Are you an atheist?

[Fifty2One]

I love the way atheists and agnostics are so hard line on their beliefs that they want to force other religions out of schools, public places, government institutions, etc.

 

[scott-atkinson]

I am surprised that religion has lasted as long as it has now that science has explained away most things that before were attributed to some kind of religious activity..

 

[Alc]

I love the way atheists and agnostics are so hard line on their beliefs that they want to force other religions out of schools, public places, government institutions, etc.

To someone who doesn't believe in gods, there is no distinction between them and any other fantastical creature, beyond the fact that noone bases government or school policy on what fairies, unicorns, giants, etc. think.

If you believed those with power over yours and your family's lives were basing their decisions - at least in part - on things that you were certain were not just untrue but were ridiculously so, would you not try to fight against it?

If someone says they are doing anything at all solely because some magical being does/doesn't want them to act in a particular way then unless you also believe in that magical being, you might be tempted to view it as dangerous. What if the being wants them to to the opposite tomorrow?

 

[ozzi]

But they don't keep religion out of our schools.

If they have a majority they can get away with it. It is up to atheists to educate enough people so that we are the majority and have them treated for their mental illness

Religion already has influence well beyond their churches. They don't need to debate atheists to legitimise their cause. They are well organised political lobbyists. In the UK they have places set aside for them in the House of Lords.

Then do something about it, instead of trying to convince people that religion is stupid (which will never work) push for places reserved for Atheists. Fight to keep intelligent design off the curriculum, get on your schools Parent, teacher and citizens group and fight to keep chaplains out of schools.

Moreover their attempts at debate are the most effective means expose the ridiculous nature of their doctrine. The faithful do more in attempted debate to demolish the credibility of their organisations than any atheist could hope to achieve. Read some of the posts by Aziz Rasul earlier in this thread and it will be clear that facts don't come into their thought processes at all.

As I said before, the primary target audience is not the religious but those not already hopelessly poisoned by doctrine.

Exactly. you think they are p1ssing into the wind and will get their shoes wet. the poison is in all of us already. we are all searching for the meaning of life(which as no meaning or purpose) , and religion targets people who want to believe, and they will over look any inconsistencies to find what they are looking for. facts don't come into it, you are wasting your breath.

I suspect you are in fact a religious apologist simply trying to shut down debate because you fear its effectiveness at undermining the foundations of religious beliefs which you actually support.

Not so, I consider myself a Militant Atheist. Any one attempting to preach to me has ten seconds before the Wrath of Me comes down on them. Until atheists stop being complacent and stand up for what they believe in and stand as a group, religion will win.

By all means start a thread on that subject rather than trying to discourage interactions on this one.

Valid point. I will leave you to debate with stones, while I do something more practical.

Bye ozzi

 

[Rabbie]

The poll is missing an option.


option: this concept is not worth discussing.

ozzi

If that is your view, Ozzi, then just ignore this thread and don't discuss it. As you have joined in the discussion you obviously think it is worth discussing.

 

[spikepl]

...
The Quran (19:22-33) has Jesus speaking as a baby in the crib.
...

Well, you never know ... what babies can do ... http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RztwddJku94

 

[Alc]

If that is your view, Ozzi, then just ignore this thread and don't discuss it. As you have joined in the discussion you obviously think it is worth discussing.

At some length, too. Rather like the people who precede lengthy statements with 'It goes without saying..'.

 

[stergio33]

To everybody:
You cannot prove God's existence!! You just believe in or not! But sometime, maybe in another life we will know!
To me, God exists for sure. This I was not taught in school or church, but through mistikism.

 

[aziz rasul]

stergio33 if you have read the whole thread you will see whether there is proof of God's (Allah in Arabic) existence.

 

[Galaxiom]

Despite the implicit claim, this thread contains no posts whatsoever that successfully explain anything as evidence for the existence of any gods.

In every attempt to demonstate the purported deity aziz rasul invariably reaches illogical conclusions and is incapable of comprehending this reality.

Those who seeketh religion are already losers. - Galaxiom

 

[aziz rasul]

Let people make their own mind up just as you have reached yours. What you regard as being illogical may be logical to others.

You will probably always remain a loser.

 

[Galaxiom]

Let people make their own mind up just as you have reached yours.

Then why don't you let people make their own mind instead of posting your opinion?

