Attack on Israel (2 Viewers)

[The_Doc_Man]

All of you who agree with what Israel has done to Palestinian Men, Women, and Children who had nothing to do with Hamas are living a lie, a life of cruelty, and mendacity.

All who agree that Israel has the right to protect itself and to dissuade future incursions by terrorists and murderers will disagree with you.

 

[amorosik]

All who agree that Israel has the right to protect itself and to dissuade future incursions by terrorists and murderers will disagree with you.

No

 

[amorosik]

Replying as a moderator, I will state that I have watched the interplay here. Since I participate in this forum, I cannot claim a lack of bias, but in the past (and Pat would confirm this, because I have annoyed her more than once) I have stepped in and tried to tone down the rhetoric. Lately, she has stayed inside the guidelines. So have you, amorosik. (For which I thank you both.)

".... there are "no words" for the depth of your depravity..."
"...If you (and the rest of the terrorist lovers here) ..."

Let me get this straight, do you consider needlessly and repeatedly offending the participants in a post "...inside the guidelines..."?

 

[amorosik]

My basic question is simple and if you can't answer it, your other arguments become questionable: When your enemy publicly and repeatedly vows to kill you and your families and friends without exception - and in fact attempts to actually do so, do you have the right to use lethal force to defend yourself? YES or NO? Don't bring in side arguments. Don't look for "Yes but..." cases. YES or NO?

YES

 

[amorosik]

My basic question is simple and if you can't answer it, your other arguments become questionable: When your enemy publicly and repeatedly vows to kill you and your families and friends without exception - and in fact attempts to actually do so, do you have the right to use lethal force to defend yourself? YES or NO? Don't bring in side arguments. Don't look for "Yes but..." cases. YES or NO?

Now it's my turn
Do you, personally, believe that the Israeli government and military are DEFENDING THEMSELVES?
Don't look for "Yes but..." cases. YES or NO?

 

[Steve R.]

Now it's my turn

As of yet you have not answered my question: "What is your vision of a peace that would would guarantee the existence of Israel and the safety of Israeli citizens?"

 

[amorosik]

As of yet you have not answered my question: "What is your vision of a peace that would would guarantee the existence of Israel and the safety of Israeli citizens?"

Any possibility that does not involve the extermination of a population

 

[The_Doc_Man]

This morning, the ONLY possible solution that doesn't involve complete annihilation of Gaza has been given a flickering hope. Hamas has indicated they are willing to negotiate in a way that involves hostage release in exchange for release of captured militants. The part that MIGHT be sticky is disarmament of Hamas. Trump negotiated it, but has made it clear that it is this or further escalation. Many of us have said that this was all on Hamas. Remember, it takes two to fight. It ALSO takes two to decide to NOT fight.

Do you, personally, believe that the Israeli government and military are DEFENDING THEMSELVES?

Yes. I do.
My father, for many years in his life, was a fire fighter. He told me the rule for fighting fires. If there are still open flames - even small ones, you aren't done. As long as Hamas was performing attacks - even small ones, Israel wasn't done.

 

[amorosik]

Yes. I do.

Ok, now all is clear

 

[Steve R.]

Any possibility that does not involve the extermination of a population

Seemingly this would imply that the Palestinians would:

• Re-develop Gaza along the lines of a nation/state similar to Singapore.
• Not re-construct Gaza as a fortress.
• Recognize the right of Israel to exist.
• Renounce the existing goal of genocide against Israel.
• Cease attacking Israel.

 

[amorosik]

It certainly implies renouncing the massacre of Palestinians

 

[The_Doc_Man]

I'm stepping in as a moderator. Another member has filed a report on something in this thread. I'll avoid naming names.

PLEASE remember to keep it civil. The forum rules allow us to express opinions, but we MUST not directly insult other members. This forum has been heating up. One historical solution for cooling off a forum thread is to close it, temporarily or permanently. Stay within forum guidelines on all comments, please.

- Richard

 

[Pat Hartman]

Then, without warning, there is another attack.

Somehow, when they run out of bombs and bullets, they call for "peace". Then they rearm and immediately attack again. Hamas has broken every peace treaty they agreed to. I'm done. Israel is done. When is the world going to catch on to the playbook?

 

[Pat Hartman]

All of you who agree with what Israel has done to Palestinian Men, Women, and Children who had nothing to do with Hamas are living a lie, a life of cruelty, and mendacity.

What part of holding their own people hostage to use as human shields do you not understand? Please, in your wisdom, tell us - what is Israel to do? How do they get past the human shields? How do they stop Hamas from bombing Israeli schools, playgrounds and hospitals? Hamas is aiming to do as much civilian damage as they possibly can. Should Israel simply let Hamas keep killing Israeli children? Please, how does Israel make Hamas stop? The Palestinian position is KILL ALL THE JEWS from the river to the sea. NO JEW can survive. That's pretty hard to get past, don't ya' think?

 

[The_Doc_Man]

Although I have no known relatives in Israel, in order to have a fair understanding of one reason why I side with Israel, and as a matter of fair disclosure:

My great-great-(+maybe one more great, need to look it up) grandmother left Tours, France for the city of New Orleans in the mid-1800s due to a French pogrom against Jews. My biological ethnic heritage is 1/4 European Jewish though I do not adhere to that religion - and in fact, my Jewish grandmother changed to Church of Christ Scientist in the 1940s, disavowing Judaism for reasons I have no way to discover. I am aware through personal family history of how often Jews have been forced to resettle elsewhere because of hatred. I will not go to live in Israel because my family is here, but I side with the Israelis when they seek to preserve what should have been their home centuries ago.

