Are you an atheist?

[Bladerunner]

First off, learn to use quotes. It's not that difficult.

Second, let's start with this:


Lets start off with what you are, A far left liberal who is a naturalist, and believes that God does not exist.

Speaking of night school, I suggest you sign up, because in the real world, a text written circa 1155-1225 is not 3300 years old, it is between 789 and 859 years old. For proof, let's pull up some grade school math:

It seems that I remember to get the number of years you have to subtract a negative number which result in the addition of all numbers. Lets see if this is right.!

2014 - 2010 = 4 years
2014 - 0 = 2014
2014 - (-1225) = 3239

OOPs Guess we never went to school. no wonder you are a liberal! Better get you a calculator, your brain seems to be fried.....Wonder Why?


All the rest of your gibberish is inconsequential !

From this post forward I will refuse to answer any of your liberal God Hating postings.

 

[Bladerunner]

There are many areas in the world where there are more women to men, this can often happen in different times e.g. during the times of war. The ruling regarding one man marrying up to 4 women applies in those cases. Another reason for this policy is to prevent promiscuity where women who are not attracted for marriage based on varying factors e.g. status or wealth of the women. Females who were orphaned 1400 years ago came under this. So rather than men having countless secret affairs and causing a breakup of morals and hence the society we live in it’s better to have marriages which are open and transparent. Apparently there are about 2000 such marriages in the UK and it’s growing as it was only about 400 in the latter part of the last century. You have a blinkered view of what I say and refuse as always to look at the bigger picture. You’re hate for ISLAM exhumes you to such an extent that you can never be an honest broker. As God says in the Qur’an,

Was this put forth by your God or By your so called Prophet

003.184 And if they deny thee, even so did they deny messengers who were before thee, who came with miracles and with the Psalms and with the Scripture giving light.
003.185 Every soul will taste of death. And ye will be paid on the Day of Resurrection only that which ye have fairly earned. Whoso is removed from the Fire and is made to enter paradise, he indeed is triumphant. The life of this world is but comfort of illusion.

Let's see, you get 72 virgins if you are killed in battle killing infidels!

 

[Bladerunner]

002.190 Fight in the way of Allah against those who fight against you, but begin not hostilities. Lo! Allah loveth not aggressors.
002.191 And slay them wherever ye find them, and drive them out of the places whence they drove you out, for persecution is worse than slaughter. And fight not with them at the Inviolable Place of Worship until they first attack you there, but if they attack you (there) then slay them. Such is the reward of disbelievers.

What did the Christians and other groups do to your Islamic terrorist to deserve beheading. You say Islam is a peaceful religion but it is not. First of all Islam was born around 600 AD not any earlier as you suggest. You do not recognise Jesus Christ as I do not recognize your Prophet, whats his name?

By the way, Jesus did proclaim that he was the son of God.






002.192 But if they desist, then lo! Allah is Forgiving, Merciful.
002.193 And fight them until persecution is no more, and religion is for Allah. But if they desist, then let there be no hostility except against wrong-doers.
002.194 The forbidden month for the forbidden month, and forbidden things in retaliation. And one who attacketh you, attack him in like manner as he attacked you. Observe your duty to Allah, and know that Allah is with those who ward off (evil).

060.005 Our Lord! Make us not a prey for those who disbelieve, and forgive us, our Lord! Lo! Thou, only Thou, are the Mighty, the Wise.
060.006 Verily ye have in them a goodly pattern for everyone who looketh to Allah and the Last Day. And whosoever may turn away, lo! still Allah, He is the Absolute, the Owner of Praise.
060.007 It may be that Allah will ordain love between you and those of them with whom ye are at enmity. Allah is Mighty, and Allah is Forgiving, Merciful.
060.008 Allah forbiddeth you not those who warred not against you on account of religion and drove you not out from your homes, that ye should show them kindness and deal justly with them. Lo! Allah loveth the just dealers.
060.009 Allah forbiddeth you only those who warred against you on account of religion and have driven you out from your homes and helped to drive you out, that ye make friends of them. Whosoever maketh friends of them - (All) such are wrong-doers.

The word infidel was a word coined by Christians to refer to non-Christians. The Qur’an refers to people who are not Muslims as disbelievers. You shouldn’t trust everything you hear from the western media or politicians.



