Coronavirus - are we all doomed? (4 Viewers)

[deletedT]

We never know how and when we loose the control over ourselves. The other day I saw a clip in Instagram. A man bumped into another one, an argument started and suddenly one of them drew his weapon and fired. One was sent to a hospital the other to jail. And I'm sure one of them regrets why he bumped into someone, the other wished he had never bought the firearm.
The one who fired had no criminal records. I'm not familiar with your law, but I don't think it will be processed as a self defense.

The problem is in cases like this, anger is the one who decides not our conscious. You will never know.

Most of you believe you need your firearm for your protection and security. But I can't understand why no one talks about how to secure the society.
If you have ever lived in a country that guns are not allowed, you may understand how having a gun in your home, or car or on yourself is strange for us.

 

[The_Doc_Man]

But I can't understand why no one talks about how to secure the society.

This is a valid cross-cultural question, Tera, and deserves a decent answer. Let's hope that I can give one that somehow evades my own cultural biases.

The USA is a relatively young country, though by far not the youngest. As a culture ages, some of its formative pressures become lost to history. Only the more important factors remain part of the culture. This is just human nature. We remember what is important and we tend to forget what is not so important. I'm sure that older cultures do not always remember why they chose one direction over another in every part of their history. Here is a rhetorical question for you... when did your people stop carrying swords or big knives? Do you know when - and why?

For us, the initial colonists to the USA from Europe needed their guns to survive by hunting because hunter-gatherer societies need less infrastructure than agrarian societies. In the earliest days, we had little or no infrastructure. So guns (and axes) were necessary during our earliest days. The infrastructure for agrarian societies adds the requirement to be able to protect the farm from predators. It would only take a few wolves to decimate your sheep or cattle. It would only take a few bison or deer or wild hogs to decimate your corn crop. We don't even need to bring in protection from marauding native Americans. Even without the human predators, guns were still necessary. As communities grew to villages, towns, and eventually cities, many people still needed their guns because they were guards against marauders of all kinds, this time including humans.

However, as the colonies progressed, the USA came to a feeling of being oppressed, which led to the Revolutionary War. There, those who had guns became part of the militia. Anyone who had a gun and knew how to use it was forced to take sides. I make no claims of exclusivity, because I'm sure the colonists were not saints, but a number of British atrocities brought about by overzealous officers - or those trying to set an example - led to strong emotions among those citizen-soldiers. It is a dramatization and not to be considered widespread, but the behavior depicted for Colonel Tavington in the movie The Patriot was not unknown.

Here is where the heritage became central to your question. After the war but before the U.S. Constitution was finalized, the colonies debated with much anger and much fervor. There was a vow that was the equivalent of "Never again will we be unarmed in the face of aggression." (Paraphrasing, you understand, 'cause I wasn't there.) In order to get some of the colonies to agree to join the nation, we had to draft the first ten amendments to the constitution, what we now call the "Bill of Rights." These amendments provided added rules and enumerated rights that eventually persuaded the stragglers to join the USA.

And now, the point of historical perspective: That happened less than 250 years ago. These events occured from 1776 to 1789, which means from 2020 is only 244 years back. That is not long enough for the stories to have faded from our culture. When I was in grade school, the USA had not yet celebrated its Bicentennial. We still heard stories about the rugged explorers, hunters, and trappers of our pioneering days. Our most recent states to join the union in the confines of the continental USA were New Mexico and Arizona in 1912, Oklahoma was 1907. Utah was 1896. When we talk of the "Wild West" we are talking about a time when current states were still territories with less law enforcement and military protection than we have now. Guns were still needed to tame those lands due to four-legged predators and two-legged varmints (who also carried guns). We are now talking about times within the familial memories of people who passed down stories from their living grandparents!

