Are you an atheist? (3 Viewers)

[Frothingslosh]

Hey, I can make insane claims and pretend they're fact too!

All humans were born as radishes. If you don’t believe that, why should you feel insulted? That’s simply illogical.

You know, your entire argument above is destroyed by two sentences:

Assertions require proof. You have provided none.

*********************

I mean, seriously. Your "arguments" boil down to "Believe me because I have a book I was told once was written by God".

 

[Galaxiom]

There is only One TRUE God, and one Qur’an and therefore only One Islam. There are no branches of Islam as you put it? The different sects that exist are man-made.

Just more endless unsubstantiated assertions. Using upper case and bold does not make your assertion any stronger.

Every religion claims they are followers of the one TRUE god which, in almost every case just happens to be the god of the sect they were born into.

It is inane.

You claim that you have countered arguments provided by others but all you have ever done is repeat your assertions. Some time back you supported the four wives policy on the basis of there being more women in the world. When I provided evidence that the facts are quite the opposite you claimed that you were entitled to your opinion, which is obviously quite a ridiculous position.

You and other religious devotees simply ignore the facts because you are mesmerised by your faith and quite incapable of objective thought.

I am still waiting for you to explain which parts of Quran demonstrate scientific understand ahead of its time. From what I have read it doesn't even manage to get past a flat Earth, despite it already being known to be a sphere.

 

[Galaxiom]

... claiming that people disagree with you because they're deceitful or outright evil slams the door shut on ANY possibility of that person listening to your message.

Claims that any who oppose the doctrine are never far from the rhetoric of any fascist philosophy because the message cannot be supported with objective logic.

Then the devotees are implored to silence "the enemies of truth" which is why we see Islam driving so much violent conflict.

 

[Bladerunner]

@Frothingslosh

I like your posts but still they change nothing, You cannot counter faith by logic. "If one could argue with religious people there would be no religious people".

We can only hope for a live-and-let-live situation, although some religionists are getting pretty loud-mouthed and, sadly, beyond. If they want to live in peace they should leave us alone. If they want war, we should whack them once and for all.

you mean something like genocide?

 

[Galaxiom]

you mean something like genocide?

That would be pointless. Besides, killing is the force majeur of the Abrahamists and one of the reasons we live in such a violent world.

Ironically it would be far cheaper to be nice to the people the Arab World than to make war with them. Build some nice swimming pools to cool their heads maybe.

It is fair to question if it would do more to control terrorism than engaging in warfare.

 

[Bladerunner]

That would be pointless. Besides, killing is the force majeur of the Abrahamists and one of the reasons we live in such a violent world.

Ironically it would be far cheaper to be nice to the people the Arab World than to make war with them. Build some nice swimming pools to cool their heads maybe.

It is fair to question if it would do more to control terrorism than engaging in warfare.

I just don't understand the mentality of your statements. However, maybe we should hire you to go over there as an envoy to capture their hearts. Warning: be sure to take another head!

They want us dead and it is not because we have killed their soldiers or citizens. It is because we are Infidels. Yes, you Atheist are considered the same as the Christians. We are both people to be converted or killed. Our choice of course!

I wonder which you would choose?

 

[dan-cat]

Wrong again, as usual. The oldest copy of the Torah known to exist has been dated to between 1155 and 1225 AD. The books themselves are believed to have been written between 600BC and 400BC, but there are not even fragments that old to confirm this. It is only Jewish and Christian tradition that maintains that these books are older, not fact.

As there was no response to this, perhaps I can take it a different direction?

If one believes, rightly or wrongly, of an out of place intelligence in our line of history, why the jump to divinity? The concept of a ruling deity is actually quite imaginative why the lack of alternative suppositions? eg. Alien interference?

 

[Bladerunner]

As there was no response to this, perhaps I can take it a different direction?
If one believes, rightly or wrongly, of an out of place intelligence in our line of history, why the jump to divinity? The concept of a ruling deity is actually quite imaginative why the lack of alternative suppositions? eg. Alien interference?

