Are you an atheist? (2 Viewers)

[rodmc]

I remember reading a book once that was all about the atheist view vs the believer view.

Interestingly enough the author done a good job of getting both sides to agree to a common position and its all in the definition of what God is.

 

[Andy Mc]

Hi all
Interesting reading your views. The only point I'd like to make is that it's great to see a debate on this and a general theme away from the 'god delusion'. By the way, I found it to be a fantastic read - when read with some of his other books it really opens up the mind.

 

[AnthonyGerrard]

That's a false dichotomy.

No its wasnt - it was just a ranking of two of the choices from the opening question.

The ranking as outlined would be perfectly reasonable in any other subject area.

When talking of God though - atheists can leave aside reason clearly.

 

[AnthonyGerrard]

Since they claim he is the same god as the Jewish god and the christian god referred to as god the father I would say she is grasping at straws

Its not like if we discovered the bible or whatever texts had been written a couple of thousand years ago, we could reasonably deduce God doesnt exist. - even if she was "grasping as straws".

However - this isnt what she was doing -

Most believers have the nous and are indeed taught to know their texts are of their time, written for a reason, and indeed certain parts are now overlooked as not being apt.

They arent taken too literally - except by fundamentalist and atheists. Shes a little wiser than many of the atheist on here - thats for sure.

 

[aziz rasul]

Allah is fine with that.

Allaah gives us free will to do good or evil as we wish. He will then judge us on the Day of Judgement on what we have done. If you don't believe in God then you have nothing to worry about in this life. In the hereafter you won't have time to question Islam as you will be busy in other things.

But they who disbelieve, and deny Our revelations, such are rightful Peoples of the Fire. They will abide therein. 2.039

No doubt Sharia would forbid this despite it being the will of the people.

Yes God gives free will to people to do as they please within Sharia in a Muslim country. Australia is not a Muslim country. A Muslim country would not allow same gender marriages but people are free to go elsewhere just as I am free to leave a non Muslim country if I am not happy with it's laws. I don't think every Australian would agree with same gender marriages as you seem to be suggesting. There are many laws that the indigenous people might not agree with, buts' that's life. Having same gender marriages is not the only law of Australia. There are other norms by which people wish to live by and some of these norms are enshrined in Sharia which suggests that even non Muslims independently accept that there are certain rules that we should live by.

Once again you demonstrate that Islam is stuck in the past. Do we reintroduce premature death for young men so the Sharia might make sense or do we change the law to stop discrimination against women? Please answer this question.

Islam is just as relevant today as it was in the past. There is generally still more women to men even today. So the relevance to multiple marriages is just as relevant. After all you have many non Muslim men who have countless illicit affairs even though they are married. In Islam, the marriages would all be legal and in the open. Which is better? Premature deaths of men occur because of the injustices that take place in society. Sharia doesn't promote wars, it's men who do this. Why bring Sharia into this?

I had sex with women I was not married to. Is not this in defiance of Sharia?

It is and it will be dealt with on the Day of Judgement. If you broke Australian law, then the Australian authorities will deal with you as well assuming it was done in public.

An obviously sexist and arbitrary principle.

Nothing that God does is sexist or arbitrary. You are entitled to your view.

I could never have financially supported my wife hence we could never marry under you ridiculous laws, even though she had the means to support us.

As you are not a Muslim, why do you fret so much? What woman would marry a man who wasn't working or striving to earn a living to support them? No woman wants to marry a time waster.

No it couldn't be done then but once again you aptly demonstrate the anachronistic nature of Sharia. It is easy now.

But for thousands of years it wouldn't have been. In addition there is no command by Allaah for a woman to marry more than one man anyway so the issue is superfluous.

Yet the woman is directed to cover herself to a far greater extent than a man who is only told to lower his gaze.

A woman has more to cover that's why.

I have personally spent time naked in mixed company without any problems.

Whatever proclivities you may have is your own business and not all men are decent.

The rapes were justified by one of the leading mullahs by the hideous statement to the effect "If the meat is left out and a cat eats the meat then it is not the fault of the cat."

Islam is based on the Qur'an and Hadith, not what a mullah says.