 

[Pat Hartman]

I actually have good friends, one of whom was born in Israel who have a child and other relatives who live there which they visit frequently also. So I do get many of my details directly from them and I can tell you, having to have a bomb shelter in your yard and having to take refuge there many times each week is a hellish way to have to live. The playgrounds in their daughter's town are all underground so children never get to play in the sunshine The Iron Dome only works if you are far enough away from the rocket launch for responding mistles have time to acquire the incoming
before it hits something.

Hamas and Hezbollah ALWAYS target civilians. They strive to create as much chaos and panic in the daily lives of Israelis as they can.

It certainly implies renouncing the massacre of Palestinians

What part of it is NOT a massacre do you not understand? Oct 7th, now THAT was a massacre! What part of the terrorists always launch from and store their missiles in schools, hospitals, and apartment buildings do you not understand? Yes, more Palestinians are likely to die during the average attack and response than Jews but why? Do you even know? Why is this the fault of Israel? Why does Israel actually bother to send emails, texts, and phone calls to Gaza residents before launching retaliatory rockets? Why does Hamas force the residents to remain in buildings that are being targeted? Why do they want their own people to die? If they cared about the people, they would let them run and hide but they don't care about their people. All they care about are the optics of Israeli bombs killing "innocent" Palestinian citizens. They've sure got you and a lot of other people bamboozled.

 

[amorosik]

You're writing that the Hamas massacre is a massacre
But that the Israeli massacre isn't a massacre?
That's a really curious way of thinking, I'd never thought of that

We should write to all the thousands of people demonstrating in Tel Aviv, Rome, Barcelona, Paris, London, Rabat, Istambul, Giacarta, NewYork Casablanca, Dublin, Stockholm, Tangeri and around the world to inform them of this
It would be good for them to know that what happened in Gaza isn't a massacre

 

[amorosik]

.... They've sure got you and a lot of other people bamboozled....

Third time

If you're not capable of communicating in a civil manner, perhaps it's best for you to avoid writing
What do you say?
I'm saying this for you
I can take it, it's not a problem

 

[Pat Hartman]

But that the Israeli massacre isn't a massacre?

No. The Israeli's do NOT target civilians. The civilians who die in Gaza when a building is bombed, die because Hamas refuses to allow them to evacuate to safety. So, their deaths are on the head of Hamas, not Israel. Israel always gives warning of their targets. This makes it hard to actually kill the bad guys but Hamas takes advantage by ensuring that there are ample civilian causalities to show the world to get the sympathy of people who are already antisemitic and who don't look too deeply into what is going on.

On the other hand Hamas ALWAYS targets civilians. Their charter is to KILL ALL the Jews. Their INTENTION is DEATH to the Jews. Israel is defending itself from the terrorists. The Muslim position is that Jews have no right to live anywhere they live. Jews have been persecuted and expelled from all Arab countries. Millions of Jews AND Christians used to live all over the Middle East. They have been persecuted and driven out. I know that's just actual history and you can't be bothered with history because it might influence your current opinions.

Hamas has won the publicity war because antisemitism is alive and well in the world. Do not let the terrorists cloud your judgement. Even the NYT is part of the scam. Their retraction for the recent bogus picture of the starving child was on page 999999 so no one saw it. All they remember is the very sad front page picture of the "starving" child in his mother's arms which was a bald faced lie and so they were forced to retract it but retractions always get buried in the obits. They are never on the front page.

 

[The_Doc_Man]

Pat's comment is correct in one sense: Hamas has manipulated their own people to be martyrs for their cause. But that manipulation is never shown and thus is not as visible as the pictures of the poor children. In this case, the manipulation hides the lies of Hamas as to WHY those kids were hurt or killed. How many Hamas "martyrs" were shooting or launching missiles from the place where those kids were staying? Because THAT is the tactic that got those kids killed or wounded.

We recently had a U.S. Supreme Court case dealing with the use of lethal force. The court concluded that while circumstances exist to justify use of lethal force, it is necessary to look at more than just the immediate events. The precursor events need to also be considered. In this current discussion, that is again a valid consideration.

Israel learned something from the opening of the movie Patton. Paraphrasing, "The goal of a soldier is not to die for his country. It is to make the opponents die for THEIR country." Israel has LOTS of success in doing that when facing people who have such anger as to be willing to be a martyr. But Hamas is guiding that narrative by inflaming people behind the scenes, and doing so at a time when logic is overwhelmed by emotion. It is the ultimate in manipulation to catch your fighters when they are vulnerable to other forces than logic.

In this case, Israel sees a clearly defined problem - Hamas - and a clearly defined solution - end Hamas. The leaders of Hamas have repeatedly been the driving force in attacks on Israelis in recent history. This is no "conflict" or "police action." This is an outright war. By analogy with World War II, the USA and its allies fought until Germany, Italy, and Japan surrendered and agreed to disarmament and a military presence to verify compliance. They demonstrated the ability to apply lethal force wherever they thought was necessary. Germany and Italy surrendered when their leaders were neutralized. Japan surrendered because they feared the "German" solution of dividing up their country as spoils of war (when Russia declared war on Japan).

The Hamas-led forces, if not fully disarmed, would just bide their time and start over again. Heck, even with a military presence for several years, they might just wait a generation and do it gain anyway. The only solution is one in which Hamas loses every bit of power and influence. And that is likely to be a sticking point.