Shooting of little Rhys Jones!! (1 Viewer)

qailoh

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What do you suggest that a community can do to prevent these sorts of incidents... for instance should there be more outlets for young people rather than violence?
Should there be more community policing from members of the community?

Should parenting skills be looked at?

What do you think?

Valid questions, and I'm sorry I don't have time at the moment (all staff meeting in a few minutes) to give a fully considered response, but I do think they are worth a continuing discussion. To make a long story short I do think most violent crime stems from a basic inability of the perpetrators to view other people as people. Causes, poor parenting, bad cultural role models, etc, solutions..? definitely would require a longer time to discuss than I have at the moment.

In the UK, gun violence is increasing.
In the US it has peaked and in many of the worse places it is beginning to decline.

Why not have the British police check with the US police and see what steps they have taken to bring this about?

The fact that the communication may be only one way is hardly a reason to dismiss it out of hand.

Gun violence is declining here? I'd like to see the stats on that...

One thing I'd like to point out is that prison sentences for crimes committed with a firearm are a lot harsher than for crimes that aren't. The trial I served on was for Murder 2nd degree (a stabbing) and Attempted Murder (a shooting). Now that a verdict's been reached I can mention some details. The defendant was found guilty on both counts. No death penalty for 2nd degree, but since the attempted was committed with a firearm, he got the maximum, 50 years to life with no parole. I'd think that knowing that if you shoot someone you'd spend the rest of your life in prison would deter someone so inclined.
 

GaryPanic

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or.. make it not worthing giving up just shoot your way out and go in a blaze of glory or gorey..
g
 

scott-atkinson

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or.. make it not worthing giving up just shoot your way out and go in a blaze of glory or gorey..
g

I've changed my mind I won't vote for you :p

How fickle the world of politics :D
 

scott-atkinson

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One thing I'd like to point out is that prison sentences for crimes committed with a firearm are a lot harsher than for crimes that aren't. The trial I served on was for Murder 2nd degree (a stabbing) and Attempted Murder (a shooting). Now that a verdict's been reached I can mention some details. The defendant was found guilty on both counts. No death penalty for 2nd degree, but since the attempted was committed with a firearm, he got the maximum, 50 years to life with no parole. I'd think that knowing that if you shoot someone you'd spend the rest of your life in prison would deter someone so inclined.

See now these are the kinds of sentences that the UK needs to adopt, not the mamby pamby approach that our courts take with the Human Rights brigade looking over their shoulder.

Once again as I have said on previous threads if you commit a crime against another person, you should automtically have your Human Rights revoked.
 

Alc

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I've changed my mind I won't vote for you :p
There you go, Gary, don't you wish you'd at least done something scandalous involving some sort of vice, to lose the voters' confidence? :D
 

ColinEssex

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Look, the kid got shot and died. Get over it. It happens.

Why the fuss over one kid? Because it's in the UK? How about the millions dying daily of starvation, the ones that have no hope when they're born. Or the ones forced to work in sweat shops to produce our Nike trainers or T shirts?

Closed eyes from the west? oh yes, we gesture at helping them - but do we really or is it to make us 'feel' we've done something? I remember the Band Aid in 1985 and the one a couple of years ago - apart from the aging of pop stars that sang, nothing seems to have changed.

We are all guilty - not just the USA or UK or Europe generally. We basically ignore it all, we could sort it - but we'd rather spend billions on a crappy war or stupid space exploration or some other money wasting idea.

I get sick of the posts where it's "they should do this" or that - listen - nothing will happen to make a significant difference to gun culture in the UK or USA or Germany or France or wherever, just feeble gestures. Gun and knife culture will flourish and we'll have to live with it unbtil we get someone who can take it by the balls and squeeze it until it begs for mercy.

Col
 

voidcranium

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Look, the kid got shot and died. Get over it. It happens.

Why the fuss over one kid? Because it's in the UK? How about the millions dying daily of starvation, the ones that have no hope when they're born. Or the ones forced to work in sweat shops to produce our Nike trainers or T shirts?

