Are you an atheist? (2 Viewers)

[Rabbie]

A Muslim lady talking on TV the other evening said that the use of him and he when referring to Allah was for simplicity, her studies had not revealed any gender specific references for him.

Brian

Since they claim he is the same god as the Jewish god and the christian god referred to as god the father I would say she is grasping at straws

 

[Brianwarnock]

Since they claim he is the same god as the Jewish god and the christian god referred to as god the father I would say she is grasping at straws

Ah! But do Muslims refer to their god as a father, a Muslim I was talking to in Morocco referred to him as their master, I guess mistress would have had a different interpretation.

Please note that I am not arguing for the lady, but merely replying to a post mourning the lack of goddesses.
However the point that she was making is that the use of the male possessive adjective and pronouns is the default, I am old enough to remember when we did not write he/she Dear Sir or Madam etc and what's more I think that would have made the texts far harder to read, a bit like the frequent (peace be upon Him) scattered through aziz's posts, and that besides the use of these male words there was nothing else gender specific. Like you I doubt that she has many followers, yet.

Brian

 

[pmonaghan]

So some people wouldn't believe there was a god even if he appeared before them? There's a fine line between religion and madness but I'd prefer to have belief than accept that I would occasionally see a god like figure and not accept it...

 

[Vassago]

That sounds akin to, one day you might get struck by lightening, so it's best to just stay inside. The only difference being, you know you actually can be struck by lightening as it actually happens.

 

[Beetle]

So some people wouldn't believe there was a god even if he appeared before them?

He appeared before me earlier this evening, and yes, I do believe

 

[Adam Caramon]

So some people wouldn't believe there was a god even if he appeared before them?

I think even the people that answered #1 don't actually believe that. Its something to do with the way people read surveys or polls. They are so convinced that there is no god, that they didn't read the question as it is actually stated. They just wanted their opinion, i.e. no god, to be represented that they picked the most extreme option for that.

There's a fine line between religion and madness but I'd prefer to have belief than accept that I would occasionally see a god like figure and not accept it...

That's a false dichotomy.

 

[rodmc]

I remember reading a book once that was all about the atheist view vs the believer view.

Interestingly enough the author done a good job of getting both sides to agree to a common position and its all in the definition of what God is.

 

[Andy Mc]

Hi all
Interesting reading your views. The only point I'd like to make is that it's great to see a debate on this and a general theme away from the 'god delusion'. By the way, I found it to be a fantastic read - when read with some of his other books it really opens up the mind.

 

[AnthonyGerrard]

That's a false dichotomy.

No its wasnt - it was just a ranking of two of the choices from the opening question.

The ranking as outlined would be perfectly reasonable in any other subject area.

When talking of God though - atheists can leave aside reason clearly.

 

[AnthonyGerrard]

Since they claim he is the same god as the Jewish god and the christian god referred to as god the father I would say she is grasping at straws

Its not like if we discovered the bible or whatever texts had been written a couple of thousand years ago, we could reasonably deduce God doesnt exist. - even if she was "grasping as straws".

However - this isnt what she was doing -

Most believers have the nous and are indeed taught to know their texts are of their time, written for a reason, and indeed certain parts are now overlooked as not being apt.

They arent taken too literally - except by fundamentalist and atheists. Shes a little wiser than many of the atheist on here - thats for sure.

 

[aziz rasul]

Allah is fine with that.

Allaah gives us free will to do good or evil as we wish. He will then judge us on the Day of Judgement on what we have done. If you don't believe in God then you have nothing to worry about in this life. In the hereafter you won't have time to question Islam as you will be busy in other things.

But they who disbelieve, and deny Our revelations, such are rightful Peoples of the Fire. They will abide therein. 2.039

No doubt Sharia would forbid this despite it being the will of the people.

Yes God gives free will to people to do as they please within Sharia in a Muslim country. Australia is not a Muslim country. A Muslim country would not allow same gender marriages but people are free to go elsewhere just as I am free to leave a non Muslim country if I am not happy with it's laws. I don't think every Australian would agree with same gender marriages as you seem to be suggesting. There are many laws that the indigenous people might not agree with, buts' that's life. Having same gender marriages is not the only law of Australia. There are other norms by which people wish to live by and some of these norms are enshrined in Sharia which suggests that even non Muslims independently accept that there are certain rules that we should live by.