During all that time, the gun was the tool of taming a violent environment. Gun ownership in the USA has indeed diminished, but there are those who have that ancestral heritage that showed that the gun was the tool of personal protection. With us, that is still an echo reverberating through our families. Perhaps we are moving towards a time when guns will not be required. But thanks to my genealogy research, I can tell you of my great-great-grandparents who fought in the Civil War (on either side) and can tell you where some of my Confederate ancestors are buried in mass grave sites set aside for Civil War prisoners of war. The Confederacy lost that one - and probably should have lost - but it reinforced the idea that we needed guns in case the current government became oppressive enough to cause a true revolt.

That was one of the tremendous fears of our Founding Fathers - that the government of the USA would become equally as tyrannical as the remote governance of King George III had been. I will leave it to you to consider whether the current situation in the USA is one where you could successfully persuade anyone that we need to turn in our guns and trust the government. Given that factor in our culture, do you think we would?

I don't know if you are familiar with the work of graphic novelist Alan Moore or the movie V for Vendetta, but there is a significant line that has a lot of believers. "People should not fear their government; a government should fear its people." In the USA, we believe that our government derives its power from our continued permission as evidenced by our voting. We try to use the voting booth as a peaceful way to to assure that they remember that fact. You can use that general idea to see why Donald Trump got elected. With Hillary, a lot of us (including me) felt that she was "more of the same" and we had come to distrust that "sameness." The election of Donald Trump was essentially a "revolution in a ballot box."

Tera, I hope this helps you to understand better why we do at least some of what we do and why we remain adamant about having guns.

 

[AccessBlaster]

I have not been able to fire them yet, partially because ammo is so scarce...

And there is the rub. I have been saying to friends and family for many years, where in the constitution does it say the right to own ammunition? It doesn't. NG you may find you have to "roll your own."

I attended an NRA class when I was a teen in the 70's. Bought a few air rifles after that practicing gun safety. In 1983 I bought my first wheel gun, then two others shortly after. That's when I started my reloading adventures.

Reloading is a great hobby and after the initial expenditures the saving can be good. Also depending on your state, many components can be FedEx or UPS direct.

Again congrats and safe shooting!

 

[Steve R.]

The USA is a relatively young country, though by far not the youngest. As a culture ages, some of its formative pressures become lost to history. Only the more important factors remain part of the culture. This is just human nature. We remember what is important and we tend to forget what is not so important. I'm sure that older cultures do not always remember why they chose one direction over another in every part of their history. Here is a rhetorical question for you... when did your people stop carrying swords or big knives? Do you know when - and why?

For us, the initial colonists to the USA from Europe needed their guns to survive by hunting because hunter-gatherer societies need less infrastructure than agrarian societies. In the earliest days, we had little or no infrastructure. So guns (and axes) were necessary during our earliest days. The infrastructure for agrarian societies adds the requirement to be able to protect the farm from predators. It would only take a few wolves to decimate your sheep or cattle. It would only take a few bison or deer or wild hogs to decimate your corn crop. We don't even need to bring in protection from marauding native Americans. Even without the human predators, guns were still necessary. As communities grew to villages, towns, and eventually cities, many people still needed their guns because they were guards against marauders of all kinds, this time including humans.

My response really has nothing to with "guns". What it does concern is cultural evolution; or, for the US the "closing for the frontier". Fredrick Jackson Turner, as a brief summary, advocated that the "west" served as a "safety valve" for the settled parts of this country. Those disaffected with society could leave. Now, they can't, society is stuck with dealing with them, in-place. Which, can lead to the question that the current unrest in the US could, in part, be attributed to those disaffected people not being able to escape society by moving to new virgin territory.

There is also a role for Theodore Roosevelt in this cultural evolution. But I have not yet developed a good theory on that. I view Theodore Roosevelt as representing a transition from an undefined "old" style to a "new" style. The "old" style being things like low population density, the "empty west", big game hunting, and not caring too much about the environment. The "new" style higher population densities, the "filling" of the "empty west", creating National Parks to protect the environment, and providing people with an opportunity to enjoy this countries natural resources.

 

[deletedT]

@The_Doc_Man
Million thanks for the detailed reply. I actually didn't know lots of what you explained about your history. It was a good read. I had to go through it three times to be sure I understand the situation.

