Are you an atheist? (1 Viewer)

[Dick7Access]

The really really sad thing about Iran is that the CIA destroyed the democratically elected government at the behest of Winston Churchill (one of the greatest arsh0les of modern history) who objected to the Iranian government seizing British oil assets in Iran after decades of blatant theft of their resources.

How different would the Middle East have been without that disruption?

QUOTE]

Gal I am not disputing your above statement as I am not up on the subject but would like to be. I have goggled it but did not come up with much. If you know of a site please sent it to me.

 

[AnthonyGerrard]

Well spoken, but is there any doubt in your mind that if Iran gets a nuclear bomb they would attack Israel?

I have no doubt it would strengthen their bargaining position - just as it does the USA's or Isreals or ours.

I am not totally convinced of the threat of Iran (or rather that its anymore of a threat to a peaceful long term future - than actually is the status quo, or Israels position at the moment.) no - I have seen the "wiping Israel of the face of the map" is a bit of a deliberate misquote - ie it shouldne be an internationally recognised country - not we are going to nuke the place, when Palastine isnt yet recognised - I can see his point.

But no I dont trust anyone with nukes - but banning one whlst allowing another nation - just kicks the same problem down the road.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=85jSgzs9-nU
This guy on Iranian TV and with Ahmadinejad shows us at least that what most of us think of as is - is actually just one interpretation. Where does that interpretation come from - and can it be trusted, thats the question.

I am open minded on it.

 

[Andrew Barker]

Here is a question: If everyone in the world was an atheist and could intelligently disprove the existence of God.....would that actually mean that God did not exist?
Does God only exist if we think he does? Or if we can prove he does?
If God is real......then no amount of thinking or arguing or proving can change it.
If God is real.....then i think this world needs his help. I know many will scorn this because there is so much crap happening and it seems God aint helping. But if you check out the the lives of folk who really believe in God (im not talking about folk who just do the religious thing), you will find that where there is faith, there is hope. Where there is hope there is peace. Where there is peace there is joy....and you get the picture. I was once an atheist. Now im a believer. I can tell you life is better, more enjoyable, less fearful, less aggresive, more fulfilling when you walk with the one who for some does not exist.

 

[Vassago]

I think the disconcerning thing for me is that religion tends to speak in absolutes which are constantly broken or rewritten. The best thing about an atheist proving that a god does not exist is that science allows things to change without absolutes. What we "know" about science today doesn't necessarily prove to be 100% fact. I like the quote from Men In Black.

"1,500 years ago, everybody knew that the Earth was the center of the universe. 500 years ago, everybody knew that the Earth was flat. And 15 minutes ago, you knew that humans were alone on this planet. Imagine what you'll know tomorrow."

That's science to me. No absolutes. Yeah, we "know" things, but what we know can and will change.

 

[Vassago]

Of course, 500 years ago people didn't actually believe the Earth was flat. That's a misunderstanding, but still.

 

[Andrew Barker]

Hi Vassago....thanks for the reply...so are we in agreement that the conclusions of the scientific /educated world change from one generation to the next? (i think thats what you are saying).
That is one good reason to question how anyone can disprove the existence of God, and somehow think that they arrived at the "truth".
Yes i agree that religion (or shall we call it "man trying to reach/interpret God") is disconcerting, and produces all kinds of weird and unhelpful beliefs.
What about "God reaching out to man". I cant think of one time when in my personal experience, having faith in a good God was ever unhelpful, confusing, disconcerting, etc. Its only ever done me a power of good.....

 

[ColinEssex]

. I cant think of one time when in my personal experience, having faith in a good God was ever unhelpful, confusing, disconcerting, etc. Its only ever done me a power of good.....

In what way has it done you "a power of good"?

How do you differentiate between what you make happen yourself, or what happens due to coincidence or what god does for you.


Col

 

[Brianwarnock]

That is one good reason to question how anyone can disprove the existence of God, and somehow think that they arrived at the "truth".
.

I am not aware of anybody trying to disprove the existence of God, if you had read the thread you would know that this has been debated before, it is proof of his existence that is required.
Please don't just quote some unproven text as proof.

Believe can indeed give strength and comfort but does that does not mean that it is correct.

Brian

 

[Andrew Barker]

Colin thanks for reading my post - to answer your first question - In what way has it done you "a power of good"? The number one thing God has done for me is basically cure me of selfishness and pride. Life aint anymore about how to please number 1. It might be a cliche - but it really is more fun to give than to receive.

your second question: "How do you differentiate between what you make happen yourself, or what happens due to coincidence or what god does for you."
Try as i might, in the 23 years before i put my faith in God, i never once could make myself be unselfish or compassionate, especially where family were concerned. i would try, but i usually had alterior motives........
Then i put my faith in God, and bingo, wow its a coincidence. suddenly i am able to be forgiving and patient and unselfish.....or maybe God is real.You choose!

 

[Andrew Barker]

Brian - yes you are right - it is proof of his existence that is required.
Sometimes proof is subtle. Every child has a mother. Every creation has a creator. So i guess the proof is this: Take the time to stand and stare at this planet, this universe, this human race. Was it created purposely or is it a random result of a massive explosion? Over to you...

