Are you religious/spiritual?

AnthonyGerrard

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Maybe those who are religious/spiritual/atheist can help expand on why they are atheist/spiritual/religious and why its the right path for them.

In terms of happiness, the meaning of life, getting on, respecting others etc.
 
Philosophical Discussions rarely bring about any true merit since not everyone has an open mind and heart.
Fruition is possible, however unlikely. Kind of a spin-off of "Are You an Atheist"
Answer: Yes I am a spiritual/religious person. Why? Opens up another can of worms!
 
Maybe those who are religious/spiritual/atheist can help expand on why they are atheist/spiritual/religious and why its the right path for them.

You appear to presume that a person cannot be both atheist and spiritual.

Religion is Man's way of protecting himself from spiritual experience.
 
You appear to presume that a person cannot be both atheist and spiritual.

Religion is Man's way of protecting himself from spiritual experience.

Hi Galaxiom: there are a lot of differences of religion vs spirituality and a lot of similarities as well. Religion usually brings to mind, Judaism, Christianity and Islamism but usually excludes Taoism and Buddhism.

Spirituality can be anywhere from believing in the Spirit of God to believing that the man is God?

Yes Atheism can go along with Spirituality very well in these cases. Sad, but it is true.
 
Oh Jesus, not another thread on bloody religion.

When is somebody going to start a thread that is a) interesting, b) not containing references to religion and guns (although both are the same to yanks)

More people may post if the threads are interesting.

No chance? Oh well, back to hibernation then.

Col
 
Oh Jesus, not another thread on bloody religion.

When is somebody going to start a thread that is a) interesting, b) not containing references to religion and guns (although both are the same to yanks)

More people may post if the threads are interesting.

No chance? Oh well, back to hibernation then.

Col

Hey Colin,,,,,,got any ideas,,, Have run out myself.
 
Here's a question I've never had a satisfactory answer to.

Let's assume there is a god in the way that Blade believes it. Ok, now the scenario.

Woman spends whole life living normally, wouldn't hurt a fly, would no more kill an animal than fly to the moon. She does voluntary work in a hospice tending the sick and generally makes many lives more pleasant. All round nice pleasant person who would help anyone.

Man brought up in drunken household, learns how to fight, use a knife. Turns to crime, robs steals from anyone until eventually knifes someone to death. Shows no remorse, gets out of jail, wounds people for whatever reason. All round nasty piece of work. Gets to 60 odd after a life of crime, drugs and the like. Now accepts Jesus in his battered soul.

They both die. Who goes to heaven? The woman? The man? Or both.

Col
 
Here's a question I've never had a satisfactory answer to.

Let's assume there is a god in the way that Blade believes it. Ok, now the scenario.

Woman spends whole life living normally, wouldn't hurt a fly, would no more kill an animal than fly to the moon. She does voluntary work in a hospice tending the sick and generally makes many lives more pleasant. All round nice pleasant person who would help anyone.

Man brought up in drunken household, learns how to fight, use a knife. Turns to crime, robs steals from anyone until eventually knifes someone to death. Shows no remorse, gets out of jail, wounds people for whatever reason. All round nasty piece of work. Gets to 60 odd after a life of crime, drugs and the like. Now accepts Jesus in his battered soul.

They both die. Who goes to heaven? The woman? The man? Or both.

Col
I will assume that the goodness in her heart, the woman will reach heaven if she truly ask Jesus for forgiveness.

On the other hand, the heart in the man is more evil than not. Rarely do these people ever ask forgiveness for their sins. If they do like the article I wrote on Jeffery Dahmer,,it will depend if they have truly turned to Jesus or not. If they have, then they too will be forgiven, if not????????NO......

Jesus will 'know' what is in his heart and mind. He will not be able to tell any kind of a lie to get into heaven.
 
:confused:

What is the woman asking forgiveness of?

The scenario Col painted of the guy was of someone who had no chance in life, was that his fault?

There is a song "in the ghetto" ,Elvis does a great version, what about people like that.

Brian
 
According to fundamentalist doctrine such as Blade espouses, the woman is damned and will be cast into the Lake of Fire come Judgement Day, as she never took up fundamentalist Christianity.

Conversely, as long as the criminal sincerely repented (as in, truly understood what he did was wrong and wanted to make amends), because he took up Christianity, he'll go to Heaven.