In case of your question about our knives and swords, I don't go into details because I know it will be boring. In simple, about 100 years ago (I think) Samurais were a real threat for government. They were a wall between poor people and government defending them against new laws.. Our government to get ride of Samurais, simply banned knives and swords. And arrested Samurais.
The Last Samurai, starring Tom Cruise shows that era in our history. (won 4 Oscars).


Back to what you said, even with that background in your history, I still think some people or organizations (NRA?) are escalating the situation. I can't understand why M134 Electric Machine Gun or AR-15 can be purchased in a shop (even if a license is necessary). From what I see in documentaries (if they are true) you can buy weapons that are made to be used in a war zone, and it's much more than you explained above.

But, still I have to think about your response. What you explained above was too rich for my 512MB brain.

 

[The_Doc_Man]

@Steve R. - Your point about the lack of a new frontier makes perfect sense to me. It might sound like a digression but perhaps it is not. If you like classic science fiction novels, I recommend The Moon is a Harsh Mistress by Robert A. Heinlein. In it, the Moon has been colonized using domed cities and underground caverns that could be sealed well enough to be airtight. People could go to the Moon to escape certain issues. The Earth also used it as a penal colony for a while, shades of England and Australia. But even there, the crowded nature of life because a flash point.

@Tera, one could argue that your samurais and our Confederate states were both on the losing side of the "local vs. centralized" issues of government. The difference with us is that we had that moment in history when we had to promise to ourselves and our posterity that they would always have both the right AND THE MEANS to protect themselves even to the point of lethal force. Our "Self Defense" and "Stand Your Ground" and "Shoot the Burgler" laws that crop up in various states are offshoots of that central theme. Our 2nd Amendment is the centerpiece of the ability to defend ourselves and is the basis and embodiment of that promise. It also derives from the idea that at the time that promise was necessary, there WAS no major force available to protect us. We had to protect ourselves. As Steve R. pointed out, we were dealing with a land that had a defined border to the west of which was "frontier" and to the east of which was "civilization" (more or less.)

I happen to agree that buying an M134 Electric Machine Gun is a bit much, though Hollywood likes it and so did the Mythbusters. An AR-15, on the other hand, is something that the bad guys already have. Not that many will have an M134 because the son-of-a... gun is too expensive to shoot very often. Eats through expensive ammo like a kid with chocolate candy. With the influx of the Central American gang MS-13 and others like it, some areas ARE like a war zone. I don't like gun ownership THAT much, but I recognize that it may be the ONLY way to take back the streets, because when you are dealing with barbarians, they don't stop until you make it far too expensive from them to continue - and that price is their own blood.

 

[Jon]

With the defunding of the police, it looks like you have to be your own police now. This is particularly true in places like Minneapolis and Seattle, where both councils want to abolish the entire police force.

So, I figure you need to get armed since crime will and has rocketed.

 

[The_Doc_Man]

Jon, I wish it were not so - but you are terribly and sadly correct. "Defund the police" will last until an armed conflict between looters and vigilantes leads to massive deaths. At some point, the "Defund the Police" crowd will be forced to make the horrible realization - that THEY needed the police as much as everybody else did.

I know that Seattle faced lawsuits for their treatment of the Capitol Hill Organized Protest. I can hardly wait until the lawsuits start rolling in if the police are actually defunded and someone then says, "But my right of expectation of due process is harmed by that action." Anarchy, here we come.

 

[AccessBlaster]

Defund the police" will last until an armed conflict between looters and vigilantes leads to massive deaths.

if Biden we're to be elected all the riots would magically stop and everything would be right in the universe.

 

[Steve R.]

if Biden we're to be elected all the riots would magically stop and everything would be right in the universe.

You gave me the segue for a comment that I was contemplating. Yes the riots will stop. But the "police" will be reconstituted as "agents" (Committee of Public Safety) of the Democratic party to ensure compliance with COVID-19 restrictions, weed out hate speech, enforce social justice, uphold the green new deal, etc. Inklings of this possibility can already be seen through the decrees of some Democratic District Attorneys, Governors, and Mayors.

