Are you an atheist? (2 Viewers)

Are you an atheist?


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Frothingslosh

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(see John 1:12; Acts 15:11; Romans 3:22-24; Romans 4:4-8; Romans 7:24-25; Romans 8:12; Galatians 3:6-9; and Ephesians 2:8-10)......the Bible is clear and teaches that salvation is only available by faith through the grace of God and not by our good works. Check out the passages above for further clarification. In fact, the good works mentioned in the parable is the result of salvation not the cause of salvation.

In Matthew 25:31-46 (the Parable of the Goats), Jesus Himself says otherwise:

“When the Son of Man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, he will sit on his glorious throne. All the nations will be gathered before him, and he will separate the people one from another as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats. He will put the sheep on his right and the goats on his left.

“Then the King will say to those on his right, ‘Come, you who are blessed by my Father; take your inheritance, the kingdom prepared for you since the creation of the world. For I was hungry and you gave me something to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me something to drink, I was a stranger and you invited me in, I needed clothes and you clothed me, I was sick and you looked after me, I was in prison and you came to visit me.’

“Then the righteous will answer him, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry and feed you, or thirsty and give you something to drink? When did we see you a stranger and invite you in, or needing clothes and clothe you? When did we see you sick or in prison and go to visit you?’

“The King will reply, ‘Truly I tell you, whatever you did for one of the least of these brothers and sisters of mine, you did for me.’

“Then he will say to those on his left, ‘Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels. For I was hungry and you gave me nothing to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me nothing to drink, I was a stranger and you did not invite me in, I needed clothes and you did not clothe me, I was sick and in prison and you did not look after me.’

“They also will answer, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry or thirsty or a stranger or needing clothes or sick or in prison, and did not help you?’

“He will reply, ‘Truly I tell you, whatever you did not do for one of the least of these, you did not do for me.’

“Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life.”

Apparently, He has a very low opinion of hypocrites, including those who think saying "But I believed in Jesus!" is enough.
 

Libre

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Concerning the existence of Jesus Christ as a divine being, who is nowadays referred to by some, as God, or the Son of God.

This is a problem for me. Please don't write lengthy paragraphs explaining it. It won't help. I just want to explain my own position on the topic.

I can accept that there was a man named Jesus Christ. I can accept some of the fables and stories, even though they may be made up - they MIGHT be true. Not the part about resurrection, or immaculate conception, miracles and other supernatural events - but all the worldly stuff might be true. There was a Jewish man (a rabbi, actually) named Jesus. Judaism was already an ancient religion, having existed for thousands of years at the time. Jesus started preaching about a new religion, about his father, about how to be in life to others, how to worship, etc, and a lot of people followed him. On the other hand, this may have all been made up centuries after he was supposed to have lived. But I'm not tackling that question here. Just supposed he actually lived.

As a Jew, I went to Hebrew School as a child, enough to receive a Bar Mitzvah on my 13th birthday. I went to Hebrew School for 5 years, and was required to attend Sabbath services every week.

In the Jewish religion, one thing is stressed beyond all other things - that there is ONE and ONLY ONE God. Recall that Judaism is one of the oldest religions in the world. The other ancient religions worshipped many divinities - a god for the Sun, a different god of the Dead, a different one for thunder, etc. But the Jews didn't subscribe to this - they did, and still do, worship a single Creator.

The most important prayer in all of Judaism is called "the Shema". It goes like this:
Sh'ma Yisrael Adonai Eloheinu Adonai Eḥad

and the translation:
Hear, O Israel: the LORD is our God, the LORD is One.

This prayer is bellowed out at least once if not more, at every Jewish religious service.

The LORD is ONE. Very serious about that. ONE.

And that's one of the problems I have with accepting Jesus Christ as my savior (another other one is I'm an atheist/agnostic and have no belief in divinity at all). But if I did, I would worship the one and only GOD - not his son, mother, holy spirit, or third cousin twice removed.

The LORD is ONE. Very important concept to we Jewish folk. Even we non-believers.

Christianity teaches that Jesus is the Son of God, not actually God himself, who created the universe and everything in it. Then there is the Holy Trinity, which includes the Spirit or Holy Ghost. Now I'm counting three. Three is two more than one (in case your arithmetic is rusty).

And that is why it is not possible for observant Jews - the Chosen People - to accept Jesus Christ as God.

Now the "messiah" that we've been waiting for forever - that has me thoroughly confused. Don't ask me what the Messiah is supposed to represent. I think they keep this stuff confusing, to keep everybody guessing about what it all means.
 