1. There is no use to respond to your post or mr. Frosh......es post. Why? Because it would not matter if I gave you 300 proofs as to 'why the Torah is 3300 years old' or about anything other topic in the Christian Bible, you and he would give 301 why these proofs are false. You don't want proof, you want to continue living your lifestyle the way you see fit without any guilty conscience whatsoever. When the day comes that he makes a believer out of you, it will be too late to walk by his side. You will already made you final decision.

Unlike Aziz, nobody who is a Christian is going to come and take your life because you do not believe.No one is going to force you to submit. If you do not believe, then all we can do is to tell you about Him and let you make the decision. If you do not want to live for a Deity that requires nothing more of you other than you accept him as your savior, then again that is your decision. No one except the Muslims will disavow you over something that is so personal as that.
Then why compare Me to Aziz? does it make you feel better,,,,,, bigger,,,,,, happier,,,,more in control,,,,,,,etc... etc. .. Hope so, because I am still here!

2. Someone or something had to create the aliens as well! " He created the heavens and the Earth.and all things there within."

 

[Frothingslosh]

1. There is no use to respond to your post or mr. Frosh......es post. Why? Because it would not matter if I gave you 300 proofs as to 'why the Torah is 3300 years old' or about anything other topic in the Christian Bible, you and he would give 301 why these proofs are false.

This implies you've given a single bit of proof, which you manifestly have not. "My magic book is true because it says it's true" isn't proof.

You don't want proof, you want to continue living your lifestyle the way you see fit without any guilty conscience whatsoever.

No, most of us would accept actual proof. There just isn't any - that's why YOUR beliefs are called 'faith'.

When the day comes that he makes a believer out of you, it will be too late to walk by his side. You will already made you final decision.

Ahh, right, the old 'you'll burn in hell for being rational' argument. That always wins the debate.

Unlike Aziz, nobody who is a Christian is going to come and take your life because you do not believe.No one is going to force you to submit.

Are you frakking kidding me?!? What are you smoking?

Here we have the Christian Central African Republic hunting down and massacring non-Christians
The National Liberation Front of Tripura is a terrorist group murdering every Hindu they can catch.
The National Socialist Council of Nagaland is a Christian terrorist group that's not shy about murdering unbelievers, among other acts.
Lebanese Christians perpetrated the Karantina and Tel al-Zaatar massacres during the Lebanese civil war.
Anders Breivik's massacre in 2011, according to his own manifesto, was due to his belief that Muslims were undermining traditional Christian values.
We have KKK killings of Jews throughout their history (way too many links to list).
We have Christian terrorists bombing abortion clinics and murdering the doctors.

So yeah, if you truly believe Christians don't kill people for believing differently, then you are out of your bleeding mind.

If you do not believe, then all we can do is to tell you about Him and let you make the decision.

And harrass. And force your beliefs upon. And force your prayers on non-believers. And force your iconography on non-believers.

If you do not want to live for a Deity that requires nothing more of you other than you accept him as your savior, then again that is your decision.

Show actual proof and you'd have tons and tons of converts.

No one except the Muslims will disavow you over something that is so personal as that.
Then why compare Me to Aziz? does it make you feel better,,,,,, bigger,,,,,, happier,,,,more in control,,,,,,,etc... etc. .. Hope so, because I am still here!

And now you're capitalizing 'me'....

2. Someone or something had to create the aliens as well! " He created the heavens and the Earth.and all things there within."

Again, still awaiting proof.

 

[dan-cat]

1. There is no use to respond to your post or mr. Frosh......es post.

Both your and Froth's dedication to Biblical history far outpasses mine. I was genuinely looking forward to your response to:

The books themselves are believed to have been written between 600BC and 400BC, but there are not even fragments that old to confirm this.

You don't want proof, you want to continue living your lifestyle the way you see fit without any guilty conscience whatsoever.

How do I put this gently? You live under the impression that you are not responsible for statements like this. That God sets the rules and by complying to the Absolute law, as you see it, you are free to condemn those who do not, unburdened by any consequence. Aziz does the same thing here:

It is not me who is saying that you will be ‘tortured’, I’m simply quoting what God is saying.