What you regard as being illogical may be logical to others.

Logic doesn't work like that. Logic is objective. Logic has a basis where each claim is built on foundations that can be traced to more than subjective opinion. Your postings that claim there is evidence for the existence of a god are not logic but opinion because the flaws in the chain of claims can be objectively demonstrated.

An example of unsubstantiated opinion is your claim that that polygyny is justified while polyandry is not is because there are so many more women in the world than men. I provided actual statistics demonstrating the basis of your claim was false.

Your reponse was that you were "entitled to your opinion". That is not only illogical but downright dishonest. Dishonesty always has been part and parcel of religion.

 

[Dick7Access]

QUOTE]
I laughed when I read this post, because many years ago I had to take a course in college that was called “Logic”. At the time I thought it was the most illogical course I had ever had. Did anybody else ever have a logic course that had “Apes and Nuts”, in it?

 

[Galaxiom]

Did anybody else ever have a logic course that had “Apes and Nuts”, in it?

No. But I would be curious how it was used to teach logic.

 

[Dick7Access]

No. But I would be curious how it was used to teach logic.

I will give it a try but that was over 45 years ago!!!
It started with if A = B and C= B and C = D then D = A
Then Apes = nuts
It seem like there was more to it, but that’s all I remember. I know the Apes and Nuts were in there somehow as the professor said even though we have a lot of fun with Apes and nuts none of your people will remember it by next year. He said he would give the first person that remembered it next year $10. I wrote it down and put it in my wallet. I ran into him and repeated the whole thing for him. He said very good, and walked off and never gave me my $10.

 

[aziz rasul]

Then why don't you let people make their own mind instead of posting your opinion?

That is illogical. I’m posting my own opinion and allowing others to express theirs. I’m not physically forcing others to believe nor would I want to. If I was you haven’t changed your opinion. God addresses people like you in the Qur’an:-


2.121 Those unto whom We have given the Scripture, who read it with the right reading, those believe in it. And whoso disbelieveth in it, those are they who are the losers.


3.149 O ye who believe! if ye obey those who disbelieve, they will make you turn back on your heels, and ye turn back as losers.


6.031 They indeed are losers who deny their meeting with Allah until, when the Hour cometh on them suddenly, they cry: Alas for us, that we neglected it! They bear upon their backs their burdens. Ah, evil is that which they bear!

6.032 Naught is the life of the world save a pastime and a spot. Better far is the abode of the Hereafter for those who keep their duty (to Allah). Have ye then no sense?


7.178 He whom Allah leadeth, he indeed is led aright, while he whom Allah sendeth astray - they indeed are losers.

7.179 Already have We urged unto hell many of the jinn and humankind, having

hearts wherewith they understand not, and having eyes wherewith they see not, and having ears wherewith they hear not. These are as the cattle - nay, but they are worse! These are the neglectful.


8.037 That Allah may separate the wicked from the good, The wicked will He place piece upon piece, and heap them all together, and consign them unto hell. Such verily are the losers.


10.095 And be not thou of those who deny the revelations of Allah, for then wert thou of the losers.

10.096 Lo! those for whom the word of thy Lord (concerning sinners) hath effect will not believe,

10.097 Though every token come unto them, till they see the painful doom.


There are many other verses which I will leave for a later time. As you can see God addresses people more than adequately concerning the disbelievers.

Logic doesn't work like that. Logic is objective. Logic has a basis where each claim is built on foundations that can be traced to more than subjective opinion.

But the opinion was not subjective. There was proper foundation to them but you failed to see it. As the Qur’an says:-


6.039 Those who deny Our revelations are deaf and dumb in darkness. Whom

Allah will sendeth astray, and whom He will He placeth on a straight path.


17.097 And he whom Allah guideth, he is led aright; while, as for him whom He sendeth astray, for them thou wilt find no protecting friends beside Him, and We shall assemble them on the Day of Resurrection on their faces, blind, dumb and deaf; their habitation will be hell; whenever it abateth, We increase the flame for them.


The example you quoted regarding polygamy and polyandry came from both the Qur’an, Hadith and the opinion of the scholars. There are two reasons why Muslim men can have more than 1 wife.