More threats. You also failed to acknowledge that Allah had covered my ears so I could not hear His message. Just another incongruous statement in the Qur'an conveniently ignored by the faithful.

No threats, just a warning that God gives.

And who doth greater wrong than he who telleth a lie against Allah, and denieth the truth when it reacheth him ? Will not the home of disbelievers be in hell?

And whoso bringeth the truth and believeth therein - Such are the dutiful.

They shall have what they will of their Lord's bounty. That is the reward of the good:

That Allah will remit from them the worst of what they did, and will pay them for reward the best they used to do. 39.32-5

As I understand the OT is accepted as a holy text by Muslims. Are you quite happy with this arrangement Aziz? Of course you will say, it is the truth and the will of Allah since it is contained in a holy text given to us by a prophet.

And you expect to be respected for your beliefs?

Muslims are expected to accept that previous pristine scriptures were revealed such as the Torah (Arabic - Taurat). What you were quoting is from an adulterated version of the Torah which Muslims don't accept.

41. O Messenger! Let not those grieve thee, who race each other into unbelief: (whether it be) among those who say “We believe” with their lips but whose hearts have no faith; or it be among the Jews, - men who will listen to any lie, - will listen even to others who have never so much as come to thee. They change the words from their (right) times and places: they say, “If ye are given this, take it, but if not, beware!” If any one's trial is intended by Allaah, thou hast no authority in the least for him against Allaah. For such - it is not Allaah's will to purify their hearts. For them there is disgrace in this world, and in the Hereafter a heavy punishment.
42. (They are fond of) listening to falsehood, of devouring anything forbidden. If they do come to thee, either judge between them, or decline to interfere. If thou decline, they cannot hurt thee in the least. If thou judge, judge in equity between them. For Allaah loveth those who judge in equity.
43. But why do they come to thee for decision, when they have (their own) law before them? - Therein is the (plain) command of Allaah; yet even after that, they would turn away. For they are not (really) People of Faith.
44. It was We who revealed the law (to Moses): therein was guidance and light. By its standard have been judged the Jews, by the prophets who bowed (as in Islam) to Allaah's will, by the rabbis and the doctors of law: for to them was entrusted the protection of Allaah's book, and they were witnesses thereto: therefore fear not men, but fear me, and sell not my signs for a miserable price. If any do fail to judge by (the light of) what Allaah hath revealed, they are (no better than) Unbelievers.
45. We ordained therein for them: “Life for life, eye for eye, nose for nose, ear for ear, tooth for tooth, and wounds equal for equal.” But if any one remits the retaliation by way of charity, it is an act of atonement for himself. And if any fail to judge by (the light of) what Allaah hath revealed, they are (No better than) wrong-doers.
46. And in their footsteps We sent Jesus the son of Mary, confirming the Law that had come before him: We sent him the Injil: therein was guidance and light, and confirmation of the Law that had come before him: a guidance and an admonition to those who fear Allaah.
47. Let the People of the Gospel judge by that which Allaah hath revealed therein. Whoso judgeth not by that which Allaah hath revealed: such are evil-livers.
48. To thee We sent the Scripture in truth, confirming the scripture that came before it, and guarding it in safety: so judge between them by what Allaah hath revealed, and follow not their vain desires, diverging from the Truth that hath come to thee. To each among you have we prescribed a law and an open way. If Allaah had so willed, He would have made you a single people, but (His plan is) to test you in what He hath given you: so strive as in a race in all virtues. The goal of you all is to Allaah; it is He that will show you the truth of the matters in which ye dispute;
Qur’an - Surah al-Ma’aida (The Table Spread) 5:41-8

So despite being born of Pakistani parents do you really think you had no significant exposure to Islam as a child.

I had no formal education in Islam as I said unless you accept reading the Qur'an in Arabic, which is a language I don't understand as being exposure.

Even if you were not actively taught it, your upbringing would have formed a neatly Islam shaped hole you your psyche. It is not at all remarkable that you found Islam fitted that hole perfectly when you went looking.

Islam fitted me because it's the TRUTH. I have read other religions at the time I was looking into Islam. In fact I knew more about Christianity than any other religion as I was taught this at primary school. We even had a reverend who came every Friday to indoctrinate us. However it didn't work on me. God has given us a brain to think with.

