Green Energy is a giant crock of sh...

[John Big Booty]

Agreed - but what if the cost of all good things mean you can't afford a house??

Already, I think you will find that the cost of owning your own home is well beyond the reach of most first home owners, and these measures are yet to really come into force.

What these measures should mean however is that once you do own your own home the running cost SHOULD be considerably reduced.

 

[Alc]

Alc, just don't go blindly in any direction. Be prepared to dig just a little bit deeper. It is worth it to save energy. It is worth it to keep the wolf from the door for a while longer. But be aware of the price you pay.

I figure the build - if it happens at all - is at least five years away. Not only will technology no doubt change dramatically by the time I get around to it, but I won't be rushing into anything. I'm picking a subject a week (on average) e.g. insulation, power, heating, etc. and getting some notes down during spare moments.

Here's one that I though was a slam dunk until I researched it. Double-pane insulting windows. Great idea, right? Not as much as you'd think. After looking into it, I find that they are often made with aluminum frames. Aluminum is also used in cookware. Do you know why? Because they have very good coefficients of thermal conductivity. Copper is #1, aluminum is at least top 10 on that. Might be top 5. So you insulate the windows, but the solid aluminum frames conduct the heat right through. You know what is the better insulator? Wood frame windows. If you made your double-pane windows with wood frames, you'd have better insulation. As it is, if you were thinking about installing double-pane windows in your house to save money on electrical bills, you get a higher installation cost than ordinary windows. The difference takes at least 10 years to recoup the investment. Which is about how long it takes for the caulking and seals to dry up on the windows so that they must be replaced. If you were planning to install insulating windows to increase the resale value of your house, forget it. You'll never get back what you pay for them without a long-term commitment to the house.

That one is interesting. Depressing, but interesting.

However, there IS a catch to that. If you live in a country that offers an energy-saving tax break, that can offset the cost enough to make it worth your while again. Look into the availability and amount of the break before you take it, though. An example this time, not of a hidden cost, but a hidden benefit.

Just got our tax break on a new furnace and fan. Paid for itself in a few months, so I was happy enough. Like you say, the breaks are there if you're willing to look.

Oh, as to whether I'm a good bluffer or not... care to visit New Orleans and play some poker? At cards, I never lie. And if you believe that, I've got some prime South Louisiana real estate for you. After the recent well blow-out, it's a real slick deal.

Unless it's low-stakes Happy Families, carsd are beyond my abilities. Can't keep a straight face if I have a good hand

 

[Steve R.]

The New York Times today has an article: Farmers Cope With Roundup-Resistant Weeds. While this article does not concern "green energy", it does raise the potential of using "green technologies" rather than continuing down the path of persistently applying new exotic technology to "conquer" nature.

Quote from the Times article:

Just as the heavy use of antibiotics contributed to the rise of drug-resistant supergerms, American farmers’ near-ubiquitous use of the weedkiller Roundup has led to the rapid growth of tenacious new superweeds.

 

[The_Doc_Man]

Interesting (about Round-up resistant weeds). A friend of mine from my Chemistry days told me about Kleen-Up and Round-Up. I forget which one is which, but they kill plants by making them do something too fast.

One of them makes the plants "sweat" too much, thus dehydrating themselves. The technical term is that it increases a plant's transpiration rate.

The other takes longer to work but what it does is it makes the plant GROW too fast. It uses up its nutrients faster than it can replenish them and essentially starves itself to death over the long term.

I just don't remember which is which.

 

[Brianwarnock]

Here's one that I though was a slam dunk until I researched it. Double-pane insulting windows. Great idea, right? Not as much as you'd think. After looking into it, I find that they are often made with aluminum frames. .

Its along time since I saw aluminium framed double glazing, over here all the frames are solid PVC, how does that compare heat loss wise?

Brian

 

[Rich]

Wood is the best insulator when fitting double glazing, but of course it rots, aluminium and upvc of course doesn't rot

 

[Access_guy49]

Now i know this site is probably Biased, but Riches comment got me thinking, So i went looking around on the internet a little.
http://www.pvcwindows.com.cn/ns_PVC Windows Advantage _77.htm

Another site i read indicated that the efficiency in the PVC insulation was something around twice that of aluminum.

 

[Galaxiom]

Just found this thread. Doc's post is well back but it has errors which need addressing.

Hadn't seen that article on 41% efficiency in solar power. However, it would have the effect of cutting my sizes in half for the solar-power discussion.

Although higher efficiency technologies do exist they invariably use exotic materials and are not cost effective compared to the existing silicon cells. One particularly ridiculous technology uses Cadmium Telluride. Aside from the danger of the material when it burns (as would happen occasional in a house fire) there is not enough Tellurium on the planet to make it practical.

Just remember, we can never get more than 6 watts per square meter ANYWHERE on Earth from solar at 100% efficiency

Incorrect. Insolation at the equator is about 1000 Watts per square metre about eqaul proportions of light and heat.