002.256 There is no compulsion in religion. The right direction is henceforth distinct from error. And he who rejecteth false deities and believeth in Allah hath grasped a firm handhold which will never break. Allah is Hearer, Knower.[/QUOTE]

 

[Bladerunner]

The word infidel was a word coined by Christians to refer to non-Christians. The Qur’an refers to people who are not Muslims as disbelievers. You shouldn’t trust everything you hear from the western media or politicians.

Yes the Christians used it but so does Islam. Since the term is English, It represent its equivalent in Arabic.

"Infidel is an English language word commonly used to translate the equivalent Arabic language word for non-Muslims; kafir (sometimes "kaafir", "kufr" or "kuffar"), and the equivalent Turkish loanword gâvur, literally the one who "covers" and "conceals", is usually translated as "infidel" and "disbeliever".[17][18][19] Other terms sometimes synonymously used in Islamic literature for infidel are shirk, mushirk, and mushrikun.[20][21]"

Its not nice to be a deceiver.


Quran (9:5) - "So when the sacred months have passed away, then slay the idolaters wherever you find them, and take them captive and besiege them and lie in wait for them in every ambush, then if they repent and keep up prayer and pay the poor-rate, leave their way free to them."



I believe you said Muslims only defended themselves,,,,,,,?

 

[Frothingslosh]

First off, learn to use quotes. It's not that difficult.

Second, let's start with this:

Lets start off with what you are, A far left liberal who is a naturalist, and believes that God does not exist.




It seems that I remember to get the number of years you have to subtract a negative number which result in the addition of all numbers. Lets see if this is right.!

2014 - 2010 = 4 years
2014 - 0 = 2014
2014 - (-1225) = 3239

OOPs Guess we never went to school. no wonder you are a liberal! Better get you a calculator, your brain seems to be fried.....Wonder Why?


All the rest of your gibberish is inconsequential !

From this post forward I will refuse to answer any of your liberal God Hating postings.

Good thing I haven't posted a single God Hating posting!

And you still can't figure out quotes, I see. I pity whoever you write code for.

Anyway, about your kindergarten math:

Reread your own bloody article:

ROME (AP) — An Italian expert in Hebrew manuscripts said Wednesday he has discovered the oldest known complete Torah scroll, a sheepskin document dating from 1155-1225. It was right under his nose, in the University of Bologna library, where it had been mistakenly catalogued a century ago as dating from the 17th century.

dating from 1155-1225

1155-1225

It doesn't say 1155-1225 BC, it says 1155-1225. That's AD/CE. As in, less than a thousand years ago.

Don't slam me just because you can't comprehend the very article you're quoting.

It amuses me to no end, though, that you equate 'rationalism and logic' with God-hating. That says little about me and everything everyone needs to know about you.

As to the rest of your drivel, I'm actually far from far left, nor am I an atheist, which you would know if you could, you know, READ. Being agnostic does not make me far left, nor does a requirement that things make sense, nor does a lack of interest in accepting BECAUSE I SAY SO as proof.

But that's okay, because I understand that in your world view, anyone who doesn't bow down to your incoherent ramblings and utter lack of logic is a dire threat to your very existence. God forbid you actually have to THINK!

Also, naturalist? You say that like it's a bad thing. You do realize, don't you, that every single thing around you, the very computers you work with, are the creations of naturalists? The Bible didn't create modern medicine, modern technology, or even Microsoft Access, no matter how much you apparently wish it did.

 

[Bladerunner]

1. You are a liar
2. Your faith is fundamentally wrong as Jesus (peace be upon him) never claimed to be the begotten son of God, which is one of the pillars of Christianity.

Jesus calls God ‘the Father’ or ‘my Father’ 107 times and refers to himself as ‘the Son of God’ or simply ‘the son’ in context with ‘the Father’ around 30 times. John 5:18 shows that his contemporaries understood him to be ‘making himself equal with God’.

This relationship is further emphasized in the latter half of the Gospel when Jesus claims to be one with the Father (Rom 10:30, 38; 14:10-11; 17:11), existing before creation (Rom 17:5), and owning all that God owns (Rom 16:15; 17:10).

The Father loves the Son (John 15:9, 17:23-29) and the Son loves the Father (John 14:31). Out of that love, Jesus is obedient to his Father (John 14:31), and he loves the Son because of that obedience (John 10:17)

And you call me a liar but want to turn me in to the administrators. It is your muslim way to get things done. I forgive you. You cannot help it, You grew up that way.