You have demonstrated you are entirely incapable of objective thinking on this topic. You simply ignore what does not fit your doctrine as you have ignored the points made throughout the discussion that indicate much of what you say contradicts reality.

I have no doubt you will continue to ignore the questions I have put to you.

On the contrary I have objectively thought about my belief. I don't just accept God as a whim. It is you who with a lack of knowledge put your foot in your mouth each time. I'm simply trying to correct you. At least on the Day of Judgement you can't say you didn't know.

And they cry for help there, (saying): Our Lord! Release us; we will do right, not (the wrong) that we used to do. Did not We grant you a life long enough for him who reflected to reflect therein ? And the warner came unto you. Now taste (the flavour of your deeds), for evil-doers have no helper. 35.037

6. For those who reject their Lord (and Cherisher) is the Penalty of Hell: and evil is (such), Destination.
7. When they are cast therein, they will hear the (terrible) drawing in of its breath even as it blazes forth,
8. Almost bursting with fury: Every time a Group is cast therein, its Keepers will ask, "Did no Warner come to you?"
9. They will say: "Yes indeed; a Warner did come to us, but we rejected him and said, 'Allaah never sent down any (Message): ye are nothing but an egregious delusion!'"
10. They will further say: "Had we but listened or used our intelligence, we should not (now) be among the Companions of the Blazing Fire!"
11. They will then confess their sins: but far will be (Forgiveness) from the Companions of the Blazing Fire!
12. As for those who fear their Lord unseen, for them is Forgiveness and a great Reward.
13. And whether ye hide your word or publish it, He certainly has (full) knowledge, of the secrets of (all) hearts.
14. Should He not know,- He that created? and He is the One that understands the finest mysteries (and) is well-acquainted (with them).
Qur’an - Surah al-Mulk (The Sovereignty) 67:6-14

If as Aziz says, he really wants us all to be Islam why does he allow the other (false) religions to flourish.

Because He is testing us.

Fascism is typically a situation where a ruling oligarchy enforces laws over a population that has no say in the nature of the laws. In Australia we have a democracy and those limitations are endorsed by the people

Islamic laws are endorsed by our Creator.

Here you reveal the true nature of your presence in this country. The likes of your family left the corrupt society where they lived and want to recreate what is wrong in their own country by inserting themselves and their fascist doctrine on a democracy.

My family left because we had to flee India and were left with nothing so on an economic basis my family came here not to spread the word as I have chosen of course to do. Why should you who is supposed to be a democrat resent my voice from being heard particularly when I'm breaking no law?

I don't have a problem with people who want to live under Sharia for their personal guidance.

However this is never enough for the religious who insist that everyone be bound by their arbitrary laws. Most people use alcohol without any problem and you would deny them that choice. That is fascism.

God's laws are not arbitrary as you incorrectly put it. Muslims aren't forcing any non Muslims to accept Islam and neither does the Qur'an say this.

109.001 Say: O disbelievers!
109.002 I worship not that which ye worship;
109.003 Nor worship ye that which I worship.
109.004 And I shall not worship that which ye worship.
109.005 Nor will ye worship that which I worship.
109.006 Unto you your religion, and unto me my religion.

 

[Rabbie]

Its not like if we discovered the bible or whatever texts had been written a couple of thousand years ago, we could reasonably deduce God doesnt exist. - even if she was "grasping as straws".

However - this isnt what she was doing -

Most believers have the nous and are indeed taught to know their texts are of their time, written for a reason, and indeed certain parts are now overlooked as not being apt.

They arent taken too literally - except by fundamentalist and atheists. Shes a little wiser than many of the atheist on here - thats for sure.

I don' know of any atheists who think the "holy books" are true.

Yes they do point out the many inconsistencies but only to refute the arguments of religious fundamentalists.

The muslim lady that Brian quoted may be correct in saying the qur'an does not give Allah a gender but since Allah is the same god as the jewish god and the christian god who are definitely male. That is surely a fundamental tenet of christianity that Mary was made pregnant with Jesus by god normally referred to as god the father. No doubt there about his gender.

Finally please refrain from personal insults to people contributing to this thread.