But there is a consequence:

Do you not see how much you have given up by doing this? All of the millions of individuals, all of their personalities, hopes and dreams have been painted over by your decision to throw away any personal culpability for the law that you have chosen to submit to. It is a fascinating ability of the human mind to cover such a vast variety with a single color.

I understand the role of faith. That we all need our methods to sedate our awareness of the infinite. But when one of those methods actually cuts me off from the race that I belong, coaxes me to the conclusion that all others are insufficient, then I apply the freedom of thought, that your creed and many others uses to suppress, to reject it.

When the day comes that he makes a believer out of you, it will be too late to walk by his side. You will already made you final decision.

If you take one thing away from my response, let it be that you begin to take some responsibility for the words you speak. Don't simply pass them off as a replication of a law passed on to you by a higher authority. Understand the consequences of them, understand that there are consequences for them, here and now, not at some point in the afterlife. In summary, your faith requires your volition, not the other way around.

Unlike Aziz, nobody who is a Christian is going to come and take your life because you do not believe.

Poor old Aziz, he's getting battered from all sides.

 

[Bladerunner]

"dan-cat;1385815]Both your and Froth's dedication to Biblical history far outpasses mine. I was genuinely looking forward to your response to:"

Quote:
"The books themselves are believed to have been written between 600BC and 400BC, but there are not even fragments that old to confirm this."

Are you talking about the bible. Moses wrote the first five (Torah) books (God was the author) and he lived around 1552 BC. How do we know? There are Egyptian writings that depict the epic Exodus of the Jewish (Hebrew) people from Egypt itself. These writings also indicate that Moses was the one who lead them out of bondage. The time of these writings by our "Scientist" findings is around 1440BC. The Bible tells us that Moses was 80 years old when he lead the Exodus from Egypt. This makes him being born around 1520BC. Now God made the Hebrews wonder for forty years because of their discretions during the time that God was giving Moses the "'Ten Commandments' on Mt. Sinai. Thus the Ten Commandments were written by the finger of God around 1440BC. Since God did not permit Moses to enter the promised land we can assume that he died around 1400 BC. Somewhere in this time period (it is argued as to when he actually wrote the books.) but to count time from his last years, 1440Bc to 1400 BC makes the Torah (first five books of the Bible) around 3300 to 3400 years old. Yes, there is argument about the date since some say the scrolls were written around 600 BC during the Babylonian civilization. However, two scrolls are available that place them being written around them being written around 1400 BC. Yes, these were Carbon 14 dated two separate times.

http://news.yahoo.com/old-torah-scroll-found-italy-university-library-152438195.html

Hope this helps.

I am going to respond to the previous post of Dan-cat and Mr. Frosh..... but am going to do it in pieces so there is clarity and not just a twisting of words as Mr. Frosh so likes to do.

 

[Frothingslosh]

"dan-cat;1385815]Both your and Froth's dedication to Biblical history far outpasses mine. I was genuinely looking forward to your response to:"

Quote:
"The books themselves are believed to have been written between 600BC and 400BC, but there are not even fragments that old to confirm this."

Are you talking about the bible. Moses wrote the first five (Torah) books (God was the author) and he lived around 1552 BC. How do we know? There are Egyptian writings that depict the epic Exodus of the Jewish (Hebrew) people from Egypt itself. These writings also indicate that Moses was the one who lead them out of bondage. The time of these writings by our "Scientist" findings is around 1440BC. The Bible tells us that Moses was 80 years old when he lead the Exodus from Egypt. This makes him being born around 1520BC. Now God made the Hebrews wonder for forty years because of their discretions during the time that God was giving Moses the "'Ten Commandments' on Mt. Sinai. Thus the Ten Commandments were written by the finger of God around 1440BC. Since God did not permit Moses to enter the promised land we can assume that he died around 1400 BC. Somewhere in this time period (it is argued as to when he actually wrote the books.) but to count time from his last years, 1440Bc to 1400 BC makes the Torah (first five books of the Bible) around 3300 to 3400 years old. Yes, there is argument about the date since some say the scrolls were written around 600 BC during the Babylonian civilization. However, two scrolls are available that place them being written around them being written around 1400 BC. Yes, these were Carbon 14 dated two separate times.

http://news.yahoo.com/old-torah-scroll-found-italy-university-library-152438195.html

Hope this helps.