 

[Frothingslosh]

As Brave Sir Bladerunner is apparently so mortified about his complete lack of competence with first grade math that he has decided to place me on ignore rather than face the truth, I guess I shall have to leave it to the rest of you to point out to him that he's out of his bloody mind. (Or, more likely, that he's assuming a BC on dates that aren't BC in the article he quoted.)

I guess I'll just watch him and Aziz snipe at each other for the next few weeks.

 

[scott-atkinson]

You guys have got far too much time on your hands...

 

[aziz rasul]

Seriously, the best you can do when pressed for actual, real, fact is make a snide comment?

Pathetic.

If you were reading my posts you will see plenty of real facts which you have chosen to ignore.

Pathetic.

Bladerunner, I have reported your lie and waiting for them to come back to me.

Was this put forth by your God or By your so called Prophet

It is God who has allowed a Muslim to marry up to 4 women. Before the verse was revealed, there was no limit to how many wives you could have. For example David (peace be upon him) had approximately 13 wives.

Let's see, you get 72 virgins if you are killed in battle killing infidels!

Where is your reference? Anyone can quote what they want, I at least wherever possible quote verses from the Qur’an to support my arguments.

What did the Christians and other groups do to your Islamic terrorist to deserve beheading. You say Islam is a peaceful religion but it is not. First of all Islam was born around 600 AD not any earlier as you suggest. You do not recognise Jesus Christ as I do not recognize your Prophet, whats his name?

By the way, Jesus did proclaim that he was the son of God.

You are clearly someone who as a Christian, other Christians would avoid.

Anyone who calls himself a Muslim and carries out an action that is against the Qur’an and Sunnah is wrong in what they do. I condemn governments who bomb Muslims just as I condemn the beheadings of the journalists that recently have taken place by Muslims. I condemn any act of atrocity committed by whomever to whoever.

Please provide evidence from the Qur’an that Islam is not a peaceful religion.

Islam came into being during the time of Adam (peace be upon him). He worshipped the same God that all the other Prophets and Messengers worshipped, so you are factually incorrect.

I recognise Jesus (peace be upon him) in the way he would have wanted not as a begotten son of God, which BTW you have not provided any evidence for. For your information, the term son of God is allegorical way of saying someone who is close to God and giving His message, there is no biological relationship just as when the NT says that Jesus (peace be upon him) is referred to as the son of David, it’s not taken literally. The relationship is there through the family tree but most importantly through the same belief i.e. to surrender to the ONE TRUE God.

In the KJV of the NT in the Gospel of John, the word ‘begotten’ was deliberately added in to suggest a biological relationship. However the original documents do not have the word ‘begotten’ in them. If you don’t believe me check out the NRSV of the Bible which is based on the original known manuscripts. Interestingly the RSV which preceded the NRSV did have this word but they took it out after much deliberation by over 50 Christian theologians who decided that if the NRSV was to reflect the original then they had to take it out. The vast majority of Christians are unaware of this and unfortunately blindly follow something that was manufactured by man.

Yes the Christians used it but so does Islam. Since the term is English, It represent its equivalent in Arabic.

"Infidel is an English language word commonly used to translate the equivalent Arabic language word for non-Muslims; kafir (sometimes "kaafir", "kufr" or "kuffar"), and the equivalent Turkish loanword gâvur, literally the one who "covers" and "conceals", is usually translated as "infidel" and "disbeliever".[17][18][19] Other terms sometimes synonymously used in Islamic literature for infidel are shirk, mushirk, and mushrikun.[20][21]"

Its not nice to be a deceiver.

Thye Arabic word in the Qur’an is KAFIR (singular) or KUFAAR (plural). The word refers to people who know the TRUTH but conceal it. The word INFIDEL is used to denote a non Christian. Hence this word was in the past used by Christians and no one else. Only recently has the media tried it’s best thru it’s vilification of Islam to incorporate this word among Muslims, who in some case are ignorant of the facts begin using it not realising that the English word for KAFIR is a DISBELIEVER i.e. some who REJECTS the TRUE faith. In your post it says ‘usually’, which suggests it’s not by many others. Don’t substitute Christian grown words and place them into the Islamic arena. Its not nice to be a deceiver.