 

[Brianwarnock]

Rabbie
Do Muslims say that Allah made Mary pregnant with Jesus? And do they refer to Him as a father?

Brian

 

[Brianwarnock]

We are told not to insult other posters but I feel that Aziz insults our intelligence with many of his responses, one simple example is when Galaxiom raised the issue of modesty,

quote from Galaxiom
Yet the woman is directed to cover herself to a far greater extent than a man who is only told to lower his gaze.

reply by Aziz
A woman has more to cover that's why.

What like Muslim men have no head?

Actually I could not find in the Qu'ran the passage saying that women had to cover their heads and faces, perhaps Aziz can quote it for us and explain why.

Brian

 

[aziz rasul]

Do Muslims say that Allah made Mary pregnant with Jesus? And do they refer to Him as a father?

Allaah did not make Maryam (peace be upon her) pregnant.

Mary (peace be upon her) secludes herself in the temple of Jerusalem facing east. She places herself in a state of devotion and worship to the One God.

During this time, Gabriel (peace be upon him) appears and announces the gift of a holy son. Gabriel (peace be upon him) breathes into Mary (peace be upon her) and she conceives. This is not dissimilar to the breathing into Adam and Eve (peace be upon them), which brings them to life.

16. And make mention of Mary in the Scripture, when she had withdrawn from her people to a chamber looking East,
17. And had chosen seclusion from them. Then We sent unto her Our Spirit (Ruh) and it assumed for her the likeness of a perfect man.
18. She said: Lo! I seek refuge in the Beneficent One from thee, if thou art God-fearing.
19. He said: “Nay, I am only a messenger (rasul) from thy Lord, (to announce) to thee the gift of a holy son.
20. She said: “How shall I have a son, seeing that no man has touched me, and I am not unchaste?”
21. He said: “So (it will be): Thy Lord saith, 'that is easy for Me: and (We wish) to appoint him as a Sign unto men and a Mercy from Us': It is a matter (so) decreed.”
Qur’an - Surah Maryam (Mary) 19:16-21

And (remember) her who guarded her chastity: We breathed into her of Our Spirit (Ruh), and We made her and her son a sign for all peoples.
Qur’an - Surah al-Anbiyaa (The Prophets) 21:91

And Mary the daughter of 'Imraan, who guarded her chastity; and We breathed into (her body) of Our Spirit (Ruh); and she testified to the truth of the words of her Lord and of His Revelations, and was one of the devout (servants).
Qur’an – Surah at-Tahrim (Banning) 66:12

The similitude of Jesus before Allaah is as that of Adam; He created him from dust, then said to him: “Be”. And he was.
Qur’an - Surah al-`Imraan (The Family of `Imraan) 3:59

The similitude between Jesus and Adam (peace be upon them) is further emphasised by the fact that their names occur in the Qur’an at 25 times each in addition to the fact that neither prophet had a father.

The birth of Jesus (peace be upon him). In her anguish of childbirth, Gabriel (peace be upon him) asks her to shake a dead palm tree, which miraculously bears dates. Mary (peace be upon her) is specifically commanded not to speak to any person, a fast through speech. This becomes a significant command in line with 19:30-3 below.

22. So she conceived him, and she retired with him to a remote place.
23. And the pains of childbirth drove her to the trunk of a palm-tree: She cried (in her anguish): “Ah! Would that I had died before this! Would that I had been a thing forgotten and out of sight!”
24. But (a voice) cried to her from beneath the (palm-tree): “Grieve not! For thy Lord hath provided a rivulet beneath thee;
25. “And shake towards thyself the trunk of the palm-tree: It will let fall fresh ripe dates upon thee.
26. “So eat and drink and cool (thine) eye. And if thou dost see any man, say, 'I have vowed a fast to (Allaah) Most Gracious, and this day will I enter into not talk with any human being'“
27. At length she brought the (babe) to her people, carrying him (in her arms). They said: “O Mary! Truly an amazing thing hast thou brought!
Qur’an - Surah Maryam (Mary) 19:22-7

When Mary (peace be upon her) brings forth her son at forty days old, she is accused of being a wicked woman. The people point out to her that she comes from a noble line, that of Prophet Aaron (peace be upon him) himself.

