Are you an atheist? (2 Viewers)

Are you an atheist?


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spikepl

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Good point. A divine imprimatur on the divine mouthpieces would be good to witness too, but Mr. God still seems too reticent/busy/uncaring to either object to, or to vociferously approve the chosen ones.

But desiring proof is applying logic to something so deprived of any and all logic as faith, hence such efforts are doomed to failure from get go.
 

Bladerunner

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You quoted Qur’an 9:5 but you made no attempt in trying to understand the context of the verse. You are no better than those Muslims who do the same thing and use this verse to kill innocents.

Here are the verses in full:-

5. Then when the Sacred Months (the Ist, 7th, 11th, and 12th months of the Islamic calendar) have passed, then kill the Mushrikun (see V.2:105) wherever you find them, and capture them and besiege them, and prepare for them each and every ambush. But if they repent and perform As-Salat (Iqamat-as-Salat), and give Zakat, then leave their way free. Verily, Allah is Oft-Forgiving, Most Merciful.


Don;t know where you are getting your quotes from but here is the real 9.5 verse along with its Arabic translation.


9.5. Then, when the (four) sacred months (of respite, during which fighting with those who associate partners with God and violate their treaties was prohibited to you,) are over, then (declare war on them and) kill them wherever you may come upon them, and seize them, and confine them, and lie in wait for them at every conceivable place. Yet if they repent and (mending their ways) establish the Prescribed Prayer, and pay the Prescribed Purifying Alms, let them go their way. Surely God is All-Forgiving, All-Compassionate.
فَإِذَا انسَلَخَ الأَشْهُرُ الْحُرُمُ فَاقْتُلُواْ الْمُشْرِكِينَ حَيْثُ وَجَدتُّمُوهُمْ وَخُذُوهُمْ وَاحْصُرُوهُمْ وَاقْعُدُواْ لَهُمْ كُلَّ مَرْصَدٍ فَإِن تَابُواْ وَأَقَامُواْ الصَّلاَةَ وَآتَوُاْ الزَّكَاةَ فَخَلُّواْ سَبِيلَهُمْ إِنَّ اللّهَ غَفُورٌ رَّحِيمٌ
" According to this verse, the best way of staying safe from Muslim violence is to convert to Islam (prayer (salat) and the poor tax (zakat) are among the religion's Five Pillars). This popular claim that the Quran only inspires violence within the context of self-defense is seriously challenged by this passage as well, since the Muslims to whom it was written were obviously not under attack. Had they been, then there would have been no waiting period (earlier verses make it a duty for Muslims to fight in self-defense, even during the sacred months). The historical context is Mecca after the idolaters were subjugated by Muhammad and posed no threat. Once the Muslims had the power, they violently evicted those unbelievers who would not convert."

It seems there is a whole lot of kill-them verses in the Koran. Here are just a few: Now, I know there is more to the verse sometimes but it stills you to kill.Kill, KILL

Quran (8:12) - "I will cast terror into the hearts of those who disbelieve. Therefore strike off their heads and strike off every fingertip of them" No reasonable person would interpret this to mean a spiritual struggle.

Quran (8:15) - "O ye who believe! When ye meet those who disbelieve in battle, turn not your backs to them. (16)Whoso on that day turneth his back to them, unless maneuvering for battle or intent to join a company, he truly hath incurred wrath from Allah, and his habitation will be hell, a hapless journey's end."

Quran (8:39) - "And fight with them until there is no more fitna (disorder, unbelief) and religion should be only for Allah"

If you want more goto this site. There are a lot.

http://www.thereligionofpeace.com/quran/023-violence.htm
 

Bladerunner

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I just saw a leader of an extremist group on the BBC News. He said words to the effect "democracy belongs to God".

That may well be. My question would be who relays the message from God to the people?

That is the problem with a religious driven government, who elects intermediaries? (The people who relay the word of God to the congregation)

Rem one thing U.Gizmo: Islam is a government, religion and social justice all rolled into one. Ever hear of Shira Law, Iran is the type government Islam wants to install world wide and well then you have the religion part that runs it all.

I think you have some Shira Law enforcers in Europe (http://www.billionbibles.org/sharia/sharia-europe.html). Your next! Wake up Please
 

Bladerunner

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Islam came into being during the time of Adam (peace be upon him). He worshiped the same God that all the other Prophets and Messengers worshiped, so you are factually incorrect.

wrong.......... Islam was written around 600 AD. That is 600 years after the birth of Jesus Christ. Adam & Eve was created long before then. Of course your don't count Eve at all. She was a woman.
 

Bladerunner

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Hi Aziz:

Rem this:
Quote: Bladerunner

Let's see, you get 72 virgins if you are killed in battle killing infidels!
You said: Where is your reference? Anyone can quote what they want, I at least wherever possible quote verses from the Qur’an to support my arguments.

As I have stated before there are three major books of Islam which include the previous life of the Prophet.Here is" a collection of traditions containing sayings of the prophet Muhammad that, with accounts of his daily practice (the Sunna), constitute the major source of guidance for Muslims apart from the Koran."

"In the Sunan Ibn Majah, one of the six major Hadith collections, it states in a hasan (good) narration that every male admitted into Paradise will be given eternal erections and wed to 72 wives, all with libidinous sex organs. Similarly in another hadith with multiple narrators that has been graded hasan (good), it states that the martyr (shahid) will be married to seventy-two of al-hoor al-‘iyn (beautiful wifes).
 

Brianwarnock

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Blade could you please learn to use quotes so that we know who you are quoting , which are quotes and which are your own words, or is it all a ploy to stifle debate.

brian
 

nanscombe

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For thousands of years most, if not all, "men" (everyone after Adam & Eve) have been man-made, without the intervention of a god, as well.
 