You quoted Qur’an 9:5 but you made no attempt in trying to understand the context of the verse. You are no better than those Muslims who do the same thing and use this verse to kill innocents.

Here are the verses in full:-

1. Freedom from (all) obligations (is declared) from Allah and His Messenger to those of the Mushrikun (polytheists, pagans, idolaters, disbelievers in the Oneness of Allah), with whom you made a treaty.

2. So travel freely (O Mushrikun - see V.2:105) for four months (as you will) throughout the land, but know that you cannot escape (from the Punishment of) Allah, and Allah will disgrace the disbelievers.

3. And a declaration from Allah and His Messenger to mankind on the greatest day (the 10th of Dhul-Hijjah - the 12th month of Islamic calendar) that Allah is free from (all) obligations to the Mushrikun (see V.2:105) and so is His Messenger. So if you (Mushrikun) repent, it is better for you, but if you turn away, then know that you cannot escape (from the Punishment of) Allah. And give tidings (O Muhammad) of a painful torment to those who disbelieve.

4. Except those of the Mushrikun with whom you have a treaty, and who have not subsequently failed you in aught, nor have supported anyone against you. So fulfill their treaty to them to the end of their term. Surely Allah loves Al- Mattaqun (the pious - see V.2:2).

5. Then when the Sacred Months (the Ist, 7th, 11th, and 12th months of the Islamic calendar) have passed, then kill the Mushrikun (see V.2:105) wherever you find them, and capture them and besiege them, and prepare for them each and every ambush. But if they repent and perform As-Salat (Iqamat-as-Salat), and give Zakat, then leave their way free. Verily, Allah is Oft-Forgiving, Most Merciful.

6. And if anyone of the Mushrikun (polytheists, idolaters, pagans, disbelievers in the Oneness of Allah) seeks your protection then grant him protection, so that he may hear the Word of Allah (the Qur'an), and then escort him to where he can be secure, that is because they are men who know not.

7. How can there be a covenant with Allah and with His Messenger for the Mushrikun (polytheists, idolaters, pagans, disbelievers in the Oneness of Allah) except those with whom you made a covenant near Al-Masjid-al-Haram (at Makkah)? So long, as they are true to you, stand you true to them. Verily, Allah loves Al-Muttaqun (the pious - see V.2:2).

8. How (can there be such a covenant with them) that when you are overpowered by them, they regard not the ties, either of kinship or of covenant with you? With (good words from) their mouths they please you, but their hearts are averse to you, and most of them are Fasiqun (rebellious, disobedient to Allah).

9. They have purchased with the Ayat (proofs, evidences, verses, lessons, signs, revelations, etc.) of Allah a little gain, and they hindered men from His Way; evil indeed is that which they used to do.

10. With regard to a believer, they respect not the ties, either of kinship or of covenant! It is they who are the transgressors.

11. But if they repent, perform As-Salat (Iqamat-as-Salat) and give Zakat, then they are your brethren in religion. (In this way) We explain the Ayat (proofs, evidences, verses, lessons, signs, revelations, etc.) in detail for a people who know.

12. But if they violate their oaths after their covenant, and attack your religion with disapproval and criticism then fight (you) the leaders of disbelief (chiefs of Quraish - pagans of Makkah) - for surely their oaths are nothing to them - so that they may stop (evil actions).

13. Will you not fight a people who have violated their oaths (pagans of Makkah) and intended to expel the Messenger, while they did attack you first? Do you fear them? Allah has more right that you should fear Him, if you are believers.

14. Fight against them so that Allah will punish them by your hands and disgrace them and give you victory over them and heal the breasts of a believing people,

15. And remove the anger of their (believers') hearts. Allah accepts the repentance of whom He wills. Allah is All-Knowing, All-Wise.

16. Do you think that you shall be left alone while Allah has not yet tested those among you who have striven hard and fought and have not taken Walijah [(Batanah - helpers, advisors and consultants from disbelievers, pagans, etc.) giving openly to them their secrets] besides Allah and His Messenger, and the believers. Allah is Well-Acquainted with what you do.

17. It is not for the Mushrikun (polytheists, idolaters, pagans, disbelievers in the Oneness of Allah), to maintain the Mosques of Allah (i.e. to pray and worship Allah therein, to look after their cleanliness and their building, etc.), while they witness against their ownselves of disbelief. The works of such are in vain and in Fire shall they abide.