Closed eyes from the west? oh yes, we gesture at helping them - but do we really or is it to make us 'feel' we've done something? I remember the Band Aid in 1985 and the one a couple of years ago - apart from the aging of pop stars that sang, nothing seems to have changed.

We are all guilty - not just the USA or UK or Europe generally. We basically ignore it all, we could sort it - but we'd rather spend billions on a crappy war or stupid space exploration or some other money wasting idea.

I get sick of the posts where it's "they should do this" or that - listen - nothing will happen to make a significant difference to gun culture in the UK or USA or Germany or France or wherever, just feeble gestures. Gun and knife culture will flourish and we'll have to live with it unbtil we get someone who can take it by the balls and squeeze it until it begs for mercy.

Col


Mankind will find a way to kill each other; with rock, stick, knife, sword, gun or Nuke.
We will always find a way to kill each other.

It won't matter how many laws or restrictions you pass.
 

ColinEssex

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Mankind will find a way to kill each other; with rock, stick, knife, sword, gun or Nuke.
We will always find a way to kill each other.

It won't matter how many laws or restrictions you pass.

Thats true. It seems mankind is never happier than when they're killing others for whatever petty cause.

Plus, in major events there is usually a religious reason for the killing of thousands.

It's like fleas arguing and fighting over who owns the dog - the dog will still be there long after the fleas have died of old age.

Col
 

statsman

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I'm curious why the gun makers do not have to account for their weapons the way drug makers have to account for their narcotics. The paper work (in Canada anyways) for minor drugs like coedine boggles the mind.
If you made a company that makes guns subject to the same restrictions it would be a start. Somewhere down the chain someone sold the gun illegally to the criminal. That person should be held accountable as well.
These restrictions would be minor compared to the restrictions on ammunition.

Of course, people would still be murdered but the other methods such as knives are intimate, you have to get right beside your victim before you can strike. You can't do it impersonally from 30 feet away.
 
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Pauldohert

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Of course, people would still be murdered but the other methods such as knives are intimate, you have to get right beside your victim before you can strike. You can't do it impersonally from 30 feet away.

A knife thrower could do you from 30 feet!:eek:
 

GaryPanic

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There you go, Gary, don't you wish you'd at least done something scandalous involving some sort of vice, to lose the voters' confidence? :D

Don't worry - Secretly - I was taking the funds away and lining my own nest , just like the other policticans.

No what I was talking about is if their is possibility of parole, then why give yourself up ...

I would still bang these people up, and have a parole system, but it would be based upon common sense, parole in my eyes would be more akin to an open prison set up, yes you can go out and intergrate with the public , but you must return to your room by say 9, oclock....

you can get a job, earn money , even go on hoiday - but it must be approved - once you have serve your complete sentence ,x amount of hard time and x amount of parole time then your slate is wiped clean (depending on the crime of course).

May be I will get the vote back ...
 

scott-atkinson

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Don't worry - Secretly - I was taking the funds away and lining my own nest , just like the other policticans.

No what I was talking about is if their is possibility of parole, then why give yourself up ...

I would still bang these people up, and have a parole system, but it would be based upon common sense, parole in my eyes would be more akin to an open prison set up, yes you can go out and intergrate with the public , but you must return to your room by say 9, oclock....

you can get a job, earn money , even go on hoiday - but it must be approved - once you have serve your complete sentence ,x amount of hard time and x amount of parole time then your slate is wiped clean (depending on the crime of course).

May be I will get the vote back ...

Not so sure about the open prison part and letting the felons go away on holiday, that would mean crossing borders, and would make it easier to abscond and harder to extradite, but everything else sounds good.

Just review the last part and you get my vote again :)

Of course until the next scandal :p

Or some one bribes me ;)
 

GaryPanic

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the idea behind this is for some sort of intergration , and if they run off , fine all well and good - we didn't want these people anyway.

they lose their citizenship ...
 

