guideth not the evil-living folk.

 

[Brianwarnock]

Aziz if you read post 3301 again you will find that I did mention your "explanation" , not in full of course as you immediately went off on the sidetrack at which point I challenged it.

Brian

 

[aziz rasul]

Brian if you read post 3296 I had ready answered your challenge and in later posts.

 

[Brianwarnock]

It's like arguing with a brick wall, In 3301 i challenge his answer in 3296 and he says that he answered in ..3296, damn clever to answer before asked. What he doesn't get that it is his answer that I am challenging, of course in his closed mind brainwashed over the years no doubt he is so convinced of his own righteousness and our ignorance that he believes he can get away with anything.

I give up.

Sorry Dick I suspect the above let's you down.

Brian