18. The Mosques of Allah shall be maintained only by those who believe in Allah and the Last Day; perform As-Salat (Iqamat-as-Salat), and give Zakat and fear none but Allah. It is they who are expected to be on true guidance.

The background is that the polytheists broke a treaty with the Messenger (peace be upon him). They were given 4 months to make amends or war would be declared. Verse 9:5 was revealed during the battle that ultimately took place when the polytheists marched from Makkah to Madina. Hence this war was conducted in self defence as I originally said. If you had made even a little effort to establish the TRUTH, you would have seen that, as it is your words remain empty as always.

1If prophets or those who divine by dreams appear among you and promise you omens or portents,
2and the omens or the portents declared by them take place, and they say, ‘Let us follow other gods’ (whom you have not known) ‘and let us serve them’,
3you must not heed the words of those prophets or those who divine by dreams; for the Lord your God is testing you, to know whether you indeed love the Lord your God with all your heart and soul.
4The Lord your God you shall follow, him alone you shall fear, his commandments you shall keep, his voice you shall obey, him you shall serve, and to him you shall hold fast.
5But those prophets or those who divine by dreams shall be put to death for having spoken treason against the Lord your God—who brought you out of the land of Egypt and redeemed you from the house of slavery—to turn you from the way in which the Lord your God commanded you to walk. So you shall purge the evil from your midst.
6 If anyone secretly entices you—even if it is your brother, your father’s son or your mother’s son, or your own son or daughter, or the wife you embrace, or your most intimate friend—saying, ‘Let us go and worship other gods’, whom neither you nor your ancestors have known,
7any of the gods of the peoples that are around you, whether near you or far away from you, from one end of the earth to the other,
8you must not yield to or heed any such persons. Show them no pity or compassion and do not shield them.
9But you shall surely kill them; your own hand shall be first against them to execute them, and afterwards the hand of all the people.
10Stone them to death for trying to turn you away from the Lord your God, who brought you out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of slavery.
11Then all Israel shall hear and be afraid, and never again do any such wickedness.
12 If you hear it said about one of the towns that the Lord your God is giving you to live in,
13that scoundrels from among you have gone out and led the inhabitants of the town astray, saying, ‘Let us go and worship other gods’, whom you have not known,
14then you shall inquire and make a thorough investigation. If the charge is established that such an abhorrent thing has been done among you,
15you shall put the inhabitants of that town to the sword, utterly destroying it and everything in it—even putting its livestock to the sword.
16All of its spoil you shall gather into its public square; then burn the town and all its spoil with fire, as a whole burnt-offering to the Lord your God. It shall remain a perpetual ruin, never to be rebuilt.
17Do not let anything devoted to destruction stick to your hand, so that the Lord may turn from his fierce anger and show you compassion, and in his compassion multiply you, as he swore to your ancestors,
18if you obey the voice of the Lord your God by keeping all his commandments that I am commanding you today, doing what is right in the sight of the Lord your God.

Old Testament Deuteronomy

Jesus calls God ‘the Father’ or ‘my Father’ 107 times and refers to himself as ‘the Son of God’ or simply ‘the son’ in context with ‘the Father’ around 30 times. John 5:18 shows that his contemporaries understood him to be ‘making himself equal with God’.

This relationship is further emphasized in the latter half of the Gospel when Jesus claims to be one with the Father (Rom 10:30, 38; 14:10-11; 17:11), existing before creation (Rom 17:5), and owning all that God owns (Rom 16:15; 17:10).

The Father loves the Son (John 15:9, 17:23-29) and the Son loves the Father (John 14:31). Out of that love, Jesus is obedient to his Father (John 14:31), and he loves the Son because of that obedience (John 10:17)

Again you insist in taking things literally when metaphors are used. The words father and son are used in a metaphorical sense simply to denote that Jesus (peace be upon him) is obedient to God and giving His message. I can give you an example in the Qur’an, where when Maryam (peace be upon her) arrived showing the child she was accused in the following way,

19:27 Then she brought him to her people, carrying him. They said, "O Mary, you have certainly done a thing unprecedented.

19:28 O sister of Aaron, your father was not a man of evil, nor was your mother unchaste."

Maryam (peace be upon her) did not have a brother called Aaron. The Aaron referred to here is Prophet Aaron (peace be upon him) who was the older brother of Moses (peace be upon him). The people were saying that you come from such a noble line, why have you done such a thing.