So the good woman either is damned while the man who did nothing but spread misery is welcomed to Heaven.
 
Not all people will go to Heaven. The earth has a purpose.
Hell is not a bad place. it is the common grave of mankind.
Acts: 2:31 (Jesus went to Hell)
 
According to fundamentalist doctrine such as Blade espouses, the woman is damned and will be cast into the Lake of Fire come Judgement Day, as she never took up fundamentalist Christianity.

Conversely, as long as the criminal sincerely repented (as in, truly understood what he did was wrong and wanted to make amends), because he took up Christianity, he'll go to Heaven.

So the good woman either is damned while the man who did nothing but spread misery is welcomed to Heaven.

That's exactly what I thought. The woman is completely outcast and chastised to burn in hell, despite a lifetime of good work, whilst the man reaps the benefit of his crimes then settles nicely in heaven.

Where is this super tolerant all loving God? He needs a good smack in the mouth. Call that fair?

Col
 
That's exactly what I thought. The woman is completely outcast and chastised to burn in hell, despite a lifetime of good work, whilst the man reaps the benefit of his crimes then settles nicely in heaven.

Where is this super tolerant all loving God? He needs a good smack in the mouth. Call that fair?

Col

Yes Atheists and all religions can go to heaven - the important thing is to do good, and to genuinely renounce the bad.


http://www.catholic.org/news/hf/faith/story.php?id=51077

I think most of the worlds "great" religions believe similarly.


The smaller churches manic street preacher may tell you differently.
 
It's not what people tell you, but what the facts support.
HADES
(Haʹdes).
This is the common transliteration into English of the corresponding Greek word haiʹdes. It perhaps means “the unseen place.” In all, the word “Hades” occurs ten times in the earliest manuscripts of the Christian Greek Scriptures.—Mt 11:23; 16:18; Lu 10:15; 16:23; Ac 2:27, 31; Re 1:18; 6:8; 20:13,*14.

The King James Version translates haiʹdes as “hell” in these texts, but the Revised Standard Version renders it “Hades,” with the exception of Matthew 16:18, where “powers of death” is used, though the footnote reads “gates of Hades.” “Hades” rather than “hell” is used in many modern translations.
The Greek Septuagint translation of the Hebrew Scriptures (from Genesis to Malachi) uses the word “Hades” 73 times, employing it 60 times to translate the Hebrew word sheʼohlʹ, commonly rendered “Sheol.” Luke, the divinely inspired writer of Acts, definitely showed Hades to be the Greek equivalent of Sheol when he translated Peter’s quotation from Psalm 16:10. (Ac 2:27) Inversely, nine modern Hebrew translations of the Christian Greek Scriptures use the word “Sheol” to translate Hades at Revelation 20:13, 14; and the Syriac translation uses the related word Shiul.

In all but two cases in which the word Hades is used in the Christian Greek Scriptures it is related to death, either in the verse itself or in the immediate context; the two other instances are discussed in the following paragraph. Hades does not refer to a single grave (Gr., taʹphos), or to a single tomb (Gr., mneʹma), or to a single memorial tomb (Gr., mne·meiʹon), but to the common grave of mankind, where the dead and buried ones are unseen. It thus signifies the same as the corresponding word “Sheol,” and an examination of its use in all its ten occurrences bears out this fact.—See GRAVE; SHEOL.

In its first occurrence, at Matthew 11:23, Jesus Christ, in chiding Capernaum for its disbelief, uses Hades to represent the depth of debasement to which Capernaum would come down, in contrast with the height of heaven to which she had been exalted by reason of Jesus’ ministry there. A corresponding text is found at Luke 10:15. Note the similar way in which Sheol is used at Job 11:7,*8.
Jesus and Congregation Delivered. Concerning the Christian congregation, Jesus said, at Matthew 16:18, that “the gates of Hades [“powers of death,” RS] will not overpower it.” Similarly, King Hezekiah, when on the verge of death, said: “In the midst of my days I will go into the gates of Sheol.” (Isa 38:10) It, therefore, becomes apparent that Jesus’ promise of victory over Hades means that its “gates” will open to release the dead by means of a resurrection, even as was the case with Christ Jesus himself.
Since Hades refers to the common grave of mankind, a place rather than a condition, Jesus entered within “the gates of Hades” when buried by Joseph of Arimathea. On Pentecost of 33*C.E., Peter said of Christ: “Neither was he forsaken in Hades nor did his flesh see corruption. This Jesus God resurrected, of which fact we are all witnesses.” (Ac 2:25-27, 29-32; Ps 16:10) Whereas “the gates of Hades” (Mt 16:18) were still holding David within their domain in Peter’s day (Ac 2:29), they had swung open for Christ Jesus when his Father resurrected him out of Hades. Thereafter, through the power of the resurrection given him (Joh 5:21-30), Jesus is the Holder of “the keys of death and of Hades.”—Re 1:17,*18.