Since posting I've heard that the police officer (Rolfe) who killed Brooks in Atlanta and was subsequently fired (immediately) by the the Mayor of Atlanta (Bottoms) has filed a lawsuit for unlawful termination (failure to follow due process). This lawsuit has evidently not made it to some papers, but did make it to the NPR: "Former Atlanta Police Officer Who Shot Rayshard Brooks Sues City Over Firing". What is disheartening about this article is that it presents cherry picked facts to inflame the racial divide.
The article is in the section "Live Updates: Protests For Racial Justice". It identifies Rolf as being White and Brooks as being Black, but never mentions that the Mayor (Bottoms), or that the Fulton County District Attorney (Howard) are Black. So the purpose of mentioning that Rolf is White and Brooks was Black was to imply that Black's are victims of White abuse. The article also claims that Rolph's actions further escalated racial tensions. What the article does not disclose is that there is no evidence of racial animosity by Rolfe. The increase in supposed racial tensions can be blamed on the race baiters, which NPR is allowing, through its silence to happen.

 

[Isaac]

This is a valid cross-cultural question, Tera, and deserves a decent answer. Let's hope that I can give one that somehow evades my own cultural biases.

The USA is a relatively young country, though by far not the youngest. As a culture ages, some of its formative pressures become lost to history. Only the more important factors remain part of the culture. This is just human nature. We remember what is important and we tend to forget what is not so important. I'm sure that older cultures do not always remember why they chose one direction over another in every part of their history. Here is a rhetorical question for you... when did your people stop carrying swords or big knives? Do you know when - and why?

For us, the initial colonists to the USA from Europe needed their guns to survive by hunting because hunter-gatherer societies need less infrastructure than agrarian societies. In the earliest days, we had little or no infrastructure. So guns (and axes) were necessary during our earliest days. The infrastructure for agrarian societies adds the requirement to be able to protect the farm from predators. It would only take a few wolves to decimate your sheep or cattle. It would only take a few bison or deer or wild hogs to decimate your corn crop. We don't even need to bring in protection from marauding native Americans. Even without the human predators, guns were still necessary. As communities grew to villages, towns, and eventually cities, many people still needed their guns because they were guards against marauders of all kinds, this time including humans.

However, as the colonies progressed, the USA came to a feeling of being oppressed, which led to the Revolutionary War. There, those who had guns became part of the militia. Anyone who had a gun and knew how to use it was forced to take sides. I make no claims of exclusivity, because I'm sure the colonists were not saints, but a number of British atrocities brought about by overzealous officers - or those trying to set an example - led to strong emotions among those citizen-soldiers. It is a dramatization and not to be considered widespread, but the behavior depicted for Colonel Tavington in the movie The Patriot was not unknown.

Here is where the heritage became central to your question. After the war but before the U.S. Constitution was finalized, the colonies debated with much anger and much fervor. There was a vow that was the equivalent of "Never again will we be unarmed in the face of aggression." (Paraphrasing, you understand, 'cause I wasn't there.) In order to get some of the colonies to agree to join the nation, we had to draft the first ten amendments to the constitution, what we now call the "Bill of Rights." These amendments provided added rules and enumerated rights that eventually persuaded the stragglers to join the USA.

And now, the point of historical perspective: That happened less than 250 years ago. These events occured from 1776 to 1789, which means that 2020 is only 244 years back. That is not long enough for the stories to have faded from our culture. When I was in grade school, the USA had not yet celebrated its Bicentennial. We still heard stories about the rugged explorers, hunters, and trappers of our pioneering days. Our most recent states to join the union in the confines of the continental USA were New Mexico and Arizona in 1912, Oklahoma was 1907. Utah was 1896. When we talk of the "Wild West" we are talking about a time when current states were still territories with less law enforcement and military protection than we have now. Guns were still needed to tame those lands due to four-legged predators and two-legged varmints (who also carried guns). We are now talking about times within the familial memories of people who passed down stories from their living grandparents!