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Frothingslosh

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Actually, Libre, "Christ" is just a title - it's from the Greek 'Khristos'. Transliterated from Aramaic to modern English, the name Jesus would actually be 'Yeshua', which more normally made it to English as Joshua.

The Holy Trinity is a construct of Catholic origin (which means that, as the AntiChrist, Blade should actually be opposing it) meant to reconcile Jesus and God against the idea that there is only one god. (The Holy Ghost doesn't show up until the Middle Ages - I don't remember where, but about a month ago, I saw an interesting article suggesting that it was invented by an unusually obsessive monk in order be 3 beings, since 3 was considered a mystical number.) Basically, that they are three facets of a single being.

Personally, I've never found an answer to that that seemed to work for me - all the arguments seem to be exercises in sophistry, nothing more.
 

Libre

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Yes, Froth. The part about 3 being a kind of mystical, powerful number.
Consider almost any joke - yes, joke.
It's always 3.
A priest, a rabbi, and a Protestant minister go golfing (fishing, hiking, whatever).
Or a lawyer, a doctor, and an engineer walk into a bar.
Or an Italian, a Frenchman, and a Polish man are captured by Indians.
You get the picture.
It's always three.
 

Frothingslosh

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Ghosts of Christmas Past, Present, and Future
Arson, Murder, and Jaywalking

Yeah, something in our psychology likes the number 3.

Anyway, looking forward to seeing Blade try to explain why the Parable of the Goats doesn't mean what it says it means. Should be an amusing exercise in self-delusion.
 

Alc

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I've been struggling to remember where I'd heard the general idea of "every man for himself and if he can't help himself, it's not my problem".

Finally, out of the blue, it dawned on me. This used to be a popular expression in the UK (was even a film, at one point). Used less in recent years, but it sounds like it could be repurposed as the slogan for some on the thread?

http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=I'm all right Jack!
 

Frothingslosh

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I've been struggling to remember where I'd heard the general idea of "every man for himself and if he can't help himself, it's not my problem".

Finally, out of the blue, it dawned on me. This used to be a popular expression in the UK (was even a film, at one point). Used less in recent years, but it sounds like it could be repurposed as the slogan for some on the thread?

http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=I'm all right Jack!

It could be used as a brief summary of both American Capitalism and American Christianity.
 

Alc

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It could be used as a brief summary of both American Capitalism and American Christianity.
Definitely the former (but not just restricted to the US).

The latter? Perhaps (and, again, not just in the US). I think the 'beauty' of religions with a holy book is that anything written therein can be interpreted however one of its followers sees fit.

Want to kill "bad" people? Find a quote that suits. Think you should let someone else punish them? Fine. Isn't there something about "vengeance is mine, sayeth the lord"?

Take Blade for example, I don't believe him to be a bad person by any stretch of the imagination but he's able to interpret the bible to make the attempt to help people with charity sound like something the antichrist would propose. This being is stark contrast with the way many Christians would read the messages therein.

It would have made things so much easier if the people who made it all up could have been more precise when they wrote it. Would it have stopped people saying we should let the needy suffer? No, but it would have been one less thing for people to use to justify the behavior.
 

Frothingslosh

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The funny thing is that the New Testament hammers on the topic of 'help the needy' relentlessly, and yet the majority of so-called Christians in this country refuse to. Hell, I guarantee you that Blade will find yet another reason why we absolutely shouldn't lift a finger to help the poor if he replies.

That Matthew quote is pretty cut-and-dried, yet people like him STILL refuse to accept that they need to do more than yell "Praise JESUS" all the time in order to actually follow the teachings of Christianity.
 

Bladerunner

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In Matthew 25:31-46 (the Parable of the Goats), Jesus Himself says otherwise:

HI Frothy,,Hope this helps?

"In studying the Parable of the Sheep and Goats (Matthew 25:31-46), let’s take a look at just what a parable is. Webster’s New World Dictionary, Second College Edition, defines the parable as; a comparison; a short simple story, usually of an occurrence of a familiar kind, from which a moral or religious lesson may be drawn.” However, Jesus explained the parable in a little different way. In Luke 8:9-10 He taught; “His disciples asked Him (Jesus) what this parable meant. He said “the knowledge of the secrets of the kingdom of God has been given to you, but to others I speak in parables so that “seeing they may not see; though hearing they may not understand.

