Pat Hartman has left the building

[Thales750]

About how other people see us. I think there are certain standards that all societies have in common and they mostly relate to integrity. If we spend our entire lives practicing actions that demonstrate integrity then the people that count are going to respect us and like us and their opinion of us will reflect that.
And the reality is, you can tell yourself you don't care what other people think, and you can create barriers that offer you protection but you do care and you should care, because if caring helps you learn how to have more integrity then their opinions matter.
Many of the people in my life that have made a mantra out of saying, I don't care what people think of me, often have social behaviors that make people not like them.

 

[Isaac]

About how other people see us. I think there are certain standards that all societies have in common and they mostly relate to integrity. If we spend our entire lives practicing actions that demonstrate integrity then the people that count are going to respect us and like us and their opinion of us will reflect that.
And the reality is, you can tell yourself you don't care what other people think, and you can create barriers that offer you protection but you do care and you should care, because if caring helps you learn how to have more integrity then their opinions matter.
Many of the people in my life that have made a mantra out of saying, I don't care what people think of me, often have social behaviors that make people not like them.

I care whether my behavior aligns with what's right and decent, but not what their opinion is of me - it's a fine line. That's just me.

And I agree, there are plenty of people who give it a bad name, who say I don't care what people think of me and then act badly.

For me, it's a way of just doing what's right and other people's opinions of me are none of my business. Else (as social media has proved to society), one quickly becomes a slave of other people's opinions.

Not caring what other people think of me does NOT mean not caring about how my actions affect people, it means once you've done what you think is right, continuing to allow others' opinions to occupy space in your head, bad idea.

 

[moke123]

Yes, we visited Faneuil Hall. We took three walking tours and one hop-on hop-off bus tour. Suffice to say we got our steps in

View attachment 122198
My daughter and me on a cold and windy day.

Too bad Hoover the talking seal isn't alive anymore. He was always fun to go see after the bars.

Hoover (seal) - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

My sister lived a few blocks away on commercial street for years. we'd do the hall often.

 

[AccessBlaster]

I care whether my behavior aligns with what's right and decent, but not what their opinion is of me - it's a fine line. That's just me.

And I agree, there are plenty of people who give it a bad name, who say I don't care what people think of me and then act badly.

For me, it's a way of just doing what's right and other people's opinions of me are none of my business. Else (as social media has proved to society), one quickly becomes a slave of other people's opinions.

Not caring what other people think of me does NOT mean not caring about how my actions affect people, it means once you've done what you think is right, continuing to allow others' opinions to occupy space in your head, bad idea.

Well said, Isaac. Some people here lack self-awareness and fail to see that their words and vitriol contribute to the current climate. We’ve all had a hand in this, and very few of us are immune to the hypocrisy.

 

[AccessBlaster]

I admitted to "putting the batteries on P.." thus fueling her anger, and I should've backed off, but my strong convictions about the subject we were debating, plus all the past history between me and her, and how I saw her treating others, brought out my demons.

Truth be told, there were about five or six of us who go back many years, even before COVID-19. In many ways, COVID was the catalyst that brought us to where we are today.

 

[The_Doc_Man]

I admitted to "putting the batteries on P.." thus fueling her anger, and I should've backed off, but my strong convictions about the subject we were debating, plus all the past history between me and her, and how I saw her treating others, brought out my demons.

NOTE: Something's wrong with doing searches in AWF. Has anyone else experienced that anomaly?

Several people have noted the problem. There is a formal report about it. No response from Jon yet.

 

[KitaYama]

it is good to want to please people. Good - but not mandatory. I usually settle for "have people who don't hate me." That is easier to reach. Getting everyone to like me? Ain't gonna happen.

I think there's a difference between "caring for others" and "pleasing others". Maybe I failed to show how I think, even though I used "Care" multiple times.

I care whether my behavior aligns with what's right and decent, but not what their opinion is of me

Can you guarantee that your idea of what’s right and decent is truly correct?
Isn’t it possible that those who do wrong, also act from a belief that they’re doing what’s right?
Right and wrong often depend on perspective — culture, upbringing, experience.
If everyone’s convinced their values are the right ones, how can you tell you're actually right?

A hard question:
Do you really think that pat believed that her behaviour was wrong?
Hint : No, she assumed she was on the correct side.

 

[NauticalGent]

Hint : No, she assumed she was on the correct side.

And therein was the problem

 

[moke123]

I kinda feel like an unemployed fact checker.

 

[The_Doc_Man]

Aw, moke... should I throw a lie your way just to help you keep in practice?

 

[moke123]

Aw, moke... should I throw a lie your way just to help you keep in practice?

Nah, I get plenty of practice IRL. After 40+ years it's second nature.

 

[Isaac]

Can you guarantee that your idea of what’s right and decent is truly correct?
Isn’t it possible that those who do wrong, also act from a belief that they’re doing what’s right?
Right and wrong often depend on perspective — culture, upbringing, experience.
If everyone’s convinced their values are the right ones, how can you tell you're actually right?

This , obviously, is the great conundrum of life that we face - establishing what we think is right.

I invite various outside opinions into my life about what is right and wrong, but "what people think of me" is a specific thing in English, it's people's opinions about me after everything is said and done. This is where I draw the line.

I carefully curate the list of people who I allow to have influence over my life, the vast majority of people's opinions are not inside that well drawn circle.

