Are you an atheist?

[Galaxiom]

As a layperson (in astrophysics and cosmology at any rate) I would have thought there is more to know about stars than just their distance and brightness.

Stars sport the most common reactions in the Universe. The progress of these reactions is governed by the pressure and temperature of the core and ultimately the mass of the star. Scientists know what the future holds for a star by measuring it.

Millions of stars have been observed and it is very rare for astronomers to find something glowing in the distance that cannot be quickly recognised as one phase or another of a star's life or death.

Theoretical knowledge and actual, provable knowledge are two distinctly different things.

Well they are the same for General Relativity and Quantum Mechanics which together explain the evolution of the Universe from when it was much smaller than a single atom.

Moreover, both of these theories were developed well ahead of their subsequent demonstration and application.

Lastly, Galaxion, I think Socrate's quote - which I have made my signature on this forum, bears some reflection. A little more of THAT attitude, and a little less OH, I HAVE ALL THIS FIGURED OUT would go a long way.

I am quite confident that Socrates never adopted your ridiculous posturing and the personal blasting of those who offered insight of the subject in any discussion regardless of whether he agreed with the position or not..

 

[Old Man Devin]

But the universe isn't actually infinite - now is it?
It has a calculated size, a calculated age, and and calculated amount of mass. As far as infinite universes - that one really leaves me in the stardust, sorry to say. There are a vast number of subjects I have no significant knowledge of, nor understanding of, including the concept of infinite alternate universes. But the known universe - the one we live in, that is the one to which I refer.
I recently read a discussion about the typing chimp.
The old parable is that a chimp, given an infinite amount of time, or an infinite number of chimps on infinite typewriters, will type every play Shakespeare wrote, or even every book ever written, etc.
In this discussion, they examined the actual probabilities of a chimp randomly hitting keys, and typing just the FIRST LINE of Hamlet. To arrive at even a faint likelyhood of it would take - I don't know - billions of times longer than the universe has existed or is predicted to exist.
Conclusion: It ain't gonna happen.
I guess you could make the point that you are making - that in an infinite amount of time, anything that COULD happen WILL happen.
It's convenient to say so, because it really doesn't involve any further thinking. But the reality is, in our universe (and not an infinite number of hypothetical alternate universes) there are a fixed number of atoms, a certain number of years, and after all there is a finite boundary to it all. If not, well then, anything could happen - kangaroos could jump and reach moon, the past could be changed and JFK would still be alive, Elvis would still be in the building, cockroaches could sing opera, and politicians could tell the truth. But we all know, none of those things could ever actually happen.

My responses:
The Universe may be infinite. The evidence is not complete enough to say, but I think it is currently leaning towards an infinite Universe. The calculated size etc. is only the Observable Universe, a small area of the Universe with Earth at the center. We can't see outside it because the light from outside can't reach us (space expanding faster than the rate at which it approaches us, pushing it back). But the rest of the Universe is assumed to be similar to our section, broadly.

The infinite universes idea is simply: in the space outside the universe, sometimes called the 'Quantum Foam', universes are created and destroyed constantly, but a lucky new are not destroyed immediately after creation and expand to become fully blown universes. Sometimes the conditions of expansion happen to allow complex matter to form inside them. Most of the time it doesn't, and the universe is just full of radiation or solid opaque particle blobs.

It does sound somewhat crazy, but it is all a consequence of quantum physics (I did a Masters degree in this).

The resultant argument is that we are in just one of the many expanded universes that is lucky enough to have conditions favourable to complex structures.

I'm not sure what the argument of your final points are. It is actually true that anything can happen. Somewhere in the Universe there can be a planet exactly the same as ours in every way, except JFK is alive. There is no physical reason why that could not happen, as fantastical as it sounds. 100% natural processes could create such a thing, with no supernatural requirements.

Another point to consider is this. Even if the formation of life on a planet is a very rare event (which is debatable in itself), the probability is not zero. We are on a planet where it did happen. You cannot say that just because it would need longer than the age of universe to be 100% likely to happen on a given planet, that there is any reason to believe it is strange that it happened before then. It's pure chance. We're lucky to exist. 'Life' on the vast majority of planets dies out quickly.