So to sum it up, the first part can be condensed down to "God wrote the Torah and gave it to Moses, and we know that because the Bible says so". Nope, no proof. No document citing only itself with no other evidence can be treated as proof, as that is a rudimentary logical fallacy called 'Circular Reasoning'. Logic 101, man.

As to the Exodus, please provide your proof. Everything I can find says otherwise - expert after expert says that there is not a SINGLE mention of it in Egyptian writing, and there is zero archaeological evidence whatsoever that it happened. Hell, the cities listed in Exodus didn't even exist at the same time as each other.

In other words, what you're doing is normally called 'making crap up', aka 'lying'.

Hell, the link you posted as 'proof' of the Torah's age doesn't even say what you're pretending it does.

The first sentence:

An Italian expert in Hebrew manuscripts said Wednesday he has discovered the oldest known complete Torah scroll, a sheepskin document dating from 1155-1225.

In the very next paragraph:

The find isn't the oldest Torah text in the world: the Leningrad and the Aleppo bibles — both of them Hebrew codexes, or books — pre-date the <above> scroll by more than 200 years.

Even farther down:

There are far older scraps of Torah scrolls that can be dated back to the 8th century, but Phann said it was rare to find a complete manuscript.

So yeah, you deliberately misrepresented a point so as to try to convince us it says something other than it says it does which is, once again, 'lying'.

As to the rest of your post:

I am going to respond to the previous post of Dan-cat and Mr. Frosh..... but am going to do it in pieces so there is clarity and not just a twisting of words as Mr. Frosh so likes to do.

The only one twisting words is you. I am quoting you and responding directly and unequivocally. You, on the other hand, are making crap up, misrepresenting statements, using grade-school logic, and straight-up lying when you cannot defend your 'points'.

 

[dan-cat]

However, two scrolls are available that place them being written around them being written around 1400 BC. Yes, these were Carbon 14 dated two separate times.

http://news.yahoo.com/old-torah-scroll-found-italy-university-library-152438195.html

Hope this helps.

As Froth says, if you're wishing to build any sense of credibility, the links you post have to have something to do with your claims. That link talks about materials dated to Medieval times.

 

[spikepl]

@#4248

You want alternatives? This one http://www.venganza.org/ is popular and as logically consistent as Russell's Teapot. Actually, also check out the latter http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russell's_teapot

 

[Bladerunner]

So to sum it up, the first part can be condensed down to "God wrote the Torah and gave it to Moses, and we know that because the Bible says so". Nope, no proof. No document citing only itself with no other evidence can be treated as proof, as that is a rudimentary logical fallacy called 'Circular Reasoning'. Logic 101, man.

Pity You

As to the Exodus, please provide your proof. Everything I can find says otherwise - expert after expert says that there is not a SINGLE mention of it in Egyptian writing, and there is zero archaeological evidence whatsoever that it happened. Hell, the cities listed in Exodus didn't even exist at the same time as each other.

How many you want? http://www.biblicalchronologist.org/answers/exodus_egypt.php

In other words, what you're doing is normally called 'making crap up', aka 'lying'.

And you are doing as I stated in one of my previous post,,, Keep it up, Your integrity is slipping away.

Hell, the link you posted as 'proof' of the Torah's age doesn't even say what you're pretending it does.

The first sentence:


In the very next paragraph:


Even farther down:


So yeah, you deliberately misrepresented a point so as to try to convince us it says something other than it says it does which is, once again, 'lying'.

Yes, it is what I said but I also gave you the article knowing full well there is a Torah dated some 200 years earlier which actually makes it about the 3300 years old we spoke of earlier. You just want to bash someone and that is fine, I am still here.

As to the rest of your post:
The only one twisting words is you. I am quoting you and responding directly and unequivocally. You, on the other hand, are making crap up, misrepresenting statements, using grade-school logic, and straight-up lying when you cannot defend your 'points'.