Manifestly, the Bible Hades is not the imagined place that the ancient non-Christian Greeks described in their mythologies as a “dark, sunless region within the earth,” for there was no resurrection from such mythological underworld.
Illustrative Use. At Revelation 6:8 Hades is figuratively pictured as closely following after the rider of the pale horse, personalized Death, to receive the victims of the death-dealing agencies of war, famine, plagues, and wild beasts.
The sea (which at times serves as a watery grave for some) is mentioned in addition to Hades (the common earthen grave), for the purpose of stressing the inclusiveness of all such dead ones when Revelation 20:13, 14 says that the sea, death, and Hades are to give up or be emptied of the dead in them. Thereafter, death and Hades (but not the sea) are cast into “the lake of fire,” “the second death.” They thereby figuratively ‘die out’ of existence, and this signifies the end of Hades (Sheol), the common grave of mankind, as well as of death inherited through Adam.

The remaining text in which Hades is used is found at Luke 16:22-26 in the account of “the rich man” and “Lazarus.” The language throughout the account is plainly parabolic and cannot be construed literally in view of all the preceding texts. Note, however, that “the rich man” of the parable is spoken of as being “buried” in Hades, giving further evidence that Hades means the common grave of mankind.—See GEHENNA; TARTARUS.

Hell
Definition: The word “hell” is found in many Bible translations. In the same verses other translations read “the grave,” “the world of the dead,” and so forth. Other Bibles simply transliterate the original-language words that are sometimes rendered “hell”; that is, they express them with the letters of our alphabet but leave the words untranslated. What are those words? The Hebrew she’ohlʹ and its Greek equivalent haiʹdes, which refer, not to an individual burial place, but to the common grave of dead mankind; also the Greek geʹen·na, which is used as a symbol of eternal destruction. However, both in Christendom and in many non-Christian religions it is taught that hell is a place inhabited by demons and where the wicked, after death, are punished (and some believe that this is with torment).

Does the Bible indicate whether the dead experience pain?
Eccl. 9:5,*10: “The living are conscious that they will die; but as for the dead, they are conscious of nothing at all .*.*. All that your hand finds to do, do with your very power, for there is no work nor devising nor knowledge nor wisdom in Sheol,* the place to which you are going.” (If they are conscious of nothing, they obviously feel no pain.) (*“Sheol,” AS, RS, NE, JB; “the grave,” KJ, Kx; “hell,” Dy; “the world of the dead,” TEV.)
Ps. 146:4: “His spirit goes out, he goes back to his ground; in that day his thoughts* do perish.” (*“Thoughts,” KJ, 145:4 in Dy; “schemes,” JB; “plans,” RS, TEV.)
Does the Bible indicate that the soul survives the death of the body?
Ezek. 18:4: “The soul* that is sinning—it itself will die.” (*“Soul,” KJ, Dy, RS, NE, Kx; “the man,” JB; “the person,” TEV.)
“The concept of ‘soul,’ meaning a purely spiritual, immaterial reality, separate from the ‘body,’*.*.*. does not exist in*the Bible.”—La Parole de Dieu (Paris, 1960), Georges Auzou, professor of Sacred Scripture, Rouen Seminary, France, p. 128.

“Although the Hebrew word nefesh [in the Hebrew Scriptures] is frequently translated as ‘soul,’ it would be inaccurate to read into it a Greek meaning. Nefesh .*.*. is never conceived of as operating separately from the body. In the New Testament the Greek word psyche is often translated as ‘soul’ but again should not be readily understood to have the meaning the word had for the Greek philosophers. It usually means ‘life,’ or ‘vitality,’ or, at times, ‘the self.’”—The Encyclopedia Americana (1977), Vol. 25, p. 236.
What sort of people go to the Bible hell?
Does the Bible say that the wicked go to hell?
Ps. 9:17, KJ: “The wicked shall be turned into hell,* and all the nations that forget God.” (*“Hell,” 9:18 in Dy; “death,” TEV; “the place of death,” Kx; “Sheol,” AS, RS, NE, JB, NW.)