What I'm saying it that just because it is unlikely to happen naturally, that doesn't mean we need to assume some extra-universal being caused it to happen. Simply because the probability was not zero, it was bound to happen somewhere, at some time, in some universe. Who knows how many failed universes came before us? All we know is that eventually, all these chance events happened in a particular order, leading to us being here today, as they inevitably would.

Phew, long post...

 

[Brianwarnock]

The theist and the atheist were arguing.
The theist said , "you are like ablind man in a dark room searching for a black cat that is not there".
The atheist replied, " we are very similar, but you think that you have found the cat".

Brian

 

[Old Man Devin]

The theist and the atheist were arguing.
The theist said , "you are like ablind man in a dark room searching for a black cat that is not there".
The atheist replied, " we are very similar, but you think that you have found the cat".

Brian

But surely to a blind man it doesn't matter if the room is dark?

 

[Libre]

I am quite confident that Socrates never adopted your ridiculous posturing and the personal blasting of those who offered insight of the subject in any discussion regardless of whether he agreed with the position or not..

It's reaffirming to me that you fail to see the irony in emplying the disparaging phrase "ridiculous posturing", and in the same sentence, the indignant and self-rightous "personal blasting of those who offered insight", without seeing that both these phrases reflect back on yourself.

As far as your overconfidence in you knowledge of the mind of Socretes (as in other matters):

From Plato's Apology, where Plato quotes Socrates.

τούτου μὲν τοῦ ἀνθρώπου ἐγὼ σοφώτερός εἰμι· κινδυνεύει μὲν γὰρ ἡμῶν οὐδέτερος οὐδὲν καλὸν κἀγαθὸν εἰδέναι, ἀλλ᾽ οὗτος μὲν οἴεταί τι εἰδέναι οὐκ εἰδώς, ἐγὼ δέ, ὥσπερ οὖν οὐκ οἶδα, οὐδὲ οἴομαι· ἔοικα γοῦν τούτου γε σμικρῷ τινι αὐτῷ τούτῳ σοφώτερος εἶναι, ὅτι ἃ μὴ οἶδα οὐδὲ οἴομαι εἰδέναι.
​

For those of us who don't know everything and unlike Galaxiom may need a translation:

I am wiser than this man, for neither of us appears to know anything great and good; but he fancies he knows something, although he knows nothing; whereas I, as I do not know anything, so I do not fancy I do. In this trifling particular, then, I appear to be wiser than he, because I do not fancy I know what I do not know.
​

I'm frankly growing weary of this thread. It has taken up much of my time and I fear I've accomplished nothing. I don't have an eternity, and there is still so much to learn.

Edit:
Old Man Devlin, Bladerunner and others - I would continue to debate this with you - at least you're respectful of other's positions and don't adopt such a supercilious tone - but the concept of infinite universes - I just can't grasp it - how science embraces it, I just don't get. I'm a mechanical design engineer, and fluent in the the language of GD&T (Geometric Dimensioning and Tolerancing), but as far as distant galaxies and alternate universes in other dimensions, I'm as Socretes - I know nothing.

 

[Mihail]

LOL, Brian. Super.

 

[dan-cat]

Who knows how many failed universes came before us? All we know is that eventually, all these chance events happened in a particular order, leading to us being here today, as they inevitably would.

Here is a question that scrambles my noodle. In order for there to be previous "failed universes" there must be some form of recursive process or at the very least a concept of incrementation.

How can these concepts simultaneously

a) Exist outside of the group of universes that can be either failed or successful

and

b) Able to be perceived by man within a single one of those successful universes.

 

[nanscombe]

The Bible contains a cunning paragraph for people who are having their faith challenged.

Matthew 5:11

Blessed are you when people insult you, persecute you and falsely say all kinds of evil against you because of me.

 

[Dick7Access]

It' I know nothing.

Your signature reminds me of Sgt. Shutz(sic) Do you know who he was?

 

[Brianwarnock]

@Bladerunner

Did you think being a Christian was going to be easy? While I don't agree with you 100% I appreciate your faith.

If the author had a problem with the direction this thread, he or she would have pulled the plug 1,000 posts ago.
The consent mocking is a tactic. The same people will point out punctuation as a way to derail the conversation it's a bulling technique.