During all that time, the gun was the tool of taming a violent environment. Gun ownership in the USA has indeed diminished, but there are those who have that ancestral heritage that showed that the gun was the tool of personal protection. With us, that is still an echo reverberating through our families. Perhaps we are moving towards a time when guns will not be required. But thanks to my genealogy research, I can tell you of my great-great-grandparents who fought in the Civil War (on either side) and can tell you where some of my Confederate ancestors are buried in mass grave sites set aside for Civil War prisoners of war. The Confederacy lost that one - and probably should have lost - but it reinforced the idea that we needed guns in case the current government became oppressive enough to cause a true revolt.

That was one of the tremendous fears of our Founding Fathers - that the government of the USA would become equally as tyrannical as the remote governance of King George III had been. I will leave it to you to consider whether the current situation in the USA is one where you could successfully persuade anyone that we need to turn in our guns and trust the government. Given that factor in our culture, do you think we would?

I don't know if you are familiar with the work of graphic novelist Alan Moore or the movie V for Vendetta, but there is a significant line that has a lot of believers. "People should not fear their government; a government should fear its people." In the USA, we believe that our government derives its power from our continued permission as evidenced by our voting. We try to use the voting booth as a peaceful way to to assure that they remember that fact. You can use that general idea to see why Donald Trump got elected. With Hillary, a lot of us (including me) felt that she was "more of the same" and we had come to distrust that "sameness." The election of Donald Trump was essentially a "revolution in a ballot box."

Tera, I hope this helps you to understand better why we do at least some of what we do and why we remain adamant about having guns.

This was a great piece of writing, @The_Doc_Man
Somehow whenever this issue comes up, where we admittedly have to reach back to "a different time" in order to explain the original reasons (maybe) for the 2nd Amendment, I always feel the need to explain the reason why I choose to believe it's still relevant - not as much to argue or try to persuade the point itself, but simply to assert that "this is why some people interpret the 2nd Amendment the way they do, even today, despite a changed environment".
So we know for a fact that the founders wished to preserve the right to own arms. And admittedly, most people can agree that at least a part of that "wish" was probably borne out of a desire to avoid the need to resist a tyrannical government while having had arms prohibited. But some people basically "stop there". They say alright, since both of those are true, and since today most people don't fear that same brand of tyranny--or if they do, they likely don't see citizens owning semi automatic handguns as any kind of a real deterrent to the will of a US military, then they conclude OK--times are different, context is no longer there, thus 2nd Amendment should no longer be interpreted like it used to, OR, it should be repealed.
But I don't see any requirement for that interpretation. Sure, it's possible that the founders mostly had "tyrannical government" on their minds when they devised the 2nd Amendment. But that does not at all mean we should conclude that "tyrannical government" is the only basis for the 2nd Amendment. To me, the founding fathers had been stung from a recent example of one of the many forms of "harm" that can come to citizens, and consequently additional harm, if they are left powerless to defend themselves. I do not think it's rational to assume that the founders believed tyrannical government to be the only, limited, basis for this fear. Common sense makes it more likely that they were creating a basic rule: Risk of harm exists for all citizens for many reasons - as an example, a tyrannical government and local militias needed. Therefore, as a fundamental right, citizens should never be systematically deprived of whatever is the then-current, commonly attainable individual form of protection.

I see a principle that can be fairly applied to any technological advances--past, present and future. When mankind's best form of defense was a sword, the reasonable interpretation would have been to include swords. Now that mankind's best common form of individual defense is a firearm, then that ought to be the standard.

I'd say the majority of the current-day disagreement about the right to bear arms is that we all, with our opinions, have to fall somewhere on the spectrum, ranging from allowing nothing but slingshots, to allowing nuclear missiles, to be possessed by citizenry. I admit there are a lot of nuances and things to consider along those lines. The principle that I appreciate the founders made clear is that, While allowing people to possess lethal weaponry creates risks & challenges, the right to have a chance to defend yourself is fundamental to fairness and must be preserved.

Now we'll spend the next 200 years trying to agree on fully automatic weapons--when we finally agree, Walmart will be carrying armor-piercing lasers for $100. The law will never keep up with technology.