Does the Bible also say that upright people go to hell?
Job 14:13, Dy: “[Job prayed:] Who will grant me this, that thou mayst protect me in hell,* and hide me till thy wrath pass, and appoint me a time when thou wilt remember me?” (God himself said that Job was “a man blameless and upright, fearing God and turning aside from bad.”—Job 1:8.) (*“The grave,” KJ; “the world of the dead,” TEV; “Sheol,” AS, RS, NE, JB, NW.)
Acts 2:25-27, KJ: “David speaketh concerning him [Jesus Christ], .*.*. Because thou wilt not leave my soul in hell,* neither wilt thou suffer thine Holy One to see corruption.” (The fact that God did not “leave” Jesus in hell implies that Jesus was in hell, or Hades, at least for a time, does it not?) (*“Hell,” Dy; “death,” NE; “the place of death,” Kx; “the world of the dead,” TEV; “Hades,” AS, RS, JB, NW.)

Does anyone ever get out of the Bible hell?
Rev. 20:13,*14, KJ: “The sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell* delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works. And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire.” (So the dead will be delivered from hell. Notice also that hell is not the same as the lake of fire but will be cast into the lake of fire.) (*“Hell,” Dy, Kx; “the world of the dead,” TEV; “Hades,” NE, AS, RS, JB, NW.)

Why is there confusion as to what the Bible says about hell?
“Much confusion and misunderstanding has been caused through the early translators of the Bible persistently rendering the Hebrew Sheol and the Greek Hades and Gehenna by the word hell. The simple transliteration of these words by the translators of the revised editions of the Bible has not sufficed to appreciably clear up this confusion and misconception.”—The Encyclopedia Americana (1942), Vol. XIV, p. 81.
Translators have allowed their personal beliefs to color their work instead of being consistent in their rendering of the original-language words. For example: (1) The King James Version rendered she’ohlʹ as “hell,” “the grave,” and “the pit”; haiʹdes is therein rendered both “hell” and “grave”; geʹen·na is also translated “hell.” (2)*Today’s English Version transliterates haiʹdes as “Hades” and also renders it as “hell” and “the world of the dead.” But besides rendering “hell” from haiʹdes it uses that same translation for geʹen·na. (3)*The Jerusalem Bible transliterates haiʹdes six times, but in other passages it translates it as “hell” and as “the underworld.”

It also translates geʹen·na as “hell,” as it does haiʹdes in two instances. Thus the exact meanings of the original-language words have been obscured.
Is there eternal punishment for the wicked?
Matt. 25:46, KJ: “These shall go away into everlasting punishment [“lopping off,” Int; Greek, koʹla·sin]: but the righteous into life eternal.” (The Emphatic Diaglott reads “cutting-off” instead of “punishment.” A footnote states: “Kolasin .*.*. is derived from kolazoo, which signifies, 1. To cut off; as lopping off branches of trees, to prune. 2. To restrain, to repress. .*.*. 3. To chastise, to punish. To cut off an individual from life, or society, or even to restrain, is esteemed as punishment;—hence has arisen this third metaphorical use of the word. The primary signification has been adopted, because it agrees better with the second member of the sentence, thus preserving the force and beauty of the antithesis.
The righteous go to life, the wicked to the cutting off from life, or death. See 2*Thess. 1.9.”)

2*Thess. 1:9, RS: “They shall suffer the punishment of eternal destruction* and exclusion from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of his might.” (*“Eternal ruin,” NAB, NE; “lost eternally,” JB; “condemn them to eternal punishment,” Kx; “eternal punishment in destruction,” Dy.)
Jude 7, KJ: “Even as Sodom and Gomorrha, and the cities about them in like manner, giving themselves over to fornication, and going after strange flesh, are set forth for an example, suffering the vengeance of eternal fire.” (The fire that destroyed Sodom and Gomorrah ceased burning thousands of years ago. But the effect of that fire has been lasting; the cities have not been rebuilt.