Here's another gotcha. You know those lovely all-electric cars with the lithium ion batteries? They work great until the batteries finally degrade to the point of not holding a charge for longer than an hour or two. When you go to dispose of those batteries, they qualify as TOXIC WASTE!

Ever heard of recycling? I believe Toyota includes this as part of the deal when you buy one of their hybrid or electric models.

Remember, resistance in a circuit is computed by intrinsic resistance times linear distance and I think there is an added factor due to the inverse frequency relationship of the implied RC and LC frequencies of any circuit. The bigger the circuit, the bigger the R and C, and I think the L factor goes up too. This is one of the reasons why Nikolas Tesla's generators were not efficient. Tesla's system was direct current, whereas Edison used alternating current. Tesla's long-haul lines suffered EMF losses due to LC and RC issues.

For the non-electrical engineers among you, circuits have inherent frequencies based on the Resistance-Capacitance - RC - or Inductance-Capacitance - LC - characteristics of the circuit. When you hear an electronics techie talking about "ringing" in a circuit, this comes from the LC and RC properties of said circuit forming the electronic equivalent of an acoustic resonator box on a guitar or violin.

A somewhat confused and inaccurate explanation.
Firstly Tesla used AC while Edison used DC. A typo I guess.

The losses in power lines are very little to do with incuctance and capacitance of the transmission circuit itself. AC does loose power through electromagnetic radiation by inducing currents in nearby conductors but this has zilch to do with resonance. Losses are quite low in air but undersea transmission is always done in DC becuse salt water is conductive.

Inductance in long line DC transmission would be a bigger problem. The current would simply continue as an arc across any break in the conductor. High voltage DC voltage is a circuit fault protection nightmare. DC arcs are very difficult to extinguish. This is why DC lines are always incredibly well protected and voltages are very low compared to AC. You won't ever see them as overhead lines. The thought of a 330 KV DC transmission line would be terrifying indeed.

In very long AC power lines where the length reaches a significant fraction of the wavelength (5000 to 6000 km) it can cause devestating resonances when loads change suddenly. A great deal of attention is paid to this factor in long distance power line design.

The big weakness of DC in Edison's day was the impossibility of transforming voltages to reduce the current and hence the transmission losses. The only way then might have been with motor generator set but a high voltage mechanical commutator is impractical. Tesla invented transformers which we still use today with voltages in the hundreds of thousands.

Load inductance causes the current to lag behind the voltage wave and increase the current relative to the power, lowering the Power Factor and increasing losses resistive losses. However large consumers generally correct their power factor because they are charged on current rather than power. This was not practical in Tesla's day because capacitors were not advanced enough. It is no longer an issue.

Moreover the power factor is fully corrected for most of the generators at the power station by devoting a specially configured generator to supply the lagging current of inductive loads. The other generators supply in phase current very, very efficiently.

As I mentioned earlier, just remember that the price you pay for going solar is the amount of square footage you must dedicate to capturing the rays.

Perhaps not in some places but more than enough space is available on the roof of most homes in Australia to generate their entire electrical needs using existing technology.

 

[PNGBill]

I think this is an excellent subject to discuss but as there is no "Bible" of where we should get our energy from, until the end of the world, then all options should be on the table and especially given the vast climatic differences around this planet.

It is a fact many Australian outback / lifestyle families use renewable energy as there only source of power and seem to be happy with this.
The mayor of Brisbane spent AUD22,000 to install pv panels on his house roof and has surplus energy - not sure if all daily needs are covered but I think the article did say this.
The problem is we compare the cost to our current low power bill and not against the pending cost of electricity.

Leakage via window frames - any studies on the energy required to get the house back to "normal" when you open the door to let the cat out??
It is a proven fact that double glazing makes a difference.
Making it mandatory is another matter.

We have found out that our homes must breath which prevents us from totally insulating them - ie as a fridge is. Some loss is to be expected

I have seen where houses can use underground stable temperature to run fluids through the house to cool in summer and warm in winter. A house in the UK (grand design) included an indoor pool to retain warmth.

Many options available and so long as we don't close any off we should be able to provide energy sustainably in the future, or at least our grand children will.

 

[Galaxiom]

I think this is an excellent subject to discuss but as there is no "Bible" of where we should get our energy from

Too bad, as given the extent of the moral misguidance in the Holy Bible (esp Volume 1) we would know which ideas to rule out immediately.

 

[PNGBill]

lets not start another stream

 

[Galaxiom]

lets not start another stream

Then I would advise you to refrain from making reference to the concept that some old book of amoral tales dreamed up by neolithic goat herders has anything to offer humanity.

Our language is littered with the implication of supposed wisdom attributed to the entrenched bigotry of religion. I am somewhat inclined to comment whereever I encounter them in an effort to raise the awareness of their unhealthy influence on our societies.

 

[PNGBill]

Can't argue although my ref was "bible" eg I have a Linux Bible and i think in NZ (not ref to Null) is a copy of Access Bible.
Not as old as the one earlier referred to but still very hard to read cover to cover and can be of assistance in a tricky situation.