Once again you demonstrate that Islam is stuck in the past. Do we reintroduce premature death for young men so the Sharia might make sense or do we change the law to stop discrimination against women? Please answer this question.

Islam is just as relevant today as it was in the past. There is generally still more women to men even today. So the relevance to multiple marriages is just as relevant. After all you have many non Muslim men who have countless illicit affairs even though they are married. In Islam, the marriages would all be legal and in the open. Which is better? Premature deaths of men occur because of the injustices that take place in society. Sharia doesn't promote wars, it's men who do this. Why bring Sharia into this?

I had sex with women I was not married to. Is not this in defiance of Sharia?

It is and it will be dealt with on the Day of Judgement. If you broke Australian law, then the Australian authorities will deal with you as well assuming it was done in public.

An obviously sexist and arbitrary principle.

Nothing that God does is sexist or arbitrary. You are entitled to your view.

I could never have financially supported my wife hence we could never marry under you ridiculous laws, even though she had the means to support us.

As you are not a Muslim, why do you fret so much? What woman would marry a man who wasn't working or striving to earn a living to support them? No woman wants to marry a time waster.

No it couldn't be done then but once again you aptly demonstrate the anachronistic nature of Sharia. It is easy now.

But for thousands of years it wouldn't have been. In addition there is no command by Allaah for a woman to marry more than one man anyway so the issue is superfluous.

Yet the woman is directed to cover herself to a far greater extent than a man who is only told to lower his gaze.

A woman has more to cover that's why.

I have personally spent time naked in mixed company without any problems.

Whatever proclivities you may have is your own business and not all men are decent.

The rapes were justified by one of the leading mullahs by the hideous statement to the effect "If the meat is left out and a cat eats the meat then it is not the fault of the cat."

Islam is based on the Qur'an and Hadith, not what a mullah says.

More threats. You also failed to acknowledge that Allah had covered my ears so I could not hear His message. Just another incongruous statement in the Qur'an conveniently ignored by the faithful.

No threats, just a warning that God gives.

And who doth greater wrong than he who telleth a lie against Allah, and denieth the truth when it reacheth him ? Will not the home of disbelievers be in hell?

And whoso bringeth the truth and believeth therein - Such are the dutiful.

They shall have what they will of their Lord's bounty. That is the reward of the good:

That Allah will remit from them the worst of what they did, and will pay them for reward the best they used to do. 39.32-5

As I understand the OT is accepted as a holy text by Muslims. Are you quite happy with this arrangement Aziz? Of course you will say, it is the truth and the will of Allah since it is contained in a holy text given to us by a prophet.

And you expect to be respected for your beliefs?

Muslims are expected to accept that previous pristine scriptures were revealed such as the Torah (Arabic - Taurat). What you were quoting is from an adulterated version of the Torah which Muslims don't accept.

41. O Messenger! Let not those grieve thee, who race each other into unbelief: (whether it be) among those who say “We believe” with their lips but whose hearts have no faith; or it be among the Jews, - men who will listen to any lie, - will listen even to others who have never so much as come to thee. They change the words from their (right) times and places: they say, “If ye are given this, take it, but if not, beware!” If any one's trial is intended by Allaah, thou hast no authority in the least for him against Allaah. For such - it is not Allaah's will to purify their hearts. For them there is disgrace in this world, and in the Hereafter a heavy punishment.
42. (They are fond of) listening to falsehood, of devouring anything forbidden. If they do come to thee, either judge between them, or decline to interfere. If thou decline, they cannot hurt thee in the least. If thou judge, judge in equity between them. For Allaah loveth those who judge in equity.
43. But why do they come to thee for decision, when they have (their own) law before them? - Therein is the (plain) command of Allaah; yet even after that, they would turn away. For they are not (really) People of Faith.
44. It was We who revealed the law (to Moses): therein was guidance and light. By its standard have been judged the Jews, by the prophets who bowed (as in Islam) to Allaah's will, by the rabbis and the doctors of law: for to them was entrusted the protection of Allaah's book, and they were witnesses thereto: therefore fear not men, but fear me, and sell not my signs for a miserable price. If any do fail to judge by (the light of) what Allaah hath revealed, they are (no better than) Unbelievers.
45. We ordained therein for them: “Life for life, eye for eye, nose for nose, ear for ear, tooth for tooth, and wounds equal for equal.” But if any one remits the retaliation by way of charity, it is an act of atonement for himself. And if any fail to judge by (the light of) what Allaah hath revealed, they are (No better than) wrong-doers.
46. And in their footsteps We sent Jesus the son of Mary, confirming the Law that had come before him: We sent him the Injil: therein was guidance and light, and confirmation of the Law that had come before him: a guidance and an admonition to those who fear Allaah.
47. Let the People of the Gospel judge by that which Allaah hath revealed therein. Whoso judgeth not by that which Allaah hath revealed: such are evil-livers.
48. To thee We sent the Scripture in truth, confirming the scripture that came before it, and guarding it in safety: so judge between them by what Allaah hath revealed, and follow not their vain desires, diverging from the Truth that hath come to thee. To each among you have we prescribed a law and an open way. If Allaah had so willed, He would have made you a single people, but (His plan is) to test you in what He hath given you: so strive as in a race in all virtues. The goal of you all is to Allaah; it is He that will show you the truth of the matters in which ye dispute;
Qur’an - Surah al-Ma’aida (The Table Spread) 5:41-8