These points are your BS not mine. Sorry buddy, better go back to night school.

 

[Bladerunner]

As Froth says, if you're wishing to build any sense of credibility, the links you post have to have something to do with your claims. That link talks about materials dated to Medieval times.

There are several writings of Moses, the exodus, etc.... I will admit they are very few and far between but they do exist. Here are a few other sites that may help. Of course Frosh is going to discount everything anyway. But you asked.
http://worldview3.50webs.com/exodus.html

http://www.wyattnewsletters.com/exodus/ex12.htm

http://www.amazon.com/Moses-The-Hieroglyphs-Grant-Berkley/dp/1412056004

http://www.jewishjournal.com/passover/article/passover_proof_lies_in_egyptian_hieroglyphs_20100324/

http://www.prophecysociety.org/wordpress/?p=216

http://hudlinentertainment.com/smf/index.php?topic=5832.0

again hope this helps.

 

[aziz rasul]

Just more endless unsubstantiated assertions. Using upper case and bold does not make your assertion any stronger.

I have given plenty of evidence, if you refuse to see it, it’s not my fault. The replies I give are not necessarily for those who refuse to accept but for those who may in the future see it. So using UPPER CASE and bold may help. On the Day of Judgement, those who were shown the TRUTH can’t say that they didn’t know or were unaware.

Every religion claims they are followers of the one TRUE god which, in almost every case just happens to be the god of the sect they were born into.

Not true for everyone as some do reject the faith that they were born into and become MUSLIMS.

You claim that you have countered arguments provided by others but all you have ever done is repeat your assertions. Some time back you supported the four wives policy on the basis of there being more women in the world. When I provided evidence that the facts are quite the opposite you claimed that you were entitled to your opinion, which is obviously quite a ridiculous position.

There are many areas in the world where there are more women to men, this can often happen in different times e.g. during the times of war. The ruling regarding one man marrying up to 4 women applies in those cases. Another reason for this policy is to prevent promiscuity where women who are not attracted for marriage based on varying factors e.g. status or wealth of the women. Females who were orphaned 1400 years ago came under this. So rather than men having countless secret affairs and causing a breakup of morals and hence the society we live in it’s better to have marriages which are open and transparent. Apparently there are about 2000 such marriages in the UK and it’s growing as it was only about 400 in the latter part of the last century. You have a blinkered view of what I say and refuse as always to look at the bigger picture. You’re hate for ISLAM exhumes you to such an extent that you can never be an honest broker. As God says in the Qur’an,

083.010 Woe unto the repudiators on that day!
083.011 Those who deny the Day of Judgment
083.012 Which none denieth save each criminal transgressor,
083.013 Who, when thou readest unto him Our revelations, saith: (Mere) fables of the men of old.
083.014 Nay, but that which they have earned is rust upon their hearts.
083.015 Nay, but surely on that day they will be covered from (the mercy of) their Lord.
083.016 Then lo! they verily will burn in hell,
083.017 And it will be said (unto them): This is that which ye used to deny.

You and other religious devotees simply ignore the facts because you are mesmerised by your faith and quite incapable of objective thought.

You and other non-believers simply ignore the facts because you are mesmerised by your denial of the TRUTH and quite incapable of objective thought.

I am still waiting for you to explain which parts of Quran demonstrate scientific understand ahead of its time. From what I have read it doesn't even manage to get past a flat Earth, despite it already being known to be a sphere.

For someone who denies the TRUTH, I have given many answers but you keep ignoring them. I guess when we all die one day we will learn the TRUTH and for some it will be tooooo late.

003.184 And if they deny thee, even so did they deny messengers who were before thee, who came with miracles and with the Psalms and with the Scripture giving light.
003.185 Every soul will taste of death. And ye will be paid on the Day of Resurrection only that which ye have fairly earned. Whoso is removed from the Fire and is made to enter paradise, he indeed is triumphant. The life of this world is but comfort of illusion.
So let’s wait and see.

Hey, I can make groundless claims and pretend they're fact too!

You seem to be a master at that.