This quotation from Isaiah 6:9-10 does not express a desire that some would not understand, but simply states the sad truth that those who are not willing to receive Jesus’ message will find the truth hidden from them. Jesus spoke in parables because of the spiritual dullness of the people and He compares His preaching in parables to the ministry of Isaiah, which, while it gained some disciples (see Isaiah 8:16), was also to expose the hard-hearted resistance of the many to God’s warning and appeal. God does not want anyone to perish (see 1 Timothy 2:3-4 and 2 Peter 3:9).

After a casual reading of the sixteen verses that make up the Parable of the Sheep and Goats (Matthew 25:31-46), it seems that these verses suggest that salvation is the result of good works. The group of persons compared to the sheep were the ones that acted in charity in giving to the needy food, drink, clothing, who exhibited hospitality, and who visited the sick and those in prison. The goats seem to have done nothing in regard to these things. This resulted in salvation for the sheep and damnation for the goats. The casual reading seems to make it very clear and concise that salvation comes from good works. However, this is clearly not the meaning of the Parable of the Sheep and Goats.

All Scripture proves itself right and non-contradictory when compared with the totality of Scripture. This is what is referred to in 2 Timothy 2:15 as “rightly dividing the word of truth.” Scripture does not contradict Scripture, and the Bible clearly and repeatedly teaches that salvation is by faith through the grace and mercy of God and not by good works (see John 1:12, Acts 15:11, Romans 3:22-24, Romans 4:4-8, Romans 7:24-25, Romans 8:12, Galatians 3:6-9, and Ephesians 2:8-10, to mention a few).

A closer examination of the Parable of the Sheep and Goats reveals much, much, more. In the very first verse of the parable Matthew, immediately establishes the Kingship and authority of Christ in using the title that Christ so often used in identifying Himself as the “Son of Man” (see John 5:27 and Daniel 7:13-14). The Sheep are placed at His right hand. This is a place of honor and shows that the Sheep are esteemed by Christ. Compare this with Matthew 22, Luke 22:69, Acts 7:55 and Hebrews 1:13 where Christ is at the right hand of the Father. The Goats are placed on the left. Testimony is given, judgment is made, and reward and punishment are the result.

There are many things in these verses that could be examined in depth and at length. We could look at whether or not this is part of the “Great White Throne Judgment, the judgment of the dead” mentioned in Revelation 20:11, or the judgment of those who survived the “Great Tribulation” and are still alive at the return of Christ. We could look at just who the “Brethren” are referred to in vv. 40 and 45. Does this parable have to do with the treatment of Israel by the other nations of the world? We could look at the doctrines of predestination or election prompted by verse 34, or the question of the eternality of hell referred to in verse 46.

While the examination of these issues is certainly worthwhile, none of them pertain to what is the main thrust of the Parable of the Sheep and Goats. What is God trying to reveal to us in these verses? Note that both of the groups represented by the Sheep and the Goats where not aware of their actions in relation to the judgment conferred upon them and both asked “When did we do these things?” And this question, in itself, is very revealing as to the condition of the heart of those involved.

In these verses we are looking at man redeemed and saved, and man condemned and lost. Salvation takes place at the moment we receive Jesus Christ, by grace through faith, as our Savior. In this giving of yourself, you become a child of God (see John 1:12-13). 2 Corinthians 5:17 tells us that; “if anyone is in Christ he is a new creation, the old has gone, the new has come.” But what is it, exactly, that makes us a “new creation.” We are still in this flesh (see Romans 7:14-25), we are still in this world (see James 4:4), and have no doubt, we are still sinners (see 1 John 1:8).

The change or transformation that takes place in us at the moment of conversion is the fact that we are sealed by God in the person of the Holy Spirit (see Ephesians 1:13-14), resulting in salvation. Salvation means that we are brought to the place where we are able to receive something from Christ, namely, forgiveness of sins (see Acts 26:17-18). Our sin debt to God is then cancelled by the atoning death of Christ on the cross, who, at salvation, becomes our Lord. He paid the price for our sin since we could not (see 1 Corinthians 6:19-20 and Hebrews 10:27-28). From this moment on, when the Father looks at us, He chooses to see His Son indwelling us by the Spirit as opposed to seeing our own sinful flesh, and it is only in this manner that our works become acceptable to Him. These works are not being offered by our sinful flesh, but by the power of the Spirit that resides in us.

At salvation our duty as Christians is to become Disciples of Christ. Our duty is to become like Him (see Romans 8:29, 2 Corinthians 3:18, and Colossians 2:6-7). Galatians 5:22 tells us that the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, gentleness, faithfulness, and self control. These are the characteristic traits that Jesus Christ exhibited throughout His life, and a Christian will grow in this fruit in direct proportion to the cooperation that he gives the Holy Spirit working in his life. Good works in a Christian’s life are the direct overflow of these characteristic traits, and are only acceptable to God because of the relationship that exist between servant and Master, the saved and their Lord, the Sheep and their Shepherd (see Ephesians 2:10).