God’s judgment, however, was against not merely those cities but also their wicked inhabitants. What happened to them is a warning example. At Luke 17:29, Jesus says that they were “destroyed”; Jude 7 shows that the destruction was eternal.)
What is the meaning of the ‘eternal torment’ referred to in Revelation?
Rev. 14:9-11; 20:10, KJ: “If any man worship the beast and his image, and receive his mark in his forehead, or in his hand, the same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb: and the smoke of their torment [Greek, basa·ni·smouʹ] ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name.” “And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.”
What is the ‘torment’ to which these texts refer?

It is noteworthy that at Revelation 11:10 (KJ) reference is made to ‘prophets that torment those dwelling on the earth.’ Such torment results from humiliating exposure by the messages that these prophets proclaim. At Revelation 14:9-11 (KJ) worshipers of the symbolic “beast and his image” are said to be “tormented with fire and brimstone.” This cannot refer to conscious torment after death because “the dead know not any thing.” (Eccl. 9:5, KJ) Then, what causes them to experience such torment while they are still alive? It is the proclamation by God’s servants that worshipers of the “beast and his image” will experience second death, which is represented by “the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone.” The smoke, associated with their fiery destruction, ascends forever because the destruction will be eternal and will never be forgotten. When Revelation 20:10 says that the Devil is to experience ‘torment forever and ever’ in “the lake of fire and brimstone,” what does that mean? Revelation 21:8 (KJ) says clearly that “the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone” means “the second death.” So the Devil’s being “tormented” there forever means that there will be no relief for him; he will be held under restraint forever, actually in eternal death. This use of the word “torment” (from the Greek baʹsa·nos) reminds one of its use at Matthew 18:34, where the same basic Greek word is applied to a ‘jailer.’—RS, AT, ED, NW.

What is the ‘fiery Gehenna’ to which Jesus referred?
Reference to Gehenna appears 12 times in the Christian Greek Scriptures. Five times it is directly associated with fire. Translators have rendered the Greek expression geʹen·nan tou py·rosʹ as “hell fire” (KJ, Dy), “fires of hell” (NE), “fiery pit” (AT), and “fires of Gehenna” (NAB).
Historical background: The Valley of Hinnom (Gehenna) was outside the walls of Jerusalem. For a time it was the site of idolatrous worship, including child sacrifice. In the first century Gehenna was being used as the incinerator for the filth of Jerusalem. Bodies of dead animals were thrown into the valley to be consumed in the fires, to which sulfur, or brimstone, was added to assist the burning. Also bodies of executed criminals, who were considered undeserving of burial in a memorial tomb, were thrown into Gehenna. Thus, at Matthew 5:29,*30, Jesus spoke of the casting of one’s “whole body” into Gehenna.

If the body fell into the constantly burning fire it was consumed, but if it landed on a ledge of the deep ravine its putrefying flesh became infested with the ever-present worms, or maggots. (Mark 9:47,*48) Living humans were not pitched into Gehenna; so it was not a place of conscious torment.
At Matthew 10:28, Jesus warned his hearers to “be in fear of him that can destroy both soul and body in Gehenna.” What does it mean? Notice that there is no mention here of torment in the fires of Gehenna; rather, he says to ‘fear him that can destroy in Gehenna.’ By referring to the “soul” separately, Jesus here emphasizes that God can destroy all of a person’s life prospects; thus there is no hope of resurrection for him. So, the references to the ‘fiery Gehenna’ have the same meaning as ‘the lake of fire’ of Revelation 21:8, namely, destruction, “second death.”
What does the Bible say the penalty for sin is?
Rom. 6:23: “The wages sin pays is death.”
After one’s death, is he still subject to further punishment for his sins?
Rom. 6:7: “He who has died has been acquitted from his sin.”
Is eternal torment of the wicked compatible with God’s personality?
Jer. 7:31: “They [apostate Judeans] have built the high places of Topheth, which is in the valley of the son of Hinnom, in order to burn their sons and their daughters in the fire, a thing that I had not commanded and that had not come up into my heart.” (If it never came into God’s heart, surely he does not have and use such a thing on a larger scale.)

