Are you an atheist?

[Orthodox Dave]

I have come to this forum 10 years late and (sorry) haven't read all the posts. But I have a very simple point.

Either (a) matter created or evolved into intelligence
Or (b) intelligence was always there (and perhaps created matter).

I find (a) requires more faith than (b). On balance I lean towards (b).

That doesn't mean I believe in an "old man in the sky", or evangelicalism, or disbelieve in evolution.

My IQ was measured in the top 2% so don't let's pretend all believers are stupid.

Also don't assume most scientists are atheists - see this survey:
https://phys.org/news/2015-12-worldwide-survey-religion-science-scientists.html

 

[Galaxiom]

I have come to this forum 10 years late and (sorry) haven't read all the posts. But I have a very simple point.

Either (a) matter created or evolved into intelligence
Or (b) intelligence was always there (and perhaps created matter).

I find (a) requires more faith than (b). On balance I lean towards (b).

Science doesn't require faith.

The universe exists as because of the fundamental drive to maximise disorder such that nothing would exist. However, in an infinite random nothing, having all points the same would require infinite order. Consequently some amount of order is inevitable in any infinite system. It is the fundamental nature of randomness.

This tiny amount of order that resulted in a single pixel of pure amorphous energy currently known as the Big Bang. Science can trace the progression from this single pixel to everything we see now using a small number of very simple laws.

Those laws are based on random fundamental constants. These constants in our universe happen to be those which make matter and life possible.

Contrary to the claims of the faithful, the constants in our universe do not need to be chosen by a god. Scientists estimate there may be as many as 10^500 different combinations of the constants. Most of these universes would barely exist before disappearing again.

Other universes where the the constants are not so fortuitous do not result in intelligent being that are able to contemplate existence. As such it should be no surprise that the constants in our universe are those which allow life.

Matter to intelligence is simple because intelligence is selected for.

Any form of intelligence requires highly ordered complexity. The notion that that this could exist before anything that drives such complexity breaches the fundamental nature of randomness.

A belief in gods requires faith and is in conflict with natural order. There can be no logical reason to believe that intelligence came before matter. As such all who believe in gods as the origin of existence are manifestly irrational, generally because of their childhood indoctrination.

 

[The_Doc_Man]

The work of Alan Turing, who was certainly a genius, is most popularly remembered for his contributions to breaking the Enigma code during WW II. What is less remembered is his research on the tendency of simple components to migrate to complex combinations solely through natural law.

OrthodoxDave, you claim genius-level IQ. But the question I have for you is, from where do/did you get your religious ideas? Did you derive them from analysis or did your parents instill that faith in you while you were still a child? Because if it is the latter, then you have not yet faced the necessary cognitive dissonance that would help you overcome their propagation of religion for yet another generation.

There is a problem that you need to examine using that genius brain of yours - can intelligence exist without a supporting matrix? And if so, how? Your (b) choice obviously denies the need for a matrix. You are therefore going to have to decide how a disembodied intelligence operates, because otherwise you have turned a blind eye towards your own first cause.

I happen to believe that intelligence requires a "home" - a place to be supported - in order to function. To say that an intelligence was "always there and perhaps created matter" is a religious belief even if not founded in any organized religion.

I grew up in a religious family but at some point I had my cognitive dissonance in which I realized that my parents were merely repeating the lies they were told by THEIR parents (and that were reinforced by those whose BUSINESS it is to propagate those lies - i.e. the preachers).

To me, it is EASY to imagine primitive Man, who wants to believe he can explain things, to suddenly face the unexplainable. But his easy-way-out solution is the first variant of "God-did-it" in cave-man talk. As science pushes back the boundaries of the unexplainable, it becomes less and less necessary to resort to any variant of "God-did-it" and to instead point to some basic scientific principle.

I have a problem with "God-did-it" as an answer since it instantly leads to more questions. ALL of those questions, if allowed to continue, would burst the God bubble. Questions such as "WHY God-did-it" (and the attempt to stifle that question is usually some drivel like "because we are not meant to know the mind of God" or "God works in mysterious ways.") And there are the other branches of questions like "How did that God come into being?" Which leads to the "God was always there" - which then leads to "but since the universe WASN'T always there in this form, where was God?" And then you need to define some place where this intelligence could exist but it has to be outside the current universe. And THAT doesn't require more faith? Puh-leeze, gimme a break.

 

[Frothingslosh]

To be fair, you can be top 2% without being a genius. Top 2% of IQ is 'merely' 130 IQ, while genius, as determined by IQ, begins at 140. (That 140, by the way, is roughly 1 in 260.)

Also, Orthodox Dave: Waving your IQ around here is kind of pointless. There are a number of actual geniuses who post here, and I don't know ANY genius who puts that much value in straight IQ. What you DO with it is significantly more important.

 

[Orthodox Dave]

Thank you Doc Man for taking the time and trouble to explain your carefully-considered and honest view. It is very much appreciated.