So despite being born of Pakistani parents do you really think you had no significant exposure to Islam as a child.

I had no formal education in Islam as I said unless you accept reading the Qur'an in Arabic, which is a language I don't understand as being exposure.

Even if you were not actively taught it, your upbringing would have formed a neatly Islam shaped hole you your psyche. It is not at all remarkable that you found Islam fitted that hole perfectly when you went looking.

Islam fitted me because it's the TRUTH. I have read other religions at the time I was looking into Islam. In fact I knew more about Christianity than any other religion as I was taught this at primary school. We even had a reverend who came every Friday to indoctrinate us. However it didn't work on me. God has given us a brain to think with.

You have demonstrated you are entirely incapable of objective thinking on this topic. You simply ignore what does not fit your doctrine as you have ignored the points made throughout the discussion that indicate much of what you say contradicts reality.

I have no doubt you will continue to ignore the questions I have put to you.

On the contrary I have objectively thought about my belief. I don't just accept God as a whim. It is you who with a lack of knowledge put your foot in your mouth each time. I'm simply trying to correct you. At least on the Day of Judgement you can't say you didn't know.

And they cry for help there, (saying): Our Lord! Release us; we will do right, not (the wrong) that we used to do. Did not We grant you a life long enough for him who reflected to reflect therein ? And the warner came unto you. Now taste (the flavour of your deeds), for evil-doers have no helper. 35.037

6. For those who reject their Lord (and Cherisher) is the Penalty of Hell: and evil is (such), Destination.
7. When they are cast therein, they will hear the (terrible) drawing in of its breath even as it blazes forth,
8. Almost bursting with fury: Every time a Group is cast therein, its Keepers will ask, "Did no Warner come to you?"
9. They will say: "Yes indeed; a Warner did come to us, but we rejected him and said, 'Allaah never sent down any (Message): ye are nothing but an egregious delusion!'"
10. They will further say: "Had we but listened or used our intelligence, we should not (now) be among the Companions of the Blazing Fire!"
11. They will then confess their sins: but far will be (Forgiveness) from the Companions of the Blazing Fire!
12. As for those who fear their Lord unseen, for them is Forgiveness and a great Reward.
13. And whether ye hide your word or publish it, He certainly has (full) knowledge, of the secrets of (all) hearts.
14. Should He not know,- He that created? and He is the One that understands the finest mysteries (and) is well-acquainted (with them).
Qur’an - Surah al-Mulk (The Sovereignty) 67:6-14

If as Aziz says, he really wants us all to be Islam why does he allow the other (false) religions to flourish.

Because He is testing us.

Fascism is typically a situation where a ruling oligarchy enforces laws over a population that has no say in the nature of the laws. In Australia we have a democracy and those limitations are endorsed by the people

Islamic laws are endorsed by our Creator.

Here you reveal the true nature of your presence in this country. The likes of your family left the corrupt society where they lived and want to recreate what is wrong in their own country by inserting themselves and their fascist doctrine on a democracy.

My family left because we had to flee India and were left with nothing so on an economic basis my family came here not to spread the word as I have chosen of course to do. Why should you who is supposed to be a democrat resent my voice from being heard particularly when I'm breaking no law?