Alc

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I'm curious why the gun makers do not have to account for their weapons the way drug makers have to account for their narcotics. The paper work (in Canada anyways) for minor drugs like coedine boggles the mind.
If you made a company that makes guns subject to the same restrictions it would be a start. Somewhere down the chain someone sold the gun illegally to the criminal. That person should be held accountable as well.
These restrictions would be minor compared to the restrictions on ammunition.
I vaguely remember someone suggesting this on another forum. I think the generally held view was that almost all the guns being used by US gangs were from outside the country, so couldn't be tracked the same. Whether this is true or not, I have no idea (I'm sure some aren't US built, but I find it hard to believe that none of them are).
 

qailoh

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I vaguely remember someone suggesting this on another forum. I think the generally held view was that almost all the guns being used by US gangs were from outside the country, so couldn't be tracked the same.

Whoever said that was full of it. I'm sure the vast majority of guns used in crimes here in the US were manufactured [edit] or at least originally legally sold [/edit] here. I'd think the real problem is a data tracking issue, the manufacturers are required to keep and submit records but what of the retailers? I bought mine legally over 10 years ago but the retailer has since gone out of business, what happens to their records? Even if a national firearm registry tracking system is anything other than a fiction of all the crime shows, it's still a GIGO issue. Has anyone here never been tasked with tracking something for which real data was unavailable, never collected in the first place, or no longer existed? As database professionals I'm sure we're all familiar with how bureaucracies lose things...
 
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The_Doc_Man

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First, Colin, thanks for mentioning that great quote about Bush and how he could have spent that money to fix New Orleans. Also, your repeated reference to the disaster tours is welcome.

I don't disagree with the intent of the Bush quote. I'm not 100% in favor of the Iraqi conflict, and if he had asked me, I would have said, "Don't go." But George didn't ask me.

I want to offer you a different thought about the disaster tours. Yes, indeed, some folks are being trotted out for a "poor little me" dog and pony show. But most of the houses on the tour are abandoned. See, the area in question isn't coming back well because of infrastructure issues plus insurance plus they are elsewhere and too poor to come back to N'Awlins.

We WANT the world to remember that we were devastated. We WANT the world to remember that relief on that scale is hard to manage. People like Anderson Cooper (CNN), Oprah Winfrey, and Brad Pitt (yes, the actor - he's very civic-minded) are doing their best to push New Orleans into the eyes of an uncaring public who don't understand the magnitude of the disaster.

For instance, in St. Bernard Parish (adjacent to Orleans Parish on the east), only 3 homes were NOT flooded. It was a major suburb of New Orleans. Think about that for a moment. Only 3 homes were NOT flooded. Water got over 15 feet deep in some areas after the levees failed.

The most recent estimates on homes flooded by Katrina and Rita (3 weeks apart) comes to something like 106 THOUSAND homes. The government knows that money is needed to rebuild. The insurance companies have shown their true (craven) colors. The emergency management folks have shown their incompetence.

"Dr. Oz" on the Oprah show made a comment that is chilling - and truly important to hear and understand. Right now N'Awlins is going through a major crisis of health care. Doctors who lost their homes moved away to start new practices. Those who remain are overwhelmed. The city's Charity Hospital use to treat indigents. But Charity was flooded badly enough that it was overcome by mold and mildew. It is unusable. And the city therefore has no health care for the indigent. Dr. Oz said something like, "Watch the health care crisis in New Orleans. This is what will happen in your area after a major disaster if you don't take steps to assure that critical health care resources are available after that disaster." I misquote but that is the gist of it.

I could do nearly a dissertation on the issues of insurance companies and their fiduciary irresponsibility. But others have already started the lawsuit that will push this topic into the court system. While many reasons are contributors to the Crescent City's problems, I have to say that foot-dragging and outright refusal to pay up by the insurance companies are a bigger contributor than many other possible issues.

Colin, one of my cousins visited two months ago and took one of those tours. Yes, there is commercial exploitation on the part of the tour bus companies. But you know what? When people come by and see that in two years, we still have a ghost town in large parts of easter N'Awlins, it is a shocking, almost nightmarish wake-up call. A wake-up that a country that once prided itself as one of the richest countries in the world cannot take care of a medium sized city like New Orleans.
 