 

[Galaxiom]

I would not buy a book with the title including that word. It is exactly that kind of reference I spoke of above. Such a book alludes to closing the mind and hence induce stagnation of knowledge.

BTW You did use a capital B in your original post I belive this means the Holy Bible is implied.

 

[Brianwarnock]

I would not buy a book with the title including that word. It is exactly that kind of reference I spoke of above. Such a book alludes to closing the mind and hence induce stagnation of knowledge.

BTW You did use a capital B in your original post I belive this means the Holy Bible is implied.

Guess its not only religious freaks that go over the top.

Brian

 

[Galaxiom]

Personally I think, Brian, and a lot of others agree, that the Holy Books and the cults they attract are the most insidious institutions in the history of society.

Every true believer exalts these books on the basis of the supposed fulfilment of the prophecies. Every true believer eagerly awaits the fulfilment of the Armageddon prophecy where the world is run by their faction and everyone else dies.

Ask yourself how many true believers of the factions of the Abrahamic traditons live on this planet. Now ask yourself if humanity is heading for destruction and tell me again that my reaction is extreme.

 

[The_Doc_Man]

Galaxiom -

The errors in my post weren't all errors. The comments about making a high-efficiency panel actually coincides with my line of thought. First you can't get enough of the stuff you need for the high-efficiency panels, and second it is more polluting and dangerous to have all those nasty chemicals together where one "accident" poisons the place for decades.

I don't recall where I got the insolation numbers, but I looked them up again. OK, not 6 watts/sq.meter - I was shooting from (an obviously inaccurate) memory. BUT - the principles are correct. Every square meter you use for solar electricity is a dead square meter to anything in the chlorophyll cycle - which is the bottom of a very big food pyramid. Undercut the foundation and the whole structure topples.

The point is that solar energy, wind energy, you-name-it energy isn't free. We have to do something to get it or to save it. The question will always be, where is the break-even point? You need to know that before you go into any "green" project.

 

[John Big Booty]

Personally I think, Brian, and a lot of others agree, that the Holy Books and the cults they attract are the most insidious institutions in the history of society.

........

I believe that Brain's point was that it is not just the Religious "True Believers" that exhibit these traits, but also Atheists, such as yourself, who insist on trumpeting the virtues of non belief, to anyone and everyone. Atheism in that form could equally be describe as a cult.

Personally what you believe or don't believe is a private matter and should not be forcefully shared with, or imposed on anyone else.

 

[Galaxiom]

I am not trumpetting the virtues of Atheism. My concern is the dangers of the influence of religion on society.

Religions have successfully instilled a sense that we must "respect" them. This respect is manifested in western society as not entering into discussion of religious topics. This positions is promoted by those who realise that religious differences, by definition, are insoluble.

I wouldn't have a problem with this except the same religions demand a strong influence on the governance of our societies. Essentially they argue that their phiilosopy aught to be the centrepiece of law while simultaneously arguing that their position is beyond question.

This is fascism and is highly evident today in the extremes of religion as shown Islamist states. History records a similar phase in the development of the Christian Church. Hilter's fascism flourished because nobody stood up against it util it was too late.

As I said earlier, Armageddon is the cherished goal of every true believer. I have no intentions of standing back while they trash the planet in the persuit of validation of the word of their prophet as reported in their Book. They actually WANT it.

Many tolerant unbelievers and the more open minded of the believers are content with the current situation where nobody talks about the philosophy underlying religious belief. This needs to change.

Religious belief by definition is doctine and inevitably stifles the potential for extending the sophistication of our moral sensibilities. This in itself is philosophically corrupt.

Moreover the books forming the foundations of religious beliefs are easily shown to be exactly for what they are. Auditory hallucinations of bigoted men who made the extraordinary and arrogant presumption that their every thought was the absolute truth granted them by a deity. It is primitive. It is destructive. It is an insult to the collective intelligence of humanity.

Meanwhile they demand the lion's share of influence over us. Wake up. Overcome the churches' prohibitions on criticism and speak out. If we don't, the religionists will manifest their preordained Armageddon. Unfortunately the planet they propose to destroy is the same one we inhabit.

I have a responsibility to speak out for the sake of my grandchildren. What I say sometimes offends those who are not yet familiar with the extent of influence held over us by religion. Too bad.

 

[Brianwarnock]

I cannot believe that PNGBill's comment
I

think this is an excellent subject to discuss but as there is no "Bible" of where we should get our energy from,

can produce such an over reaction.
The Cambridge Dictionary has amongst its definitions of bible

• a book, magazine, etc. which gives important advice and information about a particular subject

I , and I'm sure almost ever other reader, knows that that was the meaning that Bill was using, and further more have used that meaning ourselves.

It was a Haynes' manual that was my bible that kept my 105E Anglia (think Harry Potter) on the road as a young man.

Brian