So the core message of the Parable of the Sheep and Goats is that good works will result from our relationship to the Shepherd, to Christ. Followers of Christ will produce good works, will treat others with kindness, will deal with others as if they were Christ. Those who reject Christ live in the opposite manner. While “goats” can indeed do acts of kindness and charity, their hearts are not truly in them for the right purpose – to honor and worship God.

The practical message of the Parable of the Sheep and Goats is: Just where, exactly, do we stand in relation to the Shepherd. Are you a Sheep or a Goat, saved or lost? Until you come to the place in your life that you find yourself among the sheep, until you are saved by faith, through the grace and mercy of God, you will never find true and lasting peace with God. God made us for Himself, and our hearts will be restless until we find our rest in Him. Consider the Parable of the Sheep and Goats. What is the condition of your heart?

Remember; “he is no fool who gives away what he can not keep, to gain that which he can not lose” (author unknown). Make your decision to dwell with the sheep under the care of the Shepherd, by the grace of God, with the love of Jesus."

Have a great day!

Blade
 

Frothingslosh

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See, told you we'd get some long, drawn-out, self-contradictory gibberish trying to explain how Jesus didn't really didn't mean it when he said that people who didn't help the needy were going to Hell.

It's just sad that Blade can't see how deluded and self-contradictory his pathetic excuses for arguments are.

Some day, Blade, you really do need to face up to the fact that you have read the message of your own savior, and you have rejected it. You are, by any definition of the words, both heretic and apostate, and you're too deluded to even realize it.
 

Bladerunner

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Concerning the existence of Jesus Christ as a divine being, who is nowadays referred to by some, as God, or the Son of God.

This is a problem for me. Please don't write lengthy paragraphs explaining it. It won't help. I just want to explain my own position on the topic.

I can accept that there was a man named Jesus Christ. I can accept some of the fables and stories, even though they may be made up - they MIGHT be true. Not the part about resurrection, or immaculate conception, miracles and other supernatural events - but all the worldly stuff might be true. There was a Jewish man (a rabbi, actually) named Jesus. Judaism was already an ancient religion, having existed for thousands of years at the time. Jesus started preaching about a new religion, about his father, about how to be in life to others, how to worship, etc, and a lot of people followed him. On the other hand, this may have all been made up centuries after he was supposed to have lived. But I'm not tackling that question here. Just supposed he actually lived.

As a Jew, I went to Hebrew School as a child, enough to receive a Bar Mitzvah on my 13th birthday. I went to Hebrew School for 5 years, and was required to attend Sabbath services every week.

In the Jewish religion, one thing is stressed beyond all other things - that there is ONE and ONLY ONE God. Recall that Judaism is one of the oldest religions in the world. The other ancient religions worshipped many divinities - a god for the Sun, a different god of the Dead, a different one for thunder, etc. But the Jews didn't subscribe to this - they did, and still do, worship a single Creator.

The most important prayer in all of Judaism is called "the Shema". It goes like this:
Sh'ma Yisrael Adonai Eloheinu Adonai Eḥad

and the translation:
Hear, O Israel: the LORD is our God, the LORD is One.

This prayer is bellowed out at least once if not more, at every Jewish religious service.

The LORD is ONE. Very serious about that. ONE.

And that's one of the problems I have with accepting Jesus Christ as my savior (another other one is I'm an atheist/agnostic and have no belief in divinity at all). But if I did, I would worship the one and only GOD - not his son, mother, holy spirit, or third cousin twice removed.

The LORD is ONE. Very important concept to we Jewish folk. Even we non-believers.

Christianity teaches that Jesus is the Son of God, not actually God himself, who created the universe and everything in it. Then there is the Holy Trinity, which includes the Spirit or Holy Ghost. Now I'm counting three. Three is two more than one (in case your arithmetic is rusty).

And that is why it is not possible for observant Jews - the Chosen People - to accept Jesus Christ as God.

Now the "messiah" that we've been waiting for forever - that has me thoroughly confused. Don't ask me what the Messiah is supposed to represent. I think they keep this stuff confusing, to keep everybody guessing about what it all means.

No question? No reply!

Hope you have a nice evening, Sir

Blade
 

Bladerunner

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(The Holy Ghost doesn't show up until the Middle Ages - I don't remember where, but about a month ago, I saw an interesting article suggesting that it was invented by an unusually obsessive monk in order be 3 beings, since 3 was considered a mystical number.) Basically, that they are three facets of a single being.
Frothy you did not ask a question but you did have a wrong assumption.