 

[deletedT]

@The_Doc_Man @Isaac
I think I'm going too much off topic, but I will ask it.

I'm sitting here thinking about your replies and try to understand what was explained. But there are too many questions that bother me.

1. What does tyrannical government means at all? I know the meaning of the phrase, but I fail to understand how you judge a government is tyrannical or not? Is it a per person judgement? Is there a line for this judgement? Is the limits of this phrase is defined in your constitution?
   Rephrasing from Doc's post :
   but it reinforced the idea that we needed guns in case the current government became oppressive enough to cause a true revolt.
   If an american citizen really thinks the government has become oppressive, is he allowed to use his arm against police or government?
   
   
2. All countries in America continent had the same situation. People had to protect themselves against nature and all other things that Doc explained. Did they reach the same conclusion? I mean is possessing firearms is allowed in other countries too? Canada, Mexico, or others?
   
   
3. I've seen this phrase so many times:
   The United States Constitution is often referred to as a "living document" that grows and changes as society moves forward. And no matter a person's view on constitutional interpretation, there's no doubt that amendments to the Constitution have changed the course of the American legal system.
   If it's true, don't you think that someday (in the past or in the future) second amendment should be changed? I mean even if I accept all what Doc explained and I understand why it was necessary at the time to be armed to secure yourself, I will come to this conclusion that maybe second amendment was necessary for that era in your history, but do you really need to keep it all the way to the far future? Will it be a point in future that you may say : We are secure and safe now. Let's delete second amendment...?

 

[deletedT]

on topic:

The first US COVID-19 app built on Apple and Google tracking tech is here

The Virginia Department of Health has launched COVIDWISE, an app that uses Apple and Google’s COVID-19 contact tracing technology to track coronavirus cases and notify users when they may have been exposed. State officials had been beta testing the app, which is the first to fully use Apple and...

www.engadget.com

Virginia's COVIDWISE app is out of beta and available on both mobile platforms.
The Virginia Department of Health has launched COVIDWISE, an app that uses Apple and Google’s COVID-19 contact tracing technology to track coronavirus cases and notify users when they may have been exposed. State officials had been beta testing the app, which is the first to fully use Apple and Google’s exposure notification API. As of today, the app is free to download in the Apple App Store and Google Play Store.

COVIDWISE doesn’t employ GPS to monitor a user’s location, but instead uses Bluetooth to communicate between devices. After downloading the app and opting in to the Exposure Notifications System, it will generate random, anonymous beacons for your device. Other phones in the area receive and store those beacons, and emit their own. “No location data or personal information is ever collected, stored or transmitted to VDH as part of the app,”VDH spokeswoman Julie Grimes told Virginia Public Media. “You can delete the app or turn off exposure notifications at any time.”

Virginia Department of Health
If an app user tests positive for COVID-19, a VDH official will give them a personal identification number that will be used to report the positive result to the app. Each day, phones with the app download a list of all the anonymous beacons associated with positive COVID-19 cases, and checks them against the list of beacons it has encountered in the previous two weeks. If there is a match, the user is notified and given steps to keep themselves and those around them safe.
Participation in the app is voluntary. The more that people download the app, the more effective it will be, Virginia health official Dr. Danny Avila told VPM. While the app could be helpful in letting people know whether they’ve encountered a COVID-19 case, it’s not a replacement for more rigorous forms of contact tracing that involve government officials obtaining an infected person’s information.
Virginia is the first state to use the exposure notification API. North Dakota, Alabama and South Carolina have signed on to use it, but haven’t launched public apps yet, according to 9to5 Mac.

Virginia becomes first US state to debut COVID-19 tracing app using Apple and Google API - 9to5Mac

The Exposure Notification API developed by Apple and Google is officially being put to use in the United States. Virginia...

9to5mac.com

 

[The_Doc_Man]

Three fair questions, Tera.