One thing we can both agree on is that life is a very precious and rare commodity in the universe, although we now have it within our capabilities to destroy it.

Not all of our leaders are rational. But I have to say that if I were to choose between George W Bush and Joseph Stalin as leaders, I would choose GW every time (distasteful as that thought is!) Quite possibly Joseph Stalin was a more intelligent man. But Joseph Stalin was an atheist and, as a result, he saw no problem in murdering millions when he felt it expedient for him or his grand ideas, or for "the people". GW, believing there is a being that will hold him to account, will at least partly hold himself back.

Yes, religion has been, at least indirectly, the cause of countless bloody conflicts in history. But the deaths from religious wars are vastly dwarfed by the genocides brought about by Stalin, Mao, Pol Pot and Hitler during the 20th century. These guys also happened to be atheists. That is looking at it dispassionately - it is a fact.

That is not a proof that God exists of course. But I sometimes think even if God didn't exist he would need to be invented to hold such men back from doing the unspeakable!

In answer to your question, my parents weren't really religious, and certainly never rammed religion down my throat. In fact I came to it through the very cognitive dissonance you mention, long after leaving home. I believe strongly that no-one should try to force anyone else to believe. Such a belief would be false anyway.

We human beings are multi-dimensional. By which I mean, yes we have a rational / scientific side. But there is another side that is equally valid, the side that embraces love, music, art and beauty. Cognitive dissonance theory shows that these different sides should be in harmony, not at war with each other. I don't buy the idea that religion and science are mutually exclusive.

I am not out to convert you or anyone else to my way of thinking, but rather my vision is for a world where we can all live together in mutual respect. The view of many in today's culture is that religion is "thankfully" in its dying gasps, the last vestiges of which are clung to in fear by stupid people. I wanted to show in my clumsy way that at least some of those people are not entirely stupid, but rather have thought it through and find it is a more harmonious way of life.

 

[Orthodox Dave]

Also, Orthodox Dave: Waving your IQ around here is kind of pointless. There are a number of actual geniuses who post here, and I don't know ANY genius who puts that much value in straight IQ. What you DO with it is significantly more important.

Actually Frothingslosh, I couldn't agree more. I am sorry. I never normally do this and nor do I agree with it. In this case, I merely wanted to make the point for anyone who assumes religious people are stupid. In fact IQ just shows you can solve problems, that sort of thing, but you can have a sky high IQ and be completely inept socially and culturally.

 

[The_Doc_Man]

Dave, regarding atheists such as Pol Pot, Stalin, and Mao as perpetrators of genocide vs. the Crusades and the Inquisition: Pol Pot, Stalin, and Mao did not perform genocides in the name of atheism. They did it for raw power as a way to suppress resistance to their rule. The religious wars, however, are done "for the love of God" or "in the name of God" - which totally nauseates me.

We absolutely do agree on the value of life. However, the value of life has no direct bearing on the validity of a religious belief. And depending on whether you are a shepherd looking for sheep or a butcher looking for lambs to be slaughtered, life may have a very different purpose for you than it does for others.

Machiavelli said it: The object of power is power. And for Stalin, Mao, and Pol Pot, the object of their actions was to cement their power. It was not to force people into atheism. The object of Torquemada and of the Crusader Kings was to force people into Christianity. Therefore, when you speak of genocide as part of an argument, you have to consider the reason for it.

 

[Galaxiom]

But Joseph Stalin was an atheist and, as a result, he saw no problem in murdering millions when he felt it expedient for him or his grand ideas, or for "the people". GW, believing there is a being that will hold him to account, will at least partly hold himself back.

Far from holding him back, GW believed God was on his side. He prayed to God for guidance on the Weapons of Mass Destruction in Iraq and invaded, rather than accept the findings of the international inspectors who correctly found that there were no WMDs.

Vast numbers of Iraqis died in the illegal war. British PM Tony Blair and Australian PM John Howard likewise decided to go with their God's guidance. All three should have been convicted of crimes against humanity.

Yes, religion has been, at least indirectly, the cause of countless bloody conflicts in history. But the deaths from religious wars are vastly dwarfed by the genocides brought about by Stalin, Mao, Pol Pot and Hitler during the 20th century. These guys also happened to be atheists. That is looking at it dispassionately - it is a fact.

Hitler was not an atheist. Moreover, the church has never excommunicated him, which says a lot about their values.

 

[The_Doc_Man]

and Hitler during the 20th century. These guys also happened to be atheists. That is looking at it dispassionately - it is a fact.

Not completely factual. Hitler was Catholic, at least nominally. His soldiers wore belt buckles embossed with "Gott mitt uns" = German for "God with us."

 

[The_Doc_Man]

Now and then I will review old posts like this for potential changes or progress. I noted that in mid-February of 2018, around post 5975 give or take a few, we had a discussion about how priests had been getting away with all sorts of improper behavior. In the last half of 2018, some of those scandals finally erupted. The Vatican is neck-deep in damage control and has (finally!) decided to start "outing" the molesters.

