Boxing Ring (2 Viewers)

[jsanders]

Amongst many others, why not rip it up and start again?

Growing bored with insulting the president you now move to the Constitution?

It has inspired most of the free world, not to mention the very freedoms you enjoy. Most free nations can trace their roots to the US Constitution.

Try to limit your attacks to subjects where there is at least a chance, that you may be correct.

 

[Rich]

not to mention the very freedoms you enjoy

we're not free and neither are you, although we're more free than you, if you want to carry on believing the brainwashing issued forth by your establishment then so be it, but your constitution had nothing to do with our freedom however limited that may be.
I don't need to insult Bush either, he is an insult

 

[jsanders]

we're not free and neither are you, although we're more free than you, if you want to carry on believing the brainwashing issued forth by your establishment then so be it, but your constitution had nothing to do with our freedom however limited that may be.
I don't need to insult Bush either, he is an insult

In what way do you enjoy more freedom then us?
You keep spewing this kind of rhetoric and the only one convinced by it, is yourself. For such a smart guy you do exhibit some fairly close minded concepts.

 

[Rich]

In what way do you enjoy more freedom then us?
.

We aren't encumbered by the Patriot act to start with, tell me is covenant over property still legal over there?

 

[jsanders]

We aren't encumbered by the Patriot act to start with,/QUOTE]


So far, I think, only a hand full of people have been affected by the Patriot Act.

Judging by the feed back I hear from your side of the Atlantic; the news you get on the good old USA is highly biased.

People can completely withdraw from the system and move about unencumbered.

How do you define freedom? I suspect that if you are truly interested in finding out about us instead of posting irrelevant (however clever and humorous) statements. You would probably find yourself surprised and delighted.

My girl friend and I went to upstate PA last night to visit my great aint. I was perfectly free to go to the local store and buy some Lebanon bologna, made right there in Amish country (its some of the finest lunch meat in the whole world).

I didn’t need Bush propaganda to figure that one out.

What other freedoms am I missing?

 

[Rich]

We aren't encumbered by the Patriot act to start with,/QUOTE]


So far, I think, only a hand full of people have been affected by the Patriot Act.

Isn't the Patriot act aimed at Americans?

 

[jsanders]

Isn't the Patriot act aimed at Americans?

Yes it broadens the surveillance powers of the federal government to allow better tracking of potential terrorist.

Most Americans freedoms in some ways are acually enhanced by the act.

As the powers to investigate are expanded the amount of information collects at an unmanageable rate. This makes it counter productive to continue to investigate leads that are obviously benign. The danger here is that investigators have more freedom to initiate personal witch hunts. So the system needs to have some powerful and credible oversight to eliminate this possibility.

But logic would dictate that this act has other merit as well. For the most part of human history, villages provided their own policing. The local “law” pretty much knew who the bad guys were, and acted accordingly. As the populations have expanded beyond this capability, new methods had to be designed. But the propensity for abuse, by an individual law enforcement agent has always existed. At any time in the past if a policeman wanted someone dead, it pretty much would happen. At least now we are actually watching them as much or more than they are watching us.

There’s always a balance between liberty and protection. We will see the pendulum swing back in the near future.

It’s my understanding that Great Britain has many more video surveillance cameras than does the US. Doesn’t this pose a threat to British freedom?

 

[Rich]

We don't see video surveillance cameras as a threat to our freedom; they're an aid to crime detection.
The Patriot act though is aimed squarely at the people it's supposed to protect, a nonsense if ever there was

 

[Kraj]

We don't see video surveillance cameras as a threat to our freedom; they're an aid to crime detection.

Well, the Patriot Act is designed specifically to aid in crime detection and, to a lesser degree, enforcement.

The Patriot act though is aimed squarely at the people it's supposed to protect, a nonsense if ever there was

And your cameras aren't aimed at the people they're there to help protect? Are the cameras exclusively installed in criminals homes, then? Seems rather unnecessary...

 

[Rich]

Well, the Patriot Act is designed specifically to aid in crime detection and, to a lesser degree, enforcement.

I thought it was introduced because of the terrorist threat to the US?

And your cameras aren't aimed at the people they're there to help protect? Are the cameras exclusively installed in criminals homes, then? Seems rather unnecessary... :confused

The cameras are on the streets and other vulnerable areas, because that's where most crime takes place, but the cameras aren't there to investigate those who are going about their legitimate business.
I take the point you're making but I think you agree that the Patriot act is far more invasive than a camera

 

[jsanders]

I thought it was introduced because of the terrorist threat to the US?