1. Tyrannical government is one that does not seem to respond to the needs of the people. A properly functioning constitutional representative democracy (as opposed to "true" democracy) as defined for the USA tries to represent everyone's needs as much as possible. One could easily argue that until we got rid of legalized slavery, we were failing in that regard. (No opposition here.) One could argue that until we enabled women to vote, that we were failing in that regard. (Again, no opposition here.) The "Black Lives Matter" movement, as far as I can tell from what I have seen, heard, and read, is NOT about USA governmental oppression of blacks, but of SOCIETAL oppression.

You judge a government to be tyrannical when enough people have had enough and successfully overthrow the tyrannical government. You are quite right that it is a relative, not absolute, viewpoint as to where tyranny starts. You would need a history expert or a good review article to enumerate the actions of George III of England with regard to the colonies, but he apparently crossed the line 'cause we fought - and won - the war.

2. Not all countries in the Americas had the same situation because some learned from our examples. Not only that, but we had multiple countries populating the colonies. Canada didn't fight a war of independence from France or England and many people stayed allegiant to the European founders. Many of the Spanish colonies in North America split from Spain. Mexico did too, eventually. But (with due respect, Tera), other people's experience in the colonies is irrelevant. We experienced what we experienced, or to paraphrase President Trump, "It was what it was." But to answer the question about gun laws in other countries, ... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Overview_of_gun_laws_by_nation

3. The U.S. Constitution is indeed a living document and might one day be amended regarding gun laws. However, it takes a lot of societal pressure to do that, and we have had experience with changes that don't work so well. The 13th amendment abolished slavery. The 14th Amendment extended the "Due Process of Law" concept. The 15th amendment established certain voting rights. So yes, it changes from time to time. But we also saw what happened when some people tried to legislate morality with the 18th amendment (alcohol prohibition) in 1919, and by 1933 the country ratified its repeal.

The question remains, will the USA ever feel safe enough to not keep guns? But if you look at world events, where thugs from Boko Haram kidnap children to keep them from getting a secular education, that would scare parents. You look at terrorists using IEDs and bomb vests in some areas. We have been attacked by terrorists ourselves. When you see riots in the streets of your own home town, as has happened in Detroit, Portland, Seattle, Los Angeles, Boston (we are talking over the last several DECADES), you see police stretched to their limit and unable to respond quickly (or at all, in the case of the Seattle "CHOP" area). You see rioters tearing apart businesses. And you want to tell people "Sorry but we can't protect you ... and oh, by the way, we are going to take away your guns so that YOU cannot protect yourself either." All I can say is "NO." That just isn't going to work here.

I don't know if I have adequately expressed your questions, Tera, and I would be happy to explore the situation further. However, I must admit that past a certain point, I am no better a source than a good web browser would be. It has been 55 years since I studied US History in school.

 

[Isaac]

Three fair questions, Tera.

1. Tyrannical government is one that does not seem to respond to the needs of the people. A properly functioning constitutional representative democracy (as opposed to "true" democracy) as defined for the USA tries to represent everyone's as much as possible. One could easily argue that until we got rid of legalized slavery, we were failing in that regard. (No opposition here.) One could argue that until we enabled women to vote, that we were failing in that regard. (Again, no opposition here.) The "Black Lives Matter" movement, as far as I can tell from what I have seen, heard, and read, is NOT about USA governmental oppression of blacks, but of SOCIETAL oppression.

You judge a government to by tyrannical when enough people have had enough and successfully overthrow the tyrannical government. You are quite right that it is a relative, not absolute, viewpoint as to where tyranny starts. You would need a history expert or a good review article to enumerate the actions of George III of England with regard to the colonies, but he apparently crossed the line 'cause we fought - and won - the war.

2. Not all countries in the Americas had the same situation because some learned from our examples. Not only that, but we had multiple countries populating the colonies. Canada didn't fight a war of independence from France or England and many people stayed allegiant to the European founders. Many of the Spanish colonies in North America split from Spain. Mexico did too, eventually. But (with due respect, Tera), other people's experience in the colonies is irrelevant. We experienced what we experienced, or to paraphrase President Trump, "It was what it was." But to answer the question about gun laws in other countries, ... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Overview_of_gun_laws_by_nation

3. The U.S. Constitution is indeed a living document and might one day be amended regarding gun laws. However, it takes a lot of societal pressure to do that, and we have had experience with changes that don't work so well. The 13th amendment abolished slavery. The 14th Amendment extended the "Due Process of Law" concept. The 15th amendment established certain voting rights. So yes, it changes from time to time. But we also saw what happened when some people tried to legislate morality with the 18th amendment (alcohol prohibition) in 1919, and by 1933 the country ratified its repeal.