The first of many miracles of Jesus (peace be upon him) occurs. At the age of 40 days old, he speaks. This results in the charge against Mary being dropped, also the charge against Zakariyah as he had been falsely accused concerning Mary’s condition and finally confirming that Jesus was indeed a miraculous baby and a prophet. Peace be upon them all. The story clearly shows that the plans of God cannot be overcome by anyone. If God decrees a matter, it is done.

28. “O sister of Aaron! Thy father was not a man of evil, nor thy mother a woman unchaste!”
29. But she pointed to the babe. They said: “How can we talk to one who is a child in the cradle?”
30. He said: “I am indeed a servant of Allaah: He hath given me revelation and made me a prophet;
31. “And He hath made me blessed wheresoever I be, and hath enjoined on me Prayer and Charity as long as I live;
32. And (hath made me) dutiful toward her who bore me, and hath not made me arrogant, unblest.
33. And peace on me on the day I was born, and on the day I die, and on the day I am raised to life.
34. Such (was) Jesus the son of Mary: (it is) a statement of truth, about which they (vainly) dispute.
Qur’an - Surah Maryam (Mary) 19:28-34

 

[Brianwarnock]

Thank you for the reply.

What about the question I asked about how you regard Allah, as a father or a master, perhaps neither just God.

Brian

 

[Brianwarnock]

Just 2 but a true devotee to the Geat FSM.

 

[AnthonyGerrard]

I don' know of any atheists who think the "holy books" are true.

Yes they do point out the many inconsistencies but only to refute the arguments of religious fundamentalists.

The muslim lady that Brian quoted may be correct in saying the qur'an does not give Allah a gender but since Allah is the same god as the jewish god and the christian god who are definitely male. That is surely a fundamental tenet of christianity that Mary was made pregnant with Jesus by god normally referred to as god the father. No doubt there about his gender.

Finally please refrain from personal insults to people contributing to this thread.

Most of religion are not fundamentalists, and dont read texts literally.

To refute the muslim lady who clearly wasnt reading holy text literally - you had to assume the bible as literal - in order to get a contradication. But that really doesnt follow. You introduced the contradiction in your assumption.

Even if you did read texts literally "God the Father" - that dosnt tell us much about gender which was what you referred to.

That confusion in language should tell you because of time, context, changes of meaning, translation and plain mistakes - to do as you do and refute a text based on a literal meaning - is as unwise as to adhere to it.

You certainly cant use a literal reading to refute a non literal reading as you have attempted.



There was no personal insult.

 

[John Big Booty]

Just 2 but a true devotee to the Geat FSM.

A true believer if ever there was and most definitely touched by his noodley appendage

 

[John Big Booty]

... perhaps penne rather than noodle though

 

[John Big Booty]

We are told not to insult other posters but I feel that Aziz insults our intelligence with many of his responses, one simple example is when Galaxiom raised the issue of modesty,

quote from Galaxiom
Yet the woman is directed to cover herself to a far greater extent than a man who is only told to lower his gaze.

What like Muslim men have no head?

...
Brian

My understanding of the reasoning behind the direction that Christian woman
should cover their heads whilst attending Church, is so as not to titillate the cherubs looking down from above (but then aren't they supposed to be sexless Cherub that is)

So WTF is it with female head hair and religion

 

[Galaxiom]

A Muslim country would not allow same gender marriages but people are free to go elsewhere just as I am free to leave a non Muslim country if I am not happy with it's laws.

Yet you claimed there was no prejudice against homosexuality in the Qu'ran. Why is it not permitted then?

I don't think every Australian would agree with same gender marriages as you seem to be suggesting.

I have not suggested all Australians take this position. However it is clear that the majority of Australians share this view. As such the change to the law is just a matter of time.

There are other norms by which people wish to live by and some of these norms are enshrined in Sharia which suggests that even non Muslims independently accept that there are certain rules that we should live by.

Certainly. But these rules do not come from Sharia. Moreover those of us with a developed sense of morality also agree that prejudice against women is not acceptable and hence reject the bigotry of Mohammed and those who wrote the hideous Hebrew tomes.

There is generally still more women to men even today. So the relevance to multiple marriages is just as relevant.