And you call me a liar but want to turn me in to the administrators. It is your muslim way to get things done. I forgive you. You cannot help it, You grew up that way.

Clearly it’s ‘your’ Christian way to make false accusations. I won’t blame your upbringing as you did with me not knowing anything about me and suggest that this is a natural nasty trait that ‘you’ have. I have met many Christians over the years and they certainly behaved in a much better way than you do. They would be ashamed to be associated with you.

22:30 . . . So avoid the uncleanliness of idols and avoid lying speech.

 

[Frothingslosh]

Aziz, I hate to break it to you (actually, I don't), but unsupported quotes from your book aren't facts, no matter how much you desperately wish they were. Flooding the forum with them doesn't change that fact, nor does grotesquely twisting science and coincidence until they have no relationship with reality in order to 'prove' your point. Seriously, your entire posting history in this thread, other than when you spout your 'everyone is born Muslim' nonsense, is nothing more than you beating your chest screaming "ISLAM IS THE ONLY RELIGION BECAUSE I SAY SO".

The fact of the matter is that the Qu'ran is just as self-contradictory as the Bible and the Torah. Only in the mind of a fanatic such as yourself (and Bladerunner, and Dick7Access, for that matter, bless their hearts) is it required that your holy book be perfect in order for your beliefs to have meaning. Because seriously, that is the fear that drives all of you to reject all logic, all rationality, all intelligent discussion: the fear, deep down, that if any part of your holy books are incorrect, then your entire belief structure must be wrong as well.

Of course, that is no more rational than the nonsensical belief that all newborns - who are barely sentient, much less sapient - are born already knowing and following an abstract religion, and are then led carefully astray. People can and do accept that their holy books - whatever the religion - are not 100% pure truth, and remain faithful to their religion. People can and do question where the book and the real world diverge without becoming atheists. Hell, there are volumes and volumes of philosophy from every major religion on those very points.

Of course, as you're pretty obviously a Shi'i, I guess I'll have to simply point out that just as you cannot write anything in a closed book, neither can a closed mind receive any new knowledge. Perhaps someday you'll understand that.

 

[Frothingslosh]

You guys have got far too much time on your hands...

You have no idea....

Still, discussing things with rabid fundamentalists is always entertaining, and I often can pick up a few bits of new knowledge while doing the research necessary to refute their almost-always-insane claims. That alone makes it worth the effort!

 

[Rabbie]

Aziz, you say that Islam is a peaceful religion. Would you then agree that the beheading of the three hostages by representatives of ISIS is unislamic and would you condemn them.

Also do you agree or disagree with the execution in Iran of a man for heresy?

Personally I am sure you would not personally kill someone for being a non Muslim but would you condemn a muslim who did?

 

[spikepl]

Good point. A divine imprimatur on the divine mouthpieces would be good to witness too, but Mr. God still seems too reticent/busy/uncaring to either object to, or to vociferously approve the chosen ones.

But desiring proof is applying logic to something so deprived of any and all logic as faith, hence such efforts are doomed to failure from get go.

 

[Bladerunner]

You quoted Qur’an 9:5 but you made no attempt in trying to understand the context of the verse. You are no better than those Muslims who do the same thing and use this verse to kill innocents.

Here are the verses in full:-

5. Then when the Sacred Months (the Ist, 7th, 11th, and 12th months of the Islamic calendar) have passed, then kill the Mushrikun (see V.2:105) wherever you find them, and capture them and besiege them, and prepare for them each and every ambush. But if they repent and perform As-Salat (Iqamat-as-Salat), and give Zakat, then leave their way free. Verily, Allah is Oft-Forgiving, Most Merciful.

Don;t know where you are getting your quotes from but here is the real 9.5 verse along with its Arabic translation.


9.5. Then, when the (four) sacred months (of respite, during which fighting with those who associate partners with God and violate their treaties was prohibited to you,) are over, then (declare war on them and) kill them wherever you may come upon them, and seize them, and confine them, and lie in wait for them at every conceivable place. Yet if they repent and (mending their ways) establish the Prescribed Prayer, and pay the Prescribed Purifying Alms, let them go their way. Surely God is All-Forgiving, All-Compassionate.