The actions by the Archdiocese of Philadelphia is one step that is the beginning of a LONG journey for too many people who have been carrying their burdens for too long. Let us hope that SOME healing can come from this action. Let us ALSO hope that it is not going to be a case of "throw the dogs a bone and hope they will stop growling."

 

[Galaxiom]

In the last half of 2018, some of those scandals finally erupted. The Vatican is neck-deep in damage control and has (finally!) decided to start "outing" the molesters.

The highest Vatican official yet to be convicted is Cardinal George Pell, the head of finances which is usually considered number three in the power lineup.

He was whisked away to the Vatican during the Australian Royal Commission into institutional child abuse after giving evidence in cases where other priests were repeatedly moved to new parishes after allegations of child abuse. Pell and others were accused of covering up these crimes.

This time he has been convicted of sexually abusing two boys himself.

There is a reporting ban of his case in Australia.

His opening remark in the Royal Commission was "Suffer little children, come unto me". It was sickening coming from a man who was responsible for so much suffering.

 

[murphybridget]

I'd give that a go. The cloud would be nice and soft to sit on and I like making music. Don't suppose they would let me swap the harp for a guitar? I am a singer but I always wish I could play guitar too.

The other side is pretty scary though.

"Welcome to Heaven, here is your harp."
"Welcome to Hell, here is your piano accordion"

Could you imagine any better image of acoustic hell?.

I wonder if you get lessons in how to play?

Accordion in Hell, well, some might call it an acquired taste. But who knows, you might bring some musical magic to the underworld!

 

[Jon]

Whether or not Hitler was an atheist is irrelevant. History is littered with evil murderous acts by religious people. Just look at all the suicide bombings in recent times, for example. Or those being beheaded on the streets of London.

Hitler believed many things that each and everyone of us also believe, including the beliefs of religious people. Hitler liked dogs. Should we put all dog owners on anti-Semitism trials? Or perhaps ban dogs because Hitler liked them? Hitler liked spaghetti. Shall we suggest that all Italians are Jew haters?

It is called a "fallacy by association".

Association fallacy - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Plenty of people have seen Jesus in their burnt toast. Shall we make them all the Pope?

 

[Isaac]

Plenty of people have seen Jesus in their burnt toast.

ha ha

 

[conception_native_0123]

Plenty of people have seen Jesus in their burnt toast.

and in the sun Jon.

 

[Jon]

I just had an idea. Christmas is, technically speaking, for the religious. You get Christmas plays of the birth of Jesus, where the wise men brought gifts of gold, frankincense and myrrh.

How about one for atheists? The three wise men are Bill Gates, Steve Jobs and Elon Musk. They bring gifts of thumbdrives, RAM and bolt on CPU power for the birth of an AI monstronsity that takes over the world. I can see it happening! Or is it kinda already happening?

 

[Isaac]

Maybe they've already become one big jumbled mess - already. At Christmas, while we're supposed to be remembering the reason it started aka Jesus saving the world, instead we mostly go out and buy electronics and gadget gifts - such as thumb drives and various computering stuff.

Jesus gets left in the dust of our starry eyed consumerism and Gates, Jobs and Musk (and Bezos) definitely get worshipped.

 

[Mike Krailo]

I just had an idea. Christmas is, technically speaking, for the religious. You get Christmas plays of the birth of Jesus, where the wise men brought gifts of gold, frankincense and myrrh.

How about one for atheists? The three wise men are Bill Gates, Steve Jobs and Elon Musk. They bring gifts of thumbdrives, RAM and bolt on CPU power for the birth of an AI monstronsity that takes over the world. I can see it happening! Or is it kinda already happening?

Ba Humbug day? Scrooge day?

The ultimate fruit that will come out of AI tech will be the tiny nano chip that goes into your forehead and neutralizes your personality and aggression as soon as it is installed, and makes you completely dependent on the beast. Mandatory worship of the beast on Friday's.

 

[Galaxiom]

At Christmas, while we're supposed to be remembering the reason it started aka Jesus saving the world,

The festival of the solstice predates the attempts by Christians to usurp it for their own morbid story about an angry god who demands the death of innocents to atone for sins.

The decorated tree and giving gifts are part of that tradition.

 

[Crash101]

Gents and Ladies,

I am educated and believe in God. I struggle with some religious concepts around God however. Looking the remarkable way that science and how so many things are inter-related, it seems highly improbable there is no God. Life as we know it only accounts for 15% of what is known according to the mass of matter in the entire Universe. What is in the remaining 85%? who knows and I know that for us to be here through coincidence is unlikely as there is nothing as a coincidence. Life can not just be a fluke of quarks and quazars and other sub atomic particles and the randomness of everything.

Consider water for example. It is a very simple molecule but it allows for the transport of many things and it is one of the only liquids that is denser than its solid. This provides an amazing media for communication down to the Cellular level. If it didnt have 2 lone pairs on the oxygen molecule, it would not do what it does for sure. Is that a fluke? I dont believe in Coincidences!!