Butt Out CIA

[Len Boorman]

Extract from Daily Telegraph

Sorry US Folks but this is not on.

CIA has access to your bank records
By Philip Johnston, Home Affairs Editor
(Filed: 28/06/2006)



The bank transaction records of millions of people in Britain and around the world may have been disclosed illegally to US intelligence agencies as part of the Bush administration's counter-terrorism programme, privacy campaigners said yesterday.

CIA agents and US treasury officials have been secretly monitoring financial transactions routed through Swift, the Brussels-based, industry-owned co-operative that links 7,800 financial institutions in more than 200 countries.


Swift links financial institutions worldwide


Swift, an acronym for the Society for Worldwide Interbank Financial Telecommunication, provides electronic instructions for transfers between virtually every bank, brokerage house, and stock exchange and routes 11 million transactions each day.

The Terrorist Finance Tracking Program was disclosed by the New York Times and the Los Angeles Times, which said they had been pressed by the administration not to divulge its existence.

American officials denied that it amounted to an invasion of privacy and said it was vital to anti-terrorism operations. It means Washington may have access not only to financial data on its own citizens but everyone else's too.

An agreement with Swift to hand over the transaction records was reached after September 11 but has never been divulged until now.

John Snow, the US treasury secretary, said disclosure of the information was subject to ''very significant safeguards'' and had proved useful to the anti-terror operations, though there were no specific examples of how it had helped.

In a statement, Swift said it had negotiated with the US treasury "over the scope and oversight of the subpoenas". Under the deal, counter-terrorism analysts can ask Swift to look for information on activities by suspected terrorists as part of specific terrorism investigations.

Swift said the agreement concerned ''limited sets of data from the office of foreign assets control of the department of the treasury''. It added: ''Our fundamental principle has been to preserve the confidentiality of our users' data while complying with the lawful obligations in countries where we operate."

Privacy International, a campaign group, filed simultaneous complaints with data protection and privacy regulators, including Britain's, in an attempt to uncover the scale of the exercise. Simon Davies, the group's director, said: ''We know very little, but it seems that the data are being sent regardless of people's nationality. If blanket authorisations are being given for millions of records, it would be impossible to separate them out.''

He said the activity was undertaken without regard to legal process under data protection law, and that the disclosures were made without any legal basis or authority whatever.



What are your opinions

Len B

 

[Rich]

I note that Bush and Chenny accused the Washington Post of treason and aiding terrorism by divulging the truth.
So much for freedom of the press

 

[ShaneMan]

I note that Bush and Chenny accused the Washington Post of treason and aiding terrorism by divulging the truth.
So much for freedom of the press

It was the New York Post. Should it be called freedom of press when the press releases information about a countries war time strategies? I think it is treason, when I newspaper cares more about selling their papers than it does being loyal to their country.

 

[Vassago]

This is absolutely insane. This administration feels they can get away with everything by playing on terrorism. Does anyone else feel like the Bush Administration are terrorists themselves? They encompass the very definition of a terrorist. They made the American people believe that there were terrorists threats in the world in order to get our backing by making us fear "weapons of mass destruction" and terrorist attacks in order to get what they want. They used our fear to accomplish their goals and they continue to get away with it.

I'm thinking of starting a website....BushIsATerrorist.com. Of course I would host it outside the US to avoid Big Brother snooping. Can anyone recommend a webhost outside the US?

 

[Vassago]

It was the New York Post. Should it be called freedom of press when the press releases information about a countries war time strategies? I think it is treason, when I newspaper cares more about selling their papers than it does being loyal to their country.

And how is this a wartime act? There are terrorist threats at ALL times/ Does that mean every country is always ni war? How can this be called a "war"?

I'm sure part of the New York Posts strategies involved making money, but the bulk of it is to work for US! The American Citizens who are ignorant and don't have the knowledge that our civil liberties are being restricted due to an overbearing and radical government. It's about time us as American citizens became more aware of what our own government is doing to attack our privacy and liberties fought for so many years ago that our country was founded on! These things are being taken away from us!!!

 

[ShaneMan]

And how is this a wartime act? There are terrorist threats at ALL times/ Does that mean every country is always ni war? How can this be called a "war"?

I'm sure part of the New York Posts strategies involved making money, but the bulk of it is to work for US! The American Citizens who are ignorant and don't have the knowledge that our civil liberties are being restricted due to an overbearing and radical government. It's about time us as American citizens became more aware of what our own government is doing to attack our privacy and liberties fought for so many years ago that our country was founded on! These things are being taken away from us!!!

I did not say a "war time act." I said giving away war time strategies. Even the Demy's had said getting to their money would help to weaken terrorist. Then we do it and now everyone is hollering like a pig under a fence. "How can this be called a war?" In case you haven't notice, whether you agree with it or not, we have soldiers that are fighting in a foreign country. What else would it be called?