فَإِذَا انسَلَخَ الأَشْهُرُ الْحُرُمُ فَاقْتُلُواْ الْمُشْرِكِينَ حَيْثُ وَجَدتُّمُوهُمْ وَخُذُوهُمْ وَاحْصُرُوهُمْ وَاقْعُدُواْ لَهُمْ كُلَّ مَرْصَدٍ فَإِن تَابُواْ وَأَقَامُواْ الصَّلاَةَ وَآتَوُاْ الزَّكَاةَ فَخَلُّواْ سَبِيلَهُمْ إِنَّ اللّهَ غَفُورٌ رَّحِيمٌ​

" According to this verse, the best way of staying safe from Muslim violence is to convert to Islam (prayer (salat) and the poor tax (zakat) are among the religion's Five Pillars). This popular claim that the Quran only inspires violence within the context of self-defense is seriously challenged by this passage as well, since the Muslims to whom it was written were obviously not under attack. Had they been, then there would have been no waiting period (earlier verses make it a duty for Muslims to fight in self-defense, even during the sacred months). The historical context is Mecca after the idolaters were subjugated by Muhammad and posed no threat. Once the Muslims had the power, they violently evicted those unbelievers who would not convert."

It seems there is a whole lot of kill-them verses in the Koran. Here are just a few: Now, I know there is more to the verse sometimes but it stills you to kill.Kill, KILL

Quran (8:12) - "I will cast terror into the hearts of those who disbelieve. Therefore strike off their heads and strike off every fingertip of them" No reasonable person would interpret this to mean a spiritual struggle.

Quran (8:15) - "O ye who believe! When ye meet those who disbelieve in battle, turn not your backs to them. (16)Whoso on that day turneth his back to them, unless maneuvering for battle or intent to join a company, he truly hath incurred wrath from Allah, and his habitation will be hell, a hapless journey's end."

Quran (8:39) - "And fight with them until there is no more fitna (disorder, unbelief) and religion should be only for Allah"

If you want more goto this site. There are a lot.

http://www.thereligionofpeace.com/quran/023-violence.htm

 

[Bladerunner]

I just saw a leader of an extremist group on the BBC News. He said words to the effect "democracy belongs to God".

That may well be. My question would be who relays the message from God to the people?

That is the problem with a religious driven government, who elects intermediaries? (The people who relay the word of God to the congregation)

Rem one thing U.Gizmo: Islam is a government, religion and social justice all rolled into one. Ever hear of Shira Law, Iran is the type government Islam wants to install world wide and well then you have the religion part that runs it all.

I think you have some Shira Law enforcers in Europe (http://www.billionbibles.org/sharia/sharia-europe.html). Your next! Wake up Please

 

[Bladerunner]

Islam came into being during the time of Adam (peace be upon him). He worshiped the same God that all the other Prophets and Messengers worshiped, so you are factually incorrect.

wrong.......... Islam was written around 600 AD. That is 600 years after the birth of Jesus Christ. Adam & Eve was created long before then. Of course your don't count Eve at all. She was a woman.

 

[Bladerunner]

Hi Aziz:

Rem this:
Quote: Bladerunner

Let's see, you get 72 virgins if you are killed in battle killing infidels!
You said: Where is your reference? Anyone can quote what they want, I at least wherever possible quote verses from the Qur’an to support my arguments.

As I have stated before there are three major books of Islam which include the previous life of the Prophet.Here is" a collection of traditions containing sayings of the prophet Muhammad that, with accounts of his daily practice (the Sunna), constitute the major source of guidance for Muslims apart from the Koran."

"In the Sunan Ibn Majah, one of the six major Hadith collections, it states in a hasan (good) narration that every male admitted into Paradise will be given eternal erections and wed to 72 wives, all with libidinous sex organs. Similarly in another hadith with multiple narrators that has been graded hasan (good), it states that the martyr (shahid) will be married to seventy-two of al-hoor al-‘iyn (beautiful wifes).

 

[Brianwarnock]

Blade could you please learn to use quotes so that we know who you are quoting , which are quotes and which are your own words, or is it all a ploy to stifle debate.

brian

 

[Brianwarnock]

There is only One TRUE God, and one Qur’an and therefore only One Islam. There are no branches of Islam as you put it? The different sects that exist are man-made.

Just like all of religion.

Brian

 

[nanscombe]

For thousands of years most, if not all, "men" (everyone after Adam & Eve) have been man-made, without the intervention of a god, as well.