The_Doc_Man

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This thread also touched on gun violence. As usual, some parties like to bash the USA - except that this time the violence that started the thread was in the UK. Despite what some TV shows might portray, most of us here in the USA would grieve for a fallen child, gunshot victim or not. I do not think it is even possible to justify such an act.

The thread took an interesting turn for a while. One comment struck me, though. There was a bemoaning of degradation of manners in the UK. We have the same problem in some of our streets. But the interesting thing is something I recall from some incidental reading. In the USA "Wild West" it was common for people to have guns. (No, not everyone wore a gun. Not saying that. It was just not uncommon to see one.) But EVERYONE was very polite. Heck, there is a classic line from "The Virginian." (Book, not the TV series). Someone calls Trampas a son of a bitch, to which the response is "Smile when you say that, pardner." When impoliteness gets you a bullet, you rethink your insults.

Right now, N'Awlins is struggling through a tough time with murder running rampant. We have a drug war going on, and so many cops left the city after Katrina that we STILL have to use the US National Guard to patrol some areas. Every now and then we see a story about a solider having to use his weapon on someone to stop him from hurting someone else. So many cops relocated and found themselves in a good situation elsewhere. And the few who came back are overworked. The patrol routes are understaffed. The jails have reached federal crowding limits. The judges can't keep up with the dockets. And the N'Awlins District Attorney is having outright insurrection in his office because the DA's office just as short-handed and just as overworked. Witnesses won't testify because they know the cops cannot protect them. So murderers roam the streets running wild in the afflicted areas. Until someone exacts retribution.

This retribution actually happened two months ago in N'Awlines. Two young men accused of participating in several murders were themselves gunned down about six hours apart. They had been suspected of perpetrating at least four separate murders, but no witnesses had the courage to speak out. On the other hand, it is probably the case that the family of one of the victims "took care of business." I hate to see it because it means that the N'Awlins legal system has broken down. But again, as in my prior post, the world needs to watch. New Orleans is the microcosm for life after a major natural disaster. Our ills will be yours if you ever become a victim of that kind of disaster.

I noticed that someone wanted to stop violence by grabbing some folks by a very tender area and squeezing until they surrendered their guns. Of course, that is using violence to stop violence. I'm not saying your suggestion was wrong, but do you really want to use violence like that?

In a world seen as increasingly violent, you should expect to see MORE people in MORE countries start demanding the right to have guns at home. There is no such thing as appealing to the better nature of a thug. That is looking for something that doesn't exist - or at least rarely exists.
 

GaryPanic

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Doc..
2 well presented post's

espiceally as you are closer to the problem than most

you posts lead to us believeing that society (not just stateside) is uncaring
and you might have hit the nail on the head..

The problem i have (personal view) is that the US sets it self up to be the greatest country in the world - bless by god etc..
now i am not saying the UK s better/worse , but a society that doesn't care people who for all intent and purpose are almost lawless and a goverment unable to allocate resourse to resolve the issue - health /policing ...flys in the face of a great country .. yes there are individuals who care and show what compassion means but their voices are small compared to the perieced indifference of central goverment .

Now i have enjoyed my trips tot he states and i have got on with th e vast majority of "Yanks" (only met 1 idiot) so in 6-7 trips thats not bad

I deviate from the core of the thread..
a death of any child is a tragic occurence, the solution thats a bigger problem than any of us can comprehend , we have idea's that might help, but in the end , guns are in society and until society decides that this is unacceptable - theres not a lot we can do .. here in the UK guns are seemingly becomeing more avaiable ,

it might be time to rethink about the death penalty(person view) not as a deterrant , but to cull the herd - if your are going to kill people , then this is unacceptable and you are removed from society- permantly ..
 
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Rich

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a death of any child is a tragic occurence, the solution thats a bigger problem than any of us can comprehend , we have idea's that might help, but in the end , guns are in society and until society decides that this is unacceptable - ..

Society here did decide that handguns were not acceptable in our society to try and protect our children, unlike the US who would rather protect a scrap of old paper than their children. Ooops silly me that will be branded as US bashing:rolleyes:


it might be time to rethink about the death penalty

It doesn't work in the US, what makes you think it'll work here?
 

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