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Galaxiom

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It seems there is a whole lot of kill-them verses in the Koran. Here are just a few: Now, I know there is more to the verse sometimes but it stills you to kill.Kill, KILL
Aziz will claim that you are quoting from anti-Islam hate site and the words have been twisted.

He will then twist the words to mean what he would like them to say.
 

Frothingslosh

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Aziz will claim that you are quoting from anti-Islam hate site and the words have been twisted.

He will then twist the words to mean what he would like them to say.

To be fair, Bladerunner does the same. Personally, I think they deserve each other. :)
 

Galaxiom

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Blade doesn't bother to twist the words. He just quotes without regard to whether they support his case or not.:rolleyes:
 

Vassago

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There seems to be a huge misconception between someone who is religious and someone who is an extremist. Extremists take something like a book at face value and strongly believe everything they see and read in it. That's where we get the nutjobs at Westboro or ISIL extremists. On the other hand, there are plenty of religious people who have modernized. They understand the book is not a complete set of rules that fit into the world today. Hell, even the Christian Bible has been modified throughout the years to fit into the social expectations of the time. Modern muslims are not different. They understand the world is different. How many have you met? I have Muslim friends. They are just as much an enemy and at risk of being killed by the extremists as Christians and atheists. Believe it.

Seriously! You can quote verses all you want, but do you believe that all Christians or Jews are virgins when they get married, would stone to death their wife if she wasn't a virgin at marriage? The Bible certainly says that as a hard rule, but we know it's severely outdated and don't follow it. Why would you think a true moderm Muslim would be any different?

Please refrain from personal attacks in this thread. Personally using someone's name to compare them to terrorists is absolutely wrong and distasteful. I'm sure you can debate without doing so.
 

spikepl

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The religious nutjobs cherrypick verses to suit their twisted purposes.

All that was exhibited to the full already ages ago by for example the infamous Letter to Dr. Laura. Yet, they just keep going and going ... The sheer idea of following a 2000-years old recipe for modern life is ridiculous. An interesting report of how little happens, when you try to find non-existing prescriptions for dealing with todays world could be found in Naipauls http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Among_the_Believers, which also uncovers the hypocrisy, which emerges when the tools of Satan suddenly are needed.
 

Frothingslosh

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The problem here is that both Bladerunner and Aziz have each stated, plainly and for the record, that their given holy book is literally the Word of God, perfect, infallible, and in all ways 100% accurate, not to be deviated from. (That is, in fact, where Aziz got his 'all people are born Muslim' rubbish.)

A good question for both would be if they agree with the terrible punishments listed for petty things in each book - Blade with execution by stoning for sex before marriage, talking back to your parents, or wearing cotton/polyester blends, and Aziz for with beheading for sex before marriage, drinking alcohol, or wiping with the right hand.

Alas, Blade has me on ignore and Aziz won't bother to read my posts, so someone else will need to ask them. :D
 

Galaxiom

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Extremists take something like a book at face value and strongly believe everything they see and read in it. That's where we get the nutjobs at Westboro or ISIL extremists.

The so called extremists are simply following what is written in the book. The cherry picking is done by the so called moderates who choose to ignore the parts that don't suit them.

However, by continuing to exalt the book, they give legitimacy to everything in it and those who choose to follow it thoroughly.

Blood spilled by the extremists is on the hand of the moderates too.

Only by renouncing these "holy" books for what they are can we move forward to a world where the ramblings of ignorant arrogant misogynist are not upheld as something to be respected.
 

Vassago

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The so called extremists are simply following what is written in the book. The cherry picking is done by the so called moderates who choose to ignore the parts that don't suit them.

However, by continuing to exalt the book, they give legitimacy to everything in it and those who choose to follow it thoroughly.

Blood spilled by the extremists is on the hand of the moderates too.

Only by renouncing these "holy" books for what they are can we move forward to a world where the ramblings of ignorant arrogant misogynist are not upheld as something to be respected.

I agree when it comes to religion in general. Most of the "holy" books out there are full of hate, bigotry, violence, slavery, and hellfire. I don't really care for any of them. My point had more to do with the fact that people make assumptions that one person in one of these "non-violent" religions is any different than someone in a "violent" religion just because of the label that religion gives them. All people of all religions have the capacity to take their "holy" books too literally and go on a rampage.

Don't even get me started on the FLDS or any of those groups. :rolleyes:
 

Bladerunner

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To Aziz:

I would like to personally apologize for the statement below. I was not referring to you personally when I made this statement. I believe you are one of the 3 billion Muslims that believe the Quran (Koran) is a peaceful religion. To this extent, I believe you would not hurt anyone intentionally even if the 'anyones' are non-believers.

Quote:Bladerunner: "Unlike Aziz, nobody who is a Christian is going to come and take your life because you do not believe.No one is going to force you to submit".
Quote Aziz:: "Can you point to the post where I said I would take someone’s life because they do not believe or do not submit? That is a manifest lie and I will be writing to the administrators regarding this severe and unsubstanted accusation."
 

Bladerunner

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Blade could you please learn to use quotes so that we know who you are quoting , which are quotes and which are your own words, or is it all a ploy to stifle debate.

brian

Brian, Please simply post a reply showing me how I am suppose to use the quotes like you need them to be.
 

ColinEssex

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Most religions are or have been the basis for wars, killing, murder, ethnic cleansing and other obscene atrocities.

I think associating with one (any one) is just as bad as joining the KKK or Nazi's.

I don't see how one can be affiliated with a religion knowing ones colleagues are killing and murdering on behalf of the same god one believes in.

It's no better than saying - i joined a cult, yes they ra** and kill but I don't, so it must be ok for me to be a member.

Why can't people see that?

Col
 

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