 

[Brianwarnock]

Andrew - that's a wishy washy answer. If this is a purposeful design by a loving all powerful being then it aint working.

Brian

 

[Andrew Barker]

Brian - ok, would you allow me to tell a story: Imagine that you are a top watchmaker in the swiss mountains. You give your prize watch to your son, who goes through a horrific marriage, a divorce and somehow the watch ends up in the ex-wife's care. Care is a generous word here...she has no regard for its upkeep. It gathers rust. It aint working...... Is that any reflection on the love, care and skill of the maker?
So agreed for many this world aint working. Doesnt mean if you take your rusty life back to the creator he cant fix it.

 

[Brianwarnock]

Yep he sure fixed for those folks in Moore just like he does for the people suffering due to lack of rain in Africa, still I suppose it's our adult we should have learnt to control the weather.

Been through all of this nonsense before so won't continue again.

Brian

 

[ColinEssex]

Yep he sure fixed for those folks in Moore just like he does for the people suffering due to lack of rain in Africa, still I suppose it's our adult we should have learnt to control the weather.

Been through all of this nonsense before so won't continue again.

Brian

I agree Bri, I remember discussing this back in about 2001 and on and off ever since.

Those who are for,will argue, as will those against, there is no outcome either way.

But just to help it on, religion is a well thought out non provable scam and many people are coining in millions on the back of people's insecurities.

Col

 

[Andrew Barker]

Brian - if God is a puppeteer and this world is his stage, then agreed, he is failing. Then he is responsible for every diaster, every crime, everything. Ultimate evil being i guess. Unless.....
He is not in control. Just as a father does not control his 50 yr old son...Just as the Queen does not control the plans of a criminal......but stands for and offers justice when it is needed. Do you think we need to continue?

 

[Andrew Barker]

Colin - you are right that comment will help it on! Well I am sure there are "scam" preachers out there. What about "scam" doctors, pirate software, counterfeit money, fraudulent bankers, fake rolex watches etc etc. Do they invalidate the real originals?

 

[Brianwarnock]

I never thought that as a father I would be placed in the same position as your God in respect to how I treated my children, but then I would not let them starve or suffer in any way if I could help. I would send the rain to Africa.

Brian

 

[Andrew Barker]

Brian - i admire your tenacity, and i think the duration and response of this thread proves one thing - we are a whole lot more concerned about the possibility of the existence of God than the average atheist would let on........

 

[Galaxiom]

Hi Vassago....thanks for the reply...so are we in agreement that the conclusions of the scientific /educated world change from one generation to the next? (i think thats what you are saying).

Science rarely reverses much about knowledge but instead refines it with greater detail.

Einstein didn't replace Newton but demonstrated that Newton's Laws were a specific case of a more general law where the effects of relative velocity were trivial. Gravity was shown to be a special type of acceleration.

Indeed General Relativity could even be considered as nothing more than Newton's Laws of motion applied to four dimensional SpaceTime.

Likewise, Quantum Mechanics didn't invalidate Atomic Theory but revealed the deep underlying causes of the interactions between matter and energy.

General Relativity and Quantum Mechanics describe the Universe as we know it from the largest to the smallest scales respectively. The accuracy of their predictions is beyond reproach with vast numbers of observations and experiments confirming the nature of nature itself. You are sitting in front of a machine that is testimony to our understanding of reality.

These theories hold and correctly model the Universe we live in from the point where the first pixel of pure energy burst forth. The pixel size of the Universe is 10 ^ -35 metres across.

This also equates to a time tick of about 10 ^ -44 seconds.

We do understand the operation of the Universe on incredibly small scales and find no need for anything other than physics and logic to explain everything that we see in the Universe today.

Science doesn't leave much for a God to have done but create that first pixel. Thousands of scientists are working on observations and new hypotheses to extend our understanding to outside our Universe and determine what physical cause there could be for that first pixel.

The need for and influence of a God has moved further back throughout history as scientists explained the truth about reality. The causes revealed have never yet turned out to be the will of a supernatural being so I would lay odds that the Big Bang won't turn out to be down to a god.

 

[Galaxiom]

But if you check out the the lives of folk who really believe in God (im not talking about folk who just do the religious thing), you will find that where there is faith, there is hope. Where there is hope there is peace. Where there is peace there is joy....and you get the picture.

The religious would have us believe that "true" hope, peace and joy are only available to those who choose to "walk with the Lord".

Yet me, my family and my friends have a wonderful time without the slightest need for an imaginary friend to comfort us. The believers condescendingly counter with the notion that we don't really know "proper" joy or hope.

I won't go into a discussion about peace as the reality of the relationship between religion and peace is quite evident in the news every night.

I was once an atheist. Now im a believer. I can tell you life is better, more enjoyable, less fearful, less aggresive, more fulfilling when you walk with the one who for some does not exist.

If it makes your life better then great. However science suggests that you are experiencing a placebo effect. It is a well known fact in medical research that the placebo is a surprisingly effective medicine.

Feeling better because you believe in God does not prove that your God exists.