 

[ShaneMan]

This is absolutely insane. This administration feels they can get away with everything by playing on terrorism. Does anyone else feel like the Bush Administration are terrorists themselves?

No! I think it's insane to make such a ridiculous claim.

 

[TessB]

I hate political debates because they often turn personal.
However, I'm putting my 2 cents in and saying, Yes.... I do feel Mr. Bush has had a major role in my terror and is therefore a "terrorist" to me. I am made to be fearful about expressing my opinions to the majority of brainwashed Americans that I live among in this Ultra Republican state of Florida. If I dissent, I am labeled "Anti-American" or "Unpatriotic".

Just the other day, a law BANNING the burning of the American flag was voted down... by ONE vote. I was happy about it myself, but the morning radio screamed in outrage.

Now, if I see foreigners on TV burning an American flag, I think "They HATE us!" And, that makes me a little afraid, of course, because Mr. Bush says they want to kill me. But when American citizens burn their own flag, I don't think they're going to bomb anything or kill anyone... I think they're REALLY pissed at something in particular and are actively working to express their displeasure and affect a change in government.

But, now we have "free speech zones" where the protesters of whatever can gather.... miles away from any televised political event where only fervid supporters of the government are welcomed so they can perpetuate the bullshit, turn film into propaganda, and brainwash even MORE people into believing that all of America is 100% in support of whatever Mr. Bush does. And by the way, Jesus doesn't love you if you aren't a Republican...

I feel sick. These people have WAY too much power.

 

[ShaneMan]

And by the way, Jesus doesn't love you if you aren't a Republican...

Have you actually heard this?

 

[Vassago]

Thank you Tess. As a fellow Floridian, I understand your fear of being determined anitpatriotic, but I want to bring on another point on why Florida has been labelled so "pro-republican" as of late.

Most of the younger generation I have spoken with (actually all if I really thinka bout it) dislike the Bush administration completely. When the 2004 elections were taking place. There was a new law passed in Florida by no other than our great governer relative to the president under the carpet that stated you must register at least 30 days to vote before the date of the election. Most states allow voting within a much shorter time frame, including many states that allow voting on the same day as registration. Almost everyone I know who intended to vote, did not get to because of this law. It's ridiculous to think that there isn't a conspiracy within the Bush administration that caused this to happen.

I am not in any way pro one political party or another. I only want honesty from our government and I feel that we currently do not recieve that. I am as pro-American as one can be because I believe in standing up for what this country is SUPPOSED to stand for, not what it currently does.

I claim Bush as a terrorist because it's exactly what he did. He caused false fear in the American people by claiming weapons of mass destruction and he continues to do this in one way or another. He made Americans fear for their lives every day. How anyone could not see this is beyond me. You call this idea insane, but you have no evidence to rebute my claims?

This is NOT a war. A war you claim against an enemy you can identify. Terrorists are not even an identifiable enemy! There have always been terrorists in the world and there always will be. The unibomber was a terrorist. The Columbine kids, they were terrorists. As I pointed out, we have one in office.

I hate political talk as well, but I really hate when people take such a one sided approach to things. Americans need to think more outside the box. Will we allow all of our freedoms to be taken away because of fear?

 

[ShaneMan]

I hate political talk as well, but I really hate when people take such a one sided approach to things. Americans need to think more outside the box. Will we allow all of our freedoms to be taken away because of fear?

I'm not a fan of political talk either. It's doesn't get you anywhere. You say you hate when people take such a one sided approach to things. To me, this is exactly what your doing, so at this point is why talking politics and religion usually doesn't do anything but make the tires spin. I always say, people see things the way they want to and usually nothing changes their mind. I'll hold my comments from here cause I would rather not get frustrated or cause you frustration.

 

[TessB]

Shane,

Vass didn't introduce religion into the equation, I did.
And, I don't think Vass is being one-sided... although I may be.
"Jesus doesn't love you if you're not a Republican" Have I actually heard those words? Uh... no... but I was in church for SEVERAL years and everything I heard from the pulpit was in support of the Republican spin. Democrats were called "Demoncrats" And yes... I HAVE heard that... directly from the pulpit.

Now, I'm not saying that if the Demoncrats were in power that I would be happy with everything they did. Actually, no matter which political party is in "power", I don't trust them. They aren't looking out for America. They are looking out for the people that back them. THEY are Anti-Americans! THEY are UnPatriotic! THEY are selling this country down the river!

And, yes... they are taking the UK down the river with us. Where will we end up?

My gut says to scream "REVOLT!" and yet the current undertow in my country stuns me into fear of screaming that word. I fear we are turning into Nazi Germany, little by little... day by day. I may be saying something extremely unpopular in my next utterance..... (oh... so unlike my last sentence... lol)... but I understand how the good people of Germany fell victim to the powers of the Nazi Government. I honestly believe that the majority of Germany most likely consisted of wonderful, caring, good people that were brow-beaten by fear into subjection and submission until they all chanted "Heil!"