Here you repeat the same fallacy you posted before. I posted a link to statistics that show your assertion is incorrect. Your behaviour is typical of the religious who simply ignore the facts and repeat to their delusions.

After all you have many non Muslim men who have countless illicit affairs even though they are married. In Islam, the marriages would all be legal and in the open. Which is better?

Women also have affairs yet you do not accept that polyandry is just as valid a solution as polygyny. This is because your beliefs are fundamentally prejudiced and irrational.

Nothing that God does is sexist or arbitrary. You are entitled to your view.

The holy texts are nothing but the word of men and are demonstrably sexist.

What woman would marry a man who wasn't working or striving to earn a living to support them? No woman wants to marry a time waster.

Again you exhibit your prejudice. This is entirely a private matter between the couple. I raised the issue because you stated (in your usual bigoted manner) that a man who could not support his wife should not marry. This is objectively sexually prejudiced.

In addition there is no command by Allaah for a woman to marry more than one man anyway so the issue is superfluous.

Again you use your circular logic and a perspective profoundly limited by your obsession with the exaltation of the Qu'ran to justify your prejudice.

A woman has more to cover that's why.

More blatant prejudice. Perhaps you could answer the question on this matter as put to your by Brian.

I had no formal education in Islam as I said unless you accept reading the Qur'an in Arabic, which is a language I don't understand as being exposure.

Exactly as I suggested. You were brought up from birth with the concept that the Qu'ran has special significance whether you could read it or not. I knew this would be case because of your extreme deference to it.

Islam fitted me because it's the TRUTH. I have read other religions at the time I was looking into Islam. In fact I knew more about Christianity than any other religion as I was taught this at primary school. We even had a reverend who came every Friday to indoctrinate us. However it didn't work on me. God has given us a brain to think with.

Your ability to think atrophied long ago. Judaism. Christianity and Islam are all based or rubbish written by primitive, ignorant, arrogant, misogynist men.

On the contrary I have objectively thought about my belief. I don't just accept God as a whim.

Your posts here are littered with circular logic leading back to your obsession with the drivel in the Qu'ran over and over again and show you have zero capacity for objective thinking.

My family left because we had to flee India and were left with nothing so on an economic basis my family came here not to spread the word as I have chosen of course to do.

Your family had to flee India because of religious conflict. Basically the majority of the Indian population grew tired of arrogant Muslims who insisted that Islam is the only valid way to think. Indeed much of the spread of Islam was driven by Arab traders who refused to deal with any who were not Muslims. This is an insidious a form of prejudice and corruption.

Why should you who is supposed to be a democrat resent my voice from being heard particularly when I'm breaking no law?

I don't resent you expressing your views. In fact I applaud it since it exposes the ridiculous nature of your faith for all to see. Please do continue.

 

[aziz rasul]

We are told not to insult other posters but I feel that Aziz insults our intelligence with many of his responses

Brian, you are not a Muslim so whatever I say may sound unintelligent to you. But if you asked a Muslim, they might agree with what I say. So it depends from which direction you are coming from.

The subject of modesty is not rocket science. It is clear with all societies that certain norms of decencies are required and is not a subject that should be difficult to understand. When I said that a woman has more to cover this was natural. After all a woman could not walk about as a man would if he was bare chested. Hence the question of modesty for a woman is more than for a man.

During the Days of Ignorance 14 centuries ago, women used to show their cleavage and would be pestered by men. God asked the believing women to cover themselves up so as to distinguish them from the unbelievers.

024.030 Tell the believing men to lower their gaze and be modest. That is purer for them. Lo! Allah is aware of what they do.

024.031 And tell the believing women to lower their gaze and be modest, and to display of their adornment only that which is apparent, and to draw their veils over their bosoms, and not to reveal their adornment save to their own husbands or fathers or husbands' fathers, or their sons or their husbands' sons, or their brothers or their brothers' sons or sisters' sons, or their women, or their slaves, or male attendants who lack vigour, or children who know naught of women's nakedness. And let them not stamp their feet so as to reveal what they hide of their adornment. And turn unto Allah together, O believers, in order that ye may succeed.

033.059 O Prophet! Tell thy wives and thy daughters and the women of the believers to draw their cloaks close round them (when they go abroad). That will be better, so that they may be recognised and not annoyed. Allah is ever Forgiving, Merciful.