At the time of Muhammad (peace and blessings of Allah be upon him) there was indeed more women than men but also some women were not desirable for marriage as they had little or no wealth and/or status. Hence there was a danger that some of these women would indulge in prostitution and therefore corrupt society. Hence it was encouraged that men could marry more than one women (providing they qualified) to prevent such corruption. An example of this was when Jaweriya (May Allah be pleased with her) lost her husband in the battle of Uhud and approached Muhammad (peace and blessings of Allah be upon him) for marriage. In some places there are more women to men, which means both issues apply.


You do not agree with anything I say so therefore it was logical to say that you have your own opinion. We agree to disagree. As you are not a believer, your opinion will be radically different to those who do believe. That is a natural consequence between believers and disbelievers.

Your reponse was that you were "entitled to your opinion". That is not only illogical but downright dishonest. Dishonesty always has been part and parcel of religion.

God addresses dishonesty in the following Qur’anic passages:-


16.104 Lo! those who disbelieve the revelations of Allah, Allah guideth them not and theirs will be a painful doom.

16.105 Only they invent falsehood who believe not Allah's revelations, and (only) they are the liars.

16.106 Whoso disbelieveth in Allah after his belief - save him who is forced thereto and whose heart is still content with the Faith - but whoso findeth ease in disbelief: On them is wrath from Allah. Theirs will be an awful doom.

16.107 That is because they have chosen the life of the world rather than the Hereafter, and because Allah guideth not the disbelieving folk.

16.108 Such are they whose hearts and ears and eyes Allah hath sealed. And such are the heedless.

16.109 Assuredly in the Hereafter they are the losers.


23.090 Nay, but We have brought them the Truth, and lo! they are liars.

Apes = nuts

Illogical.

 

[scott-atkinson]

I had enough trouble with one wife...!!!!!

 

[Brianwarnock]

Once again Aziz attempts to convince us of his argument by a surfeit of quotes from the Qu'ran. This one

7.178 He whom Allah leadeth, he indeed is led aright, while he whom Allah sendeth astray - they indeed are losers.

States that Allah sends people astray, why? What is the purpose behind Allah sending people astray, fuel for the fires of hell?

Brian

 

[Brianwarnock]

I had enough trouble with one wife...!!!!!

I noted the past tense, sad.

I think that women are a fabulous species, vastly superior to the male in almost all fields of endeavour , which is why religion, man's invention, attempts to keep them down, in the case of Islam by denying them education and opportunity.
If that is only the fanatics then when are the others going to speak up and loudly condemn them?

Brian

 

[Galaxiom]

I think that women are a fabulous species, vastly superior to the male in almost all fields of endeavour , which is why religion, man's invention, attempts to keep them down, in the case of Islam by denying them education and opportunity.

I wouldn't want to see a world where women didn't have the same opportunities as men. Societies where women are downtrodden are invariably backwards and unpleasant.

Despite claims by muslim men that women are not treated as second class citizens under Islam threir maltreatment is abundantly clear to any objective observer.

Aziz shows us clearly where women stand in Islam.

At the time of Muhammad (peace and blessings of Allah be upon him) there was indeed more women than men but also some women were not desirable for marriage as they had little or no wealth and/or status. Hence there was a danger that some of these women would indulge in prostitution and therefore corrupt society. Hence it was encouraged that men could marry more than one women (providing they qualified) to prevent such corruption.

It isn't just Islam though. The status afforded to women is a blight on all the Abrahamic faiths.

This is because this deplorable philosophy is dreamed up by ancient, ignorant misogynists who arrogantly believed their every thought was an inspired truth. Fundamentally their outlook is naked fascism where an oligarchy decrees every aspect of the lives of all right down to their private lives and assigns brutal punishment to those who fail to comply.

This is no better evident than in the Armageddon prophecy which is held dear by devotees of all branches of the Abrahamic faiths. Their cherished vision is a glorious future where their God murders most of the people on earth leaving only the "true believers". The eager anticipation of the "end days" is one of the reasons so many believers endeavour to initiate religious conflict on a global scale.

Abrahamism is obsessed with death. Hardly surprising from a faith whose founding event happened when a psychopath about to murder his son experienced a brief moment of sanity and decided that a god did not require him to do it.

Modern medicine tells us that these so called prophets are no more special than people who are experiencing an epileptic seizure of the temporal lobes of the brain. This is known to stimulate hyperreligious hallucinations.