The question remains, will the USA ever feel safe enough to not keep guns? But if you look at world events, where thugs from Boko Haram kidnap children to keep them from getting a secular education, that would scare parents. You look at terrorists using IEDs and bomb vests in some areas. We have been attacked by terrorists ourselves. When you see riots in the streets of your own home town, as has happened in Detroit, Portland, Seattle, Los Angeles, Boston (we are talking over the last several DECADES), you see police stretched to their limit and unable to respond quickly (or at all, in the case of the Seattle "CHOP" area). You see rioters tearing apart businesses. And you want to tell people "Sorry but we can't protect you ... and oh, by the way, we are going to take away your guns so that YOU cannot protect yourself either." All I can say is "NO." That just isn't going to work here.

I don't know if I have adequately expressed your questions, Tera, and I would be happy to explore the situation further. However, I must admit that past a certain point, I am no better a source than a good web browser would be. It has been 55 years since I studied US History in school.

I have to laugh at myself, I keep coming along and, totally unwanted by anyone, adding little personal clips to what Doc says. LOL. I hope no one minds?
Tera, I appreciated that in your response you raised a question which, inherent in the question itself, caused me to challenge myself on the tyrannical issue. It made me say Isaac? What exactly is the legitimacy of this "right to resist tyranny", if it is unable to be defined and essentially could be used in name for any end? My answer to myself was this: Yeah, it's basically unable to be defined. That's the downside. But if the right to resist tyranny is eliminated, then there is no chance of resisting tyranny. If the possibility of doing so is supported as a fundamental right, then there is a chance at resisting tyranny. All that being true, whatever tyranny may be. People here are comfortable with that ambiguity, it seems better than the alternative.

 

[deletedT]

I don't know if I have adequately expressed your questions, Tera, and I would be happy to explore the situation further. However, I must admit that past a certain point, I am no better a source than a good web browser would be. It has been 55 years since I studied US History in school.

Doc, you were and are excellent in answering my questions. If I insist and go round a circle and insist on my own beliefs, It's not because of your insufficient reply, but simply because of our cultural difference and it takes a little time for me to be able to stand in your shoes and see the world through your eyes.
I really appreciate every single word you address me.

 

[deletedT]

@The_Doc_Man

In case of the link you posted about gun laws in different countries, there was something I want to add to Japan's section in that article.

1- Most of our policemen/policewomen doesn't carry guns at all. Most of the rest who carry guns, their weapons are not loaded. It means they don't have shells. Only a rare part of them have loaded guns, and nobody can recognize who is carrying a loaded gun.
2- It's true that when they go to arrest a criminal, they put their guns in the station. It gives the one who is going to be arrested some kind of peace of mind.

 

[deletedT]

totally unwanted by anyone, adding little personal clips to what Doc says.

@Isaac I can't judge for others. But for me, I appreciate any reply you post. Not only your replies help me understand the situation, but the way I see you, you are one of those rare members here that sees (or tries to see) both sides (Rep, Dem) fairly and judge according to what you feel, not based on your political stand points.

 

[Isaac]

@Isaac I can't judge for others. But for me, I appreciate any reply you post. Not only your replies help me understand the situation, but the way I see you, you are one of those rare members here that sees (or tries to see) both sides (Rep, Dem) fairly and judge according to what you feel, not based on your political stand points.

Thanks for the kind words. That is my stated ideal, although I'm still guilty of getting caught up in some of my favorite "beliefs" and becoming closed on the issue, but I guess the best place to start is to make it at least be our goal.

 

[AccessBlaster]

Its all good to be balanced in your politics, as long as the people who are judging you are also balanced in their approach.