When the poor came to the house of the Prophet (peace be upon him) to ask for food, some of them would ask familiar questions to which the Prophet (peace be upon him) disliked.

033.053 O Ye who believe! Enter not the dwellings of the Prophet for a meal without waiting for the proper time, unless permission be granted you. But if ye are invited, enter, and, when your meal is ended, then disperse. Linger not for conversation. Lo! that would cause annoyance to the Prophet, and he would be shy of (asking) you (to go); but Allah is not shy of the truth. And when ye ask of them (the wives of the Prophet) anything, ask it of them from behind a curtain. That is purer for your hearts and for their hearts. And it is not for you to cause annoyance to the messenger of Allah, nor that ye should ever marry his wives after him. Lo! that in Allah's sight would be an enormity.

Mary (peace be upon her) also covered herself in the way that God says in the Qur'an.

We see Christian nuns covering themselves in the same way. So not just confined to Islam.

All people were commanded by God to cover themselves.

007.026 O Children of Adam! We have revealed unto you raiment to conceal your shame, and splendid vesture, but the raiment of restraint from evil, that is best. This is of the revelations of Allah, that they may remember.

Actually I could not find in the Qu'ran the passage saying that women had to cover their heads and faces, perhaps Aziz can quote it for us and explain why.

The Arabic word jilbaab is used in the Qur'an which is a covering from the head to the feet. The hair is not specifically mentioned. A woman's hair is a part of a woman's zeenat (beauty) and therefore is covered with the jilbaab.

What about the question I asked about how you regard Allah, as a father or a master, perhaps neither just God.

God does not have gender. He is unique and has always existed and will always exist. He has no beginning and has no end. We on the other hand have a beginning when our souls were created and we do not have an end as we shall live forever whether that is in paradise (janat) or hell fire (jahanum) depending on our actions.

On the authority of Abu Hurayrah (may Allah be pleased with him), who said that the Messenger of Allah (peace and blessings of Allah be upon him) said:

"Allah Almighty has said:
'The son of Adam denied Me and he had no right to do so. And he reviled Me and he had no right to do so. As for his denying Me, it is his saying: 'He will not remake me as He made me at first' (1) - and the initial creation [of him] is no easier for Me than remaking him. As for his reviling Me, it is his saying: 'Allah has taken to Himself a son,' while I am the One, the Everlasting Refuge. I begot not nor was I begotten, and there is none comparable to Me.'" Hadith Qudsi 2

Even if you did read texts literally "God the Father" ...

Jesus (peace be upon him) is referred to as the son of David (peace be upon him) in the NT. We don't read this verses literally but it can be read as a spiritual connection i.e. they were both on the path of Islam. They are of course connected genetically as well.

Yet you claimed there was no prejudice against homosexuality in the Qu'ran. Why is it not permitted then?

It is not permitted to indulge in homosexuality openly where there are 4 witnesses. What homosexuals (or indeed hetrosexuals) do in private is not for people to punish but for God to punish as He wishes.

On the authority of Anas (may Allah be pleased with him), who said: I heard the Messenger of Allah (peace and blessings of Allah be upon him) say:

"Allah the Almighty said:
'O son of Adam, so long as you call upon Me and ask of Me, I shall forgive you for what you have done, and I shall not mind. O son of Adam, were your sins to reach the clouds of the sky and were you then to ask forgiveness of Me, I would forgive you. O son of Adam, were you to come to Me with sins nearly as great as the earth and were you then to face Me, ascribing no partner to Me, I would bring you forgiveness nearly as great as it.'" Hadith Qudsi 34

reject the bigotry of Mohammed and those who wrote the hideous Hebrew tomes.

How about giving us some evidence?

033.057 Lo! those who malign Allah and His messenger, Allah hath cursed them in the world and the Hereafter, and hath prepared for them the doom of the disdained.

Here you repeat the same fallacy you posted before. I posted a link to statistics that show your assertion is incorrect. Your behaviour is typical of the religious who simply ignore the facts and repeat to their delusions.

I am entitled to my views much as you dislike it.