 

[aziz rasul]

Then the devotees are implored to silence "the enemies of truth" which is why we see Islam driving so much violent conflict.

The so called civilised west has caused more death and destruction than any other group since WW II. So get off your moral high ground. BTW I do not blame Christianity for this.

 

[aziz rasul]

I just don't understand the mentality of your statements. However, maybe we should hire you to go over there as an envoy to capture their hearts. Warning: be sure to take another head!

They want us dead and it is not because we have killed their soldiers or citizens. It is because we are Infidels. Yes, you Atheist are considered the same as the Christians.

Muslims are not interested in their hearts being captured as you put it. If God is pleased with us that’s what counts. Muslims in way shape or form are interested what the west think of us. We just want to be left alone to practise our faith without outside interference. Why do you people not get that?

002.190 Fight in the way of Allah against those who fight against you, but begin not hostilities. Lo! Allah loveth not aggressors.
002.191 And slay them wherever ye find them, and drive them out of the places whence they drove you out, for persecution is worse than slaughter. And fight not with them at the Inviolable Place of Worship until they first attack you there, but if they attack you (there) then slay them. Such is the reward of disbelievers.
002.192 But if they desist, then lo! Allah is Forgiving, Merciful.
002.193 And fight them until persecution is no more, and religion is for Allah. But if they desist, then let there be no hostility except against wrong-doers.
002.194 The forbidden month for the forbidden month, and forbidden things in retaliation. And one who attacketh you, attack him in like manner as he attacked you. Observe your duty to Allah, and know that Allah is with those who ward off (evil).

060.005 Our Lord! Make us not a prey for those who disbelieve, and forgive us, our Lord! Lo! Thou, only Thou, are the Mighty, the Wise.
060.006 Verily ye have in them a goodly pattern for everyone who looketh to Allah and the Last Day. And whosoever may turn away, lo! still Allah, He is the Absolute, the Owner of Praise.
060.007 It may be that Allah will ordain love between you and those of them with whom ye are at enmity. Allah is Mighty, and Allah is Forgiving, Merciful.
060.008 Allah forbiddeth you not those who warred not against you on account of religion and drove you not out from your homes, that ye should show them kindness and deal justly with them. Lo! Allah loveth the just dealers.
060.009 Allah forbiddeth you only those who warred against you on account of religion and have driven you out from your homes and helped to drive you out, that ye make friends of them. Whosoever maketh friends of them - (All) such are wrong-doers.

The word infidel was a word coined by Christians to refer to non-Christians. The Qur’an refers to people who are not Muslims as disbelievers. You shouldn’t trust everything you hear from the western media or politicians.

We are both people to be converted or killed. Our choice of course!

002.256 There is no compulsion in religion. The right direction is henceforth distinct from error. And he who rejecteth false deities and believeth in Allah hath grasped a firm handhold which will never break. Allah is Hearer, Knower.

 

[aziz rasul]

Unlike Aziz, nobody who is a Christian is going to come and take your life because you do not believe.No one is going to force you to submit.

Can you point to the post where I said I would take someone’s life because they do not believe or do not submit? That is a manifest lie and I will be writing to the administrators regarding this severe and unsubstanted accusation.

Then why compare Me to Aziz?

I would not want to be compared with you for many reasons, 2 of which are: -

1. You are a liar
2. Your faith is fundamentally wrong as Jesus (peace be upon him) never claimed to be the begotten son of God, which is one of the pillars of Christianity.

You and me are different as chalk and cheese.

004.171 O People of the Scripture! Do not exaggerate in your religion nor utter aught concerning Allah save the truth. The Messiah, Jesus son of Mary, was only a messenger of Allah, and His word which He conveyed unto Mary, and a spirit from Him. So believe in Allah and His messengers, and say not "Three" - Cease! (it is) better for you! - Allah is only One God. Far is it removed from His Transcendent Majesty that He should have a son. His is all that is in the heavens and all that is in the earth. And Allah is sufficient as Defender.

004.172 The Messiah will never scorn to be a slave unto Allah, nor will the favoured angels. Whoso scorneth His service and is proud, all such will He assemble unto Him;