The cameras are on the streets and other vulnerable areas, because that's where most crime takes place, but the cameras aren't there to investigate those who are going about their legitimate business.
I take the point you're making but I think you agree that the Patriot act is far more invasive than a camera

As I said earlier.

The ability of the citizenry to keep track of the government has actually increased faster than the other way. The errant law enforcement officer, or any government employee for that mater, is much more likely to be spotted than ever before.

We tend to negate that fact in these types of discussions.

 

[jsanders]

So we both, the US and the UK, live with surveillance; back to my question. How do you think you have more freedom then us?

 

[Kraj]

I take the point you're making but I think you agree that the Patriot act is far more invasive than a camera

I agree. But I think jsanders' point is that the Patriot Act, in practice, is not seriously detrimental to individuals' freedom. While the analysts were outraged at some of the violations of privacy the Act potentially allows, they're just not happening.

As an aside, the Patriot Act was designed in response to terrorism, yes, but it applies to internal law enforcement as well.

 

[Rich]

I was perfectly free to go to the local store and buy some Lebanon bologna, made right there in Amish country

Since it's not made in Lebanon how can it be called Lebanon bologna, is it made under licence to the Lebanese?

(its some of the finest lunch meat in the whole world).

How do you know this ?

What other freedoms am I missing?

Fancy a holiday to the sun drenched beaches of Cuba?

 

[jsanders]

Morning Neighbor,

This forum is starting to resemble the coffee shops my dad took us too in our youth.
It seams to be getting more civilized. We’re actually having conversations that are pleasant yet interesting.

Since it's not made in Lebanon how can it be called Lebanon bologna, is it made under licence to the Lebanese?:

You know I have no idea where it got its name. I do know that the Germans settled that part of Pennsylvania and the culture there is very different then else where in this country. For one thing the food they have in the stores is grown locally and it prepared more carefully than most other places.

So I did a Google on it.

http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=lebanon+bologna&spell=1

You just never know what you’ll find on a Google search. Some interesting reading there about the Germans and the microbiology of Lebanon bologna.

Turns out it’s just about Lebanon County in PA. But I still don’t know where it got its name.

How do you know this ?

That for a change was totally an opinion.

Fancy a holiday to the sun drenched beaches of Cuba?

We’re not even allowed to have trade with them as well. But that’s sort of fun. We all get our Cuban cigars from a mail order supplier in Hong Kong or something like that. Some of the guys from the tobacco store arrange trips there through Canada.

Most Americans think the whole Cubin thing is a big joke, except the Cuban Americans of course. They’re why we still don’t have relations with Cuba.

 

[Rich]

This forum is starting to resemble the coffee shops my dad took us too in our youth.

.

Drinking at such a young age is irresponsible

That for a change was totally an opinion.

Not from where I sit

Most Americans think the whole Cubin thing is a big joke, except the Cuban Americans of course. They’re why we still don’t have relations with Cuba

I see, so in America minority groups make government policy?

 

[jsanders]

I see, so in America minority groups make government policy?

Good Question Mr. Rich

It’s about our idiotic and antiquated method of using the Electoral College to elect our presidents.

You see Florida is a large population state, not like California, New York, or Texas, but larger than average. I think most states have an all or none policy about their electoral votes. So in an important swing state like Florida all the Cubin Americans have to do is vote as a block and all the Florida votes go to one candidate.

Florida was the swing state in the 2004 Elections.

So yeah in some cases the minority can have a disproportionate affect.

 

[JoeSanders]

We, the so called thinking people, tend to view the world as a debate between one way of accomplishing something or another. We condone or condemn actions against evil or tyranny, as excessive or insufficient, depending on our latest point of view.

But when anyone is confronted with the personal consequences of destructive acts, it seems their paradigm shifts.

The true enemies of mankind are really not the undesirable leaders of free countries. It’s the ones bent on destruction of any kind that threaten us.

We are all going to need to work together to quell this trend, less our children live in a worse world than us.

 

[ColinEssex]

The true enemies of mankind are really not the undesirable leaders of free countries. It’s the ones bent on destruction of any kind that threaten us.

I agree, its the undesirable leaders of the free countries that are bent on destruction of any kind that threaten us

Did you know that in the foyer of the Al-Rashid hotel in Baghdad there is a huge floor mosaic of George Bush senior, put there by Saddam in thanks to all the "help" he had from him during his term.

Col

 

[TessB]

Did you know that in the foyer of the Al-Rashid hotel in Baghdad there is a huge floor mosaic of George Bush senior, put there by Saddam in thanks to all the "help" he had from him during his term.

I wonder if that belonged in the useless facts thread.