Again you exhibit your prejudice. This is entirely a private matter between the couple. I raised the issue because you stated (in your usual bigoted manner) that a man who could not support his wife should not marry. This is objectively sexually prejudiced.

There is no couple as you put it. A man can only marry when he has the means. Only then you can refer to them as a couple, not before.

Exactly as I suggested. You were brought up from birth with the concept that the Qu'ran has special significance whether you could read it or not. I knew this would be case because of your extreme deference to it.

My love and deference for the Qur'an, much as you may dislike it, is based on what it says by reflection not blindness.

016.044 With clear proofs and writings; and We have revealed unto thee the Remembrance that thou mayst explain to mankind that which hath been revealed for them, and that haply they may reflect.

Do they not consider the Qur'an (with care)? Had it been from other than God they would surely have found therein much discrepancy. 4:82

067.006 And for those who disbelieve in their Lord there is the doom of hell, a hapless journey's end!

067.007 When they are flung therein they hear its roaring as it boileth up,

067.008 As it would burst with rage. Whenever a (fresh) host is flung therein the wardens thereof ask them: Came there unto you no warner ?

067.009 They say: Yea, verily, a warner came unto us; but we denied and said: Allah hath naught revealed; ye are in naught but a great error.

067.010 And they say: Had we been wont to listen or have sense, we had not been among the dwellers in the flames.

067.011 So they acknowledge their sins; but far removed (from mercy) are the dwellers in the flames.

067.012 Lo! those who fear their Lord in secret, theirs will be forgiveness and a great reward.

109.006 Unto you your religion, and unto me my religion.

... it exposes the ridiculous nature of your faith for all to see.

In your opinion.

Happy Ramadhan to all Muslims. May this blessed month bring us closer to our Creator.

 

[Libre]

I'm an atheist.
I'm always open to modify my beliefs or just change my mind in the light of new information or discoveries.
So now, let me see.
It is said that God created man in his own image.
It is far more plausible that the reverse is true.
Nobody really KNOWS.
Nobody alive, anyway.
Let me ask a question.
If there is a God who created us, and the rest of the universe too, then why is everything so intricate? Why are there microscopic structures in our body?
Why do we have a pancreas, a heart, or any other organ?
We could just be filled with stuffing.
But we're not.
Every feature, every process has to work.
When they study it enough and figure out what and why, and understand the function, it all becomes clear.
Our heart pumps blood, but who needs blood?
We do because we're corporeal creatures - organisms - not "creations".
The blood performs a necessary function, which would be unnecessary if we were just a construction of a super-being.
Oh, I forgot you aren't supposed to question God's ways.
Well, seems to me he built a lot of incredibly complex stuff that with enough study can be understood and explained by science, when he could have simply breathed life into Adam as the Bible would have us believe. We could all be mannequins without any internal organs, now could't we? No we could not - because we're organisms. We have cells, mitochondria, DNA, and Isles of Langerhans to manufacture insulin - which would be unnecessary, of course, if we were a God's manifestation instead of sophisticated creatures that EVOLVED from simpler organisms.
The Biblical explanation of the universe was fine when there was no understanding of nature or physics, but now that we've had Newton and Darwin, Bernoulli and Pascal, Gauss and Tesla, Maxwell and Hertz, Freud and Einstein (et al), well, now we know a thing or two and the Biblical explanation is terribly insufficient to explain anything, whilst these incredible geniuses have explained - if not everything - then a whole hell of a lot. And if we were to just ignore all their discoveries and say - God made it all with a snap of the fingers - then I guess they lived for nothing.

 

[Brianwarnock]

Aziz

I asked about the covering of head and hair as I could not find it mentioned in qu'ran , you could not either infact saying that it was not specifically mentioned, the passages you quoted were those that I found and I have no argument with their general philosophy, but it is obvious that the covering of the face and hair is not ordered by the qu'ran, so even if the qu'ran was the word of God the decision to force women to cover themselves above the shoulders is by men.

Brian

 

[Brianwarnock]

On the subject of the man being the provider and that he should not marry unless he can provide, both of my daughters earn considerably more than their partners, one well qualified over twice as much, the others husband had to give up his job due to a disabling condition and now earns far less as a care worker involving long hours for a low wage. All are happy but presumably they should separate according to your laws.

Brian