Illustration:
What would you think of a parent who held his child’s hand over a fire to punish the child for wrongdoing? “God is love.” (1*John 4:8) Would he do what no right-minded human parent would do? Certainly not!
By what Jesus said about the rich man and Lazarus, did Jesus teach torment of the wicked after death?
Is the account, at Luke 16:19-31, literal or merely an illustration of something else? The Jerusalem Bible, in a footnote, acknowledges that it is a “parable in story form without reference to any historical personage.” If taken literally, it would mean that those enjoying divine favor could all fit at the bosom of one man, Abraham; that the water on one’s fingertip would not be evaporated by the fire of Hades; that a mere drop of water would bring relief to one suffering there. Does that sound reasonable to you? If it were literal, it would conflict with other parts of the Bible. If the Bible were thus contradictory, would a lover of truth use it as a basis for his faith? But the Bible does not contradict itself.


What does the parable mean? The “rich man” represented the Pharisees. (See verse 14.) The beggar Lazarus represented the common Jewish people who were despised by the Pharisees but who repented and became followers of Jesus. (See Luke 18:11; John 7:49; Matthew 21:31,*32.) Their deaths were also symbolic, representing a change in circumstances. Thus, the formerly despised ones came into a position of divine favor, and the formerly seemingly favored ones were rejected by God, while being tormented by the judgment messages delivered by the ones whom they had despised.—Acts 5:33; 7:54.
What is the origin of the teaching of hellfire?
In ancient Babylonian and Assyrian beliefs the “nether world .*.*. is pictured as a place full of horrors, and*is*presided*over by gods and demons of great strength and*fierceness.”*(The Religion of Babylonia and Assyria, Boston, 1898, Morris Jastrow, Jr., p. 581) Early evidence of the fiery*aspect*of*Christendom’s hell is found in*the*religion of*ancient Egypt. (The Book of the Dead, New Hyde Park,*N.Y., 1960, with introduction by E. A.*Wallis Budge, pp. 144, 149,*151,*153,*161) Buddhism, which dates back to the 6th century*B.C.E., in time came to feature both hot and cold hells. (The Encyclopedia Americana, 1977, Vol.*14, p.*68) Depictions of hell portrayed in Catholic churches in*Italy have been traced to Etruscan roots.—La civiltà etrusca*(Milan, 1979), Werner Keller, p. 389.


But the real roots of this God-dishonoring doctrine go much deeper. The fiendish concepts associated with a hell of torment slander God and originate with the chief slanderer of God (the Devil, which name means “Slanderer”), the one whom Jesus Christ called “the father of the lie.”—John 8:44.

Up to you to believe or not. Just my FINAL 2 Cents worth.
Apologize for the lengthy post and not posting correctly.
 
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Wall of text CRITS you for 3923974879123791837982193479812384 damage!

Burrina, slow down for a second. Two things here:

1) Posting a 3264-word wall of text, especially with no breaks in it, pretty much guarantees no one will read your post.

2) Quoting the Bible at non-Christians does nothing but make them roll their eyes and dismiss you as yet another fanatic with nothing of value to contribute. Contrary to what Jack Chick would tell you, simply quoting the Bible at someone isn't going to make them change their mind. It's no different that just saying "You're wrong" over and over again, and nothing else.
 
It's reasoning. There is plenty of non-biblical evidence to support the claim. I adjusted the post.

Have a Good Day! I just got tired of seeing this post show up all the time.
 
It's circular logic - using the Bible to prove the Bible.

It's no more valid logic than you saying "I'm right because I say I am."

There is no evidence whatsoever that Hell is an actual place, any more than there is proof that Adam lived 700 years (or even existed, for that matter), that Mary was somehow a virgin (despite Yeshua having older brothers), or that the earth suddenly stopped rotating for several hours, then started right back up again.

If you want to convince anyone here that you have a single worthwhile thing to say, you'll need proof. Not "My holy book says so", but actual, empirical proof. Throwing Bible verses at us as your "proof" has approximately the same reaction as if we responded back with "blargle blagnut wingboddle dumpkiss". Quoting the Bible doesn't work like a Jedi mind trick.
 
What I said was worthwhile even if you choose not to accept it. If you or others want to believe something without examining all of the facts then it's up to you.

The consequences of such a thing when it comes to all matters in life generally are not good. Those were God's words, not mine. You don't reject me but him. Hope you don't miss the boat!
 

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