I don't have a problem with people who want to live under Sharia for their personal guidance.

However this is never enough for the religious who insist that everyone be bound by their arbitrary laws. Most people use alcohol without any problem and you would deny them that choice. That is fascism.

God's laws are not arbitrary as you incorrectly put it. Muslims aren't forcing any non Muslims to accept Islam and neither does the Qur'an say this.

109.001 Say: O disbelievers!
109.002 I worship not that which ye worship;
109.003 Nor worship ye that which I worship.
109.004 And I shall not worship that which ye worship.
109.005 Nor will ye worship that which I worship.
109.006 Unto you your religion, and unto me my religion.

 

[Rabbie]

Its not like if we discovered the bible or whatever texts had been written a couple of thousand years ago, we could reasonably deduce God doesnt exist. - even if she was "grasping as straws".

However - this isnt what she was doing -

Most believers have the nous and are indeed taught to know their texts are of their time, written for a reason, and indeed certain parts are now overlooked as not being apt.

They arent taken too literally - except by fundamentalist and atheists. Shes a little wiser than many of the atheist on here - thats for sure.

I don' know of any atheists who think the "holy books" are true.

Yes they do point out the many inconsistencies but only to refute the arguments of religious fundamentalists.

The muslim lady that Brian quoted may be correct in saying the qur'an does not give Allah a gender but since Allah is the same god as the jewish god and the christian god who are definitely male. That is surely a fundamental tenet of christianity that Mary was made pregnant with Jesus by god normally referred to as god the father. No doubt there about his gender.

Finally please refrain from personal insults to people contributing to this thread.

 

[Brianwarnock]

Rabbie
Do Muslims say that Allah made Mary pregnant with Jesus? And do they refer to Him as a father?

Brian

 

[Brianwarnock]

We are told not to insult other posters but I feel that Aziz insults our intelligence with many of his responses, one simple example is when Galaxiom raised the issue of modesty,

quote from Galaxiom
Yet the woman is directed to cover herself to a far greater extent than a man who is only told to lower his gaze.

reply by Aziz
A woman has more to cover that's why.

What like Muslim men have no head?

Actually I could not find in the Qu'ran the passage saying that women had to cover their heads and faces, perhaps Aziz can quote it for us and explain why.

Brian

 

[aziz rasul]

Do Muslims say that Allah made Mary pregnant with Jesus? And do they refer to Him as a father?

Allaah did not make Maryam (peace be upon her) pregnant.

Mary (peace be upon her) secludes herself in the temple of Jerusalem facing east. She places herself in a state of devotion and worship to the One God.

During this time, Gabriel (peace be upon him) appears and announces the gift of a holy son. Gabriel (peace be upon him) breathes into Mary (peace be upon her) and she conceives. This is not dissimilar to the breathing into Adam and Eve (peace be upon them), which brings them to life.

16. And make mention of Mary in the Scripture, when she had withdrawn from her people to a chamber looking East,
17. And had chosen seclusion from them. Then We sent unto her Our Spirit (Ruh) and it assumed for her the likeness of a perfect man.
18. She said: Lo! I seek refuge in the Beneficent One from thee, if thou art God-fearing.
19. He said: “Nay, I am only a messenger (rasul) from thy Lord, (to announce) to thee the gift of a holy son.
20. She said: “How shall I have a son, seeing that no man has touched me, and I am not unchaste?”
21. He said: “So (it will be): Thy Lord saith, 'that is easy for Me: and (We wish) to appoint him as a Sign unto men and a Mercy from Us': It is a matter (so) decreed.”
Qur’an - Surah Maryam (Mary) 19:16-21

And (remember) her who guarded her chastity: We breathed into her of Our Spirit (Ruh), and We made her and her son a sign for all peoples.
Qur’an - Surah al-Anbiyaa (The Prophets) 21:91

And Mary the daughter of 'Imraan, who guarded her chastity; and We breathed into (her body) of Our Spirit (Ruh); and she testified to the truth of the words of her Lord and of His Revelations, and was one of the devout (servants).
Qur’an – Surah at-Tahrim (Banning) 66:12

The similitude of Jesus before Allaah is as that of Adam; He created him from dust, then said to him: “Be”. And he was.
Qur’an - Surah al-`Imraan (The Family of `Imraan) 3:59

The similitude between Jesus and Adam (peace be upon them) is further emphasised by the fact that their names occur in the Qur’an at 25 times each in addition to the fact that neither prophet had a father.