The Holy Ghost is present in Genesis 1:2.....And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters.

The Spirit of God is the Holy Ghost.

Have a great day buddy!

Blade
 

Bladerunner

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I believe I would be careful not to commit 'blasphemy against the Holy Spirit'. It is an unpardonable sin. Matthew 12:31....."Therefore I say to you, any sin and blasphemy shall be forgiven people, but blasphemy against the Spirit shall not be forgiven.


Please be very careful.

Have a Great evening...The rain here is almost over.

Blade
 

Bladerunner

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The Holy Trinity is a construct of Catholic origin (which means that, as the AntiChrist, Blade should actually be opposing it) meant to reconcile Jesus and God against the idea that there is only one god.
*

Creation of Universe
God(Father): Psalm 102:25
Christ (The Son): Colossians 1: 16 , John 1: 1 - 3
Holy Spirit : Genesis 1: 2, Job 26: 13

Creation of Man
God(Father): Genesis 2: 7
Christ (The Son): Collassians 1: 16
Holy Spirit : JOB 33: 4

Incarnation
God(Father): Hebrews 10: 5
Christ (The Son): Philippians 2: 7
Holy Spirit : Luke 1: 35

Death of Christ
God(Father): Psalm 22: 15, Romans 8:32, John 3: 16
Christ (The Son): John 10: 18, Galatians 2: 20
Holy Spirit : Hebrews 9: 14

* These facts attributed to Khouse.org

The above events in the Bible are attributed to each of the above, The Trinity. Since the Father(God) and Holy Spirit started it in Genesis and the Son (Jesus Christ) would come later.

Far be it from me to think that the Catholic leaders would try to take all the credit...However both them and You, Frothy are WRONG!

Frothy,,,,,there are another 29 of these events that are attributed to all three and hundreds of Plural vs Singularity of the Godhead..

Have a Blessed day, everybody deserves one every now and then..

Blade
 
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Bladerunner

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See, told you we'd get some long, drawn-out, self-contradictory gibberish trying to explain how Jesus didn't really didn't mean it when he said that people who didn't help the needy were going to Hell.

It's just sad that Blade can't see how deluded and self-contradictory his pathetic excuses for arguments are.

Some day, Blade, you really do need to face up to the fact that you have read the message of your own savior, and you have rejected it. You are, by any definition of the words, both heretic and apostate, and you're too deluded to even realize it.

It is very obvious that you did not read it Frothy yet you cut it.
 

Frothingslosh

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Oh, I read it. I found it to be self-contradictory, poorly-written idiocy bordering on gibberish, but I did waste a couple of minutes of my life reading that tripe.

And since when is pointing out to you that you believe the exact OPPOSITE of what Jesus says in the Bible 'blaspheming against the Holy Ghost'? Hubris much?
 

Alc

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See, told you we'd get some long, drawn-out, self-contradictory gibberish trying to explain how Jesus didn't really didn't mean it when he said that people who didn't help the needy were going to Hell.

It's just sad that Blade can't see how deluded and self-contradictory his pathetic excuses for arguments are.

Some day, Blade, you really do need to face up to the fact that you have read the message of your own savior, and you have rejected it. You are, by any definition of the words, both heretic and apostate, and you're too deluded to even realize it.
Like I said - you could look at a quote along the lines of "...and Jesus said that the sky was blue" and someone would find a way to interpret that as:
> literal (the sky IS blue
> somehow meaning the opposite - as Jesus was quite the tricky little monkey and liked to talk in riddles
> having a hidden meaning along the lines of "we can only have clear skies ahead of us if we stop giving help to the poor and needy"

There was an old game who in the UK called 321 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ckf_6GiLO1E
It was famous for very cryptic and - the host admitted years later - bullsh*t clues. I imagine old JC could have fit right in as a presenter.
 

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This is what I don't get. How the heck were the contemporary audience to these parables supposed to reference other chapters of the Bible? Were these teachings meaningless without such a cross reference?

Occam's Razor springs to mind.
 

Alc

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This is what I don't get. How the heck were the contemporary audience to these parables supposed to reference other chapters of the Bible? Were these teachings meaningless without such a cross reference?

Occam's Razor springs to mind.
Ah, but does it not say in Magnificent:7 that the lord our God likes to test our faith? If there were any sort of proof, faith would be unnecessary.
Oceans:11 and Rocky:3 also both speak of this.
 

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