 

[Isaac]

A hard question:
Do you really think that pat believed that her behaviour was wrong?
Hint : No, she assumed she was on the correct side.

I disagree; I think deep down she knew that her outbursts, the more extreme ones, were too inflammatory, but thought she could do it regardless because of tenure and establishment here.

People often do things they know are wrong; not everything people do is because they think they're right.

 

[NauticalGent]

but thought she could do it regardless because of tenure and establishment here.

I thought so too, but I cant say for sure now. One thing for sure is SOMETHING was off. Towards the end, I was in disbelief. Even her "antagonists" knew when discretion and strategic withdrawal were needed.

 

[Cotswold]

I am a little disappointed that Pat has had her forum posts regarding Access advice removed. Her opinions and advice over the years must have helped hundreds if not thousands of Access users. If everyone did that the forum would become insignificant.
Additionally, I am surprised that postings when added don't become the property/copyright of access-programmers.

Surely the decision to delete being the option of Jon alone, or from advice given. I will reiterate that I refer to technical Access posts, IT, computer language and software etc. Watercooler and similar opinion related posts I don't include and can understand that some may require deletions.

 

[dalski]

I am a little disappointed that Pat has had her forum posts regarding Access advice removed. Her opinions and advice over the years must have helped hundreds if not thousands of Access users. If everyone did that the forum would become insignificant.

Agree completely, I'm very grateful for the help & guidance Pat gave me & time taken from her day to generously explain things I could not have understood without her. I cannot count how many times I fail to understand something & load my old threads to rediscover the answer. Now a considerable number of them are gone.

The Pareto Principle is greatly evident in the forum & removing such a valuable contributor's posts is not helpful. Shows great character from @Jon in honouring Pat's wishes at his own personal expense (lower SEO rank I'd imagine & less valuable content on forum now). That's in no way a dig at anyone here obviously, it's a compliment to some very capable, generous users; @MajP, @The_Doc_Man , @cheekybuddha, @MarkK , @isladogs, @arnelgp , @Minty, @RonPaii ... 80% of the work done by < 20% of the members whom astutely, concisely provide fantastic solutions. Very generous with their time & expertise. Apologies to anyone I've left out.

Additionally, I am surprised that postings when added don't become the property/copyright of access-programmers.

Pretty sure they do, T&C's of this specific site & general legal precedent.

 

[sonic8]

Additionally, I am surprised that postings when added don't become the property/copyright of access-programmers.

Pretty sure they do, T&C's of this specific site & general legal precedent.

Copyright law differs quite a bit from country to country in that regard.
In general, it is very unlikely that just the T&Cs of a website are a legally sound basis for a transfer of a copyright.
The likely legal situation is that by posting on the site the author of the post grants an indefinite right of usage of the posted material to the party owning the site. If and when such a right of use can be revoked depends on the applicable law and the T&Cs and may result in complex legal proceedings.

All legal matters aside, in my opinion Jon did the right thing in deleting the posts as he was asked to.

 

[Isaac]

My Civil Procedure professor in law school was a young-ish lady from Harvard, Julie Cromer, whose specialty was IP law. Very easy on the eyes, she was, and she liked me especially because as it turns out, civ pro was my specialty - the one thing I was really good at, ranking at the top of my class at Thomas Jefferson. Leave it to me to be really good at what most people consider the absolute most boring and nearly incidental aspect of the law, but I found it fascinating. I think she would take issue with some of your generalizations, but ok

 

[Cotswold]

It's generally understood and accepted that anything that's published on the web is donated, becomes public domain and can be republished or used in any way without author's permission.

From my experience I do not believe that to be correct. However, I can appreciate that once posted it can be difficult to remove. Which is different.

Does a poster upload with the intention that it is copyright free? Is the post the poster's work or is it owned by someone else. Sections of code from various books, or other websites are often uploaded but a blind eye to that is invariably given in the general interest. Simply posting something online cannot suddenly make it copyright free. In fact a copyright owner could request, its removal and threaten damages.
However, when posting on AW, by custom and practice I think we do in the main understand that we offer it copyright free and without reward.

On AW the T&Cs state : You are granting us with a non-exclusive, permanent, irrevocable, unlimited license to use, publish, or re-publish your Content in connection with the Service. You retain copyright over the Content.

It is in this case that Pat's posts are her copyright but content could be retained and re-used by AW but they cannot be used by a third party for their re-issue, or profit without permission. We can all appreciate just how much time it would have taken to write 48,000 posts. From now onwards all that time has been thrown away. It is a pity that her many solutions are lost but there you go. These things happen.

 

[The_Doc_Man]

Simply posting something online cannot suddenly make it copyright free. In fact a copyright owner could request, its removal and threaten damages.

Sometimes I will get on YouTube and find a music reviewer. They are allowed to replay a particular music video but the Fair Use exceptions don't include playing the video in full and continuously. You have to either garble the video or break its continuity. I have seen videos where the reviewer had to re-post with altered replay of the reviewed material. For example, Pentatonix, one of the best a capella groups you will ever hear, DEFINITELY will chase reviewers who fail to edit what they show If you check that video later, the reviewer will admit in their content that their current video was re-posted after editing to comply with the Fair Use limits. In many cases, international reviewers of Pentatonix (a USA group) still run afoul of the copyright issues.