The birth of Jesus (peace be upon him). In her anguish of childbirth, Gabriel (peace be upon him) asks her to shake a dead palm tree, which miraculously bears dates. Mary (peace be upon her) is specifically commanded not to speak to any person, a fast through speech. This becomes a significant command in line with 19:30-3 below.

22. So she conceived him, and she retired with him to a remote place.
23. And the pains of childbirth drove her to the trunk of a palm-tree: She cried (in her anguish): “Ah! Would that I had died before this! Would that I had been a thing forgotten and out of sight!”
24. But (a voice) cried to her from beneath the (palm-tree): “Grieve not! For thy Lord hath provided a rivulet beneath thee;
25. “And shake towards thyself the trunk of the palm-tree: It will let fall fresh ripe dates upon thee.
26. “So eat and drink and cool (thine) eye. And if thou dost see any man, say, 'I have vowed a fast to (Allaah) Most Gracious, and this day will I enter into not talk with any human being'“
27. At length she brought the (babe) to her people, carrying him (in her arms). They said: “O Mary! Truly an amazing thing hast thou brought!
Qur’an - Surah Maryam (Mary) 19:22-7

When Mary (peace be upon her) brings forth her son at forty days old, she is accused of being a wicked woman. The people point out to her that she comes from a noble line, that of Prophet Aaron (peace be upon him) himself.

The first of many miracles of Jesus (peace be upon him) occurs. At the age of 40 days old, he speaks. This results in the charge against Mary being dropped, also the charge against Zakariyah as he had been falsely accused concerning Mary’s condition and finally confirming that Jesus was indeed a miraculous baby and a prophet. Peace be upon them all. The story clearly shows that the plans of God cannot be overcome by anyone. If God decrees a matter, it is done.

28. “O sister of Aaron! Thy father was not a man of evil, nor thy mother a woman unchaste!”
29. But she pointed to the babe. They said: “How can we talk to one who is a child in the cradle?”
30. He said: “I am indeed a servant of Allaah: He hath given me revelation and made me a prophet;
31. “And He hath made me blessed wheresoever I be, and hath enjoined on me Prayer and Charity as long as I live;
32. And (hath made me) dutiful toward her who bore me, and hath not made me arrogant, unblest.
33. And peace on me on the day I was born, and on the day I die, and on the day I am raised to life.
34. Such (was) Jesus the son of Mary: (it is) a statement of truth, about which they (vainly) dispute.
Qur’an - Surah Maryam (Mary) 19:28-34

 

[Brianwarnock]

Thank you for the reply.

What about the question I asked about how you regard Allah, as a father or a master, perhaps neither just God.

Brian

 

[Brianwarnock]

Just 2 but a true devotee to the Geat FSM.

 

[AnthonyGerrard]

I don' know of any atheists who think the "holy books" are true.

Yes they do point out the many inconsistencies but only to refute the arguments of religious fundamentalists.

The muslim lady that Brian quoted may be correct in saying the qur'an does not give Allah a gender but since Allah is the same god as the jewish god and the christian god who are definitely male. That is surely a fundamental tenet of christianity that Mary was made pregnant with Jesus by god normally referred to as god the father. No doubt there about his gender.

Finally please refrain from personal insults to people contributing to this thread.

Most of religion are not fundamentalists, and dont read texts literally.

To refute the muslim lady who clearly wasnt reading holy text literally - you had to assume the bible as literal - in order to get a contradication. But that really doesnt follow. You introduced the contradiction in your assumption.

Even if you did read texts literally "God the Father" - that dosnt tell us much about gender which was what you referred to.

That confusion in language should tell you because of time, context, changes of meaning, translation and plain mistakes - to do as you do and refute a text based on a literal meaning - is as unwise as to adhere to it.

You certainly cant use a literal reading to refute a non literal reading as you have attempted.



There was no personal insult.

 

[John Big Booty]

Just 2 but a true devotee to the Geat FSM.

A true believer if ever there was and most definitely touched by his noodley appendage

 

[John Big Booty]

... perhaps penne rather than noodle though