You know what? My husband said.... you may be right, but you may not want to send that post. I wonder if he's afraid the Bush administration may find this "Anti-American" sentiment and burn our house down.

 

[Rich]

I did not say a "war time act." I said giving away war time strategies. Even the Demy's had said getting to their money would help to weaken terrorist. Then we do it and now everyone is hollering like a pig under a fence. "How can this be called a war?" In case you haven't notice, whether you agree with it or not, we have soldiers that are fighting in a foreign country. What else would it be called?

That war was based on a lie and our idiot of a so called leader got us dragged into it too

 

[Rich]

I claim Bush as a terrorist because it's exactly what he did.

Bush never stops finding ways to harm Americans and neither do we.
I may have got that the wrong way around

 

[Vassago]

I am certainly not one sided and I too agree that political debates can be touchy and are best left for mature individuals unlike myself. I just can't think of much good the Bush administration has done. I also agree with Tess that most government officials are only in it to back the people who pay the most money as well. They are nothing more than pawns for the corporations, gas, computers, music, movies, etc. A little money will buy you a politician.

Oh well, maybe my trip to Japan will clear my head.

 

[ColinEssex]

Oh well, maybe my trip to Japan will clear my head.

Strange isn't it that 60 years ago, Japan was the USA's worst enemy - a country that killed and tortured 1000's of Americans, paying no attention to the Geneva Convention.

Now they are best buddies Yet Japan has never formally apologised for their atrocities to the US soldiers

Maybe the USA will once again (in time) befriend the Taliban or Al Quaida

It wasn't so long ago the USA armed the Taliban to fight the USSR for them

Col

 

[Len Boorman]

Quite interesting posts.

I actually expected that there would be commments by the Brits (no too hard I hoped) having a dig at the CIA. It was not the intention to provoke any flaming, really interested in the differing views.

It seems that it is those across the pond that are most fired up about the subject however.

As for me.

keep money under mattress where CIA cannot see it....I think

Len

 

[ColinEssex]

There was a programme on satellite TV a few months ago (produced by the BBC I think) which investigated the "activities" of the CIA. Plus of course their activities (the CIA's) were included in the Fahrenheit 9/11 film.

Anyway, in the programme it seemed to me that the CIA were a "western" version of the old USSR secret police or even Hitlers Gestapo.
The CIA have carte blanche to do anything they like, arrest whomever they choose on no real grounds (apart from looking Asian).
Then they also penetrate other countries "undercover" to report back to the white house what is happening around the globe.
As we know, this "intelligence" information is about as robust as a wooden house in New Orleans

Col

 

[dan-cat]

I think the CIA are on a hiding to nothing.

The fact is, undercover operations only work if they are just that, undercover. We could demand that all undercover operations are exposed to the public but what would that entail? The exposure of same to the enemy.

It's very simple. If we are going to find ways of stopping psychotics from blowing up buses or flying planes into buildings, the first step is not to tell them how we are going to do it.

So all that aside, we are left with the decision to either trust our authority to perform these operations responsibly or not.

The problem is, is that undercover operations can't justify themselves by broadcasting their achievements. Would terrorism in the developed world be worse without these operations? We certainly know how bad it can be without appropriate security but we don't know for sure their benefits

So it's a personal opinion as to who is being more invasive. The terrorist or the counter-terrorism system.

 

[ColinEssex]

I think the CIA are on a hiding to nothing.

The fact is, undercover operations only work if they are just that, undercover. We could demand that all undercover operations are exposed to the public but what would that entail? The exposure of same to the enemy.

It's very simple. If we are going to find ways of stopping psychotics from blowing up buses or flying planes into buildings, the first step is not to tell them how we are going to do it.

So all that aside, we are left with the decision to either trust our authority to perform these operations responsibly or not.

The problem is, is that undercover operations can't justify themselves by broadcasting their achievements. Would terrorism in the developed world be worse without these operations? We certainly know how bad it can be without appropriate security but we don't know for sure their benefits

So it's a personal opinion as to who is being more invasive. The terrorist or the counter-terrorism system.

Interesting reply Dan. Its impossible to say if things are better or worse with or without 'undercover' espionage.

There is one thing though (and this is NOT a knock at the USA ) It seems to me and others here that the US government just can't wait to tell the world about what its doing - undercover or not. Quite often we are surprised to see a spokesman or military person detailing exactly how things were / are done. I get the feeling the word "undercover" and "secret" are absent from the government dictionary.

For example, every now and then some spokesman says exactly where the US troops are in Afghanistan searching for Bin-Laden, I've even seen them point it out on a map Not only does this tell the "enemy" where their target is, it also tells the "enemy" where to go next to avoid capture.

In the UK, the MI5 and MI6 tend to be fairly secret, I'm not sure I want to know exactly what they do to try to keep us safe.

Col