Lastly you know your in for a fight when the left contently presents theory as fact. They have little faith in their own convictions. Keep up the fight.

This sums up the left. If you can't dazzle them with brilliance, baffle them with bullshit.
W. C. Fields

Should that be constant mocking and you're in for a fight.?!!

On a serious note why do you assume atheists are lefties, I know that in the States the biggest bible thumpers a right wing gun carrying red necks but that is just part of America's fascinating contradictions, over here religious belief and political leaning are not tied.

Brian

 

[Rabbie]

My responses:
The Universe may be infinite. The evidence is not complete enough to say, but I think it is currently leaning towards an infinite Universe. The calculated size etc. is only the Observable Universe, a small area of the Universe with Earth at the center. We can't see outside it because the light from outside can't reach us (space expanding faster than the rate at which it approaches us, pushing it back). But the rest of the Universe is assumed to be similar to our section, broadly.

The infinite universes idea is simply: in the space outside the universe, sometimes called the 'Quantum Foam', universes are created and destroyed constantly, but a lucky new are not destroyed immediately after creation and expand to become fully blown universes. Sometimes the conditions of expansion happen to allow complex matter to form inside them. Most of the time it doesn't, and the universe is just full of radiation or solid opaque particle blobs.

It does sound somewhat crazy, but it is all a consequence of quantum physics (I did a Masters degree in this).

The resultant argument is that we are in just one of the many expanded universes that is lucky enough to have conditions favourable to complex structures.

I'm not sure what the argument of your final points are. It is actually true that anything can happen. Somewhere in the Universe there can be a planet exactly the same as ours in every way, except JFK is alive. There is no physical reason why that could not happen, as fantastical as it sounds. 100% natural processes could create such a thing, with no supernatural requirements.

Another point to consider is this. Even if the formation of life on a planet is a very rare event (which is debatable in itself), the probability is not zero. We are on a planet where it did happen. You cannot say that just because it would need longer than the age of universe to be 100% likely to happen on a given planet, that there is any reason to believe it is strange that it happened before then. It's pure chance. We're lucky to exist. 'Life' on the vast majority of planets dies out quickly.

What I'm saying it that just because it is unlikely to happen naturally, that doesn't mean we need to assume some extra-universal being caused it to happen. Simply because the probability was not zero, it was bound to happen somewhere, at some time, in some universe. Who knows how many failed universes came before us? All we know is that eventually, all these chance events happened in a particular order, leading to us being here today, as they inevitably would.

Phew, long post...

If the universe is truly infinite then there exist an infinite number of galaxies and among those galaxies there will be an infinite number of solar systems identical to ours. These solar systems will each contain a planet identical to Earth with people identical to us some of them contributing to a thread on a forum identical to this. There would also be an infinite number of earths differing from ours in only small ways.

It's for reasons like this that I do not believe the universe is infinite - it is just very very large.

 

[Dick7Access]

Should that be constant mocking and you're in for a fight.?!!

On a serious note why do you assume atheists are lefties, I know that in the States the biggest bible thumpers a right wing gun carrying red necks but that is just part of America's fascinating contradictions, over here religious belief and political leaning are not tied.

Brian

We certainly have to be careful not to use a wide brush. That being said, there certainly something to be said for everyday lives experience. My high amount of traveling and intercourse with a great cross section of the population in US and a few others countries, not to mention blogs, forums, emails, I have found that a high percentage of the time the person who is an atheist, agnostics, or non-practicing person of religion is also a liberal in there politics. I have no problem with their position, they are not my enemy personally, but when it come to the ballot box I will fight to defeat what I think is harmful to me my family, my country. I can do no less.

 

[Dick7Access]

I just finished reading Dawkins "The God Delusion", in

I have found this servery very interesting. How do you start a servery? How does it keep tract, or did you have to do it?
DS

 

[Libre]

Your signature reminds me of Sgt. Shutz(sic) Do you know who he was?

I see NOTHING!!!!
You know Hogan (Bob Crane) was murdered under very mysterious circumstances.
And Pete Seeger died today.
The past is, well, in the past. And in many ways - I miss it - although at the time I didn't think I would.

 

[Dick7Access]

I see NOTHING!!!!
You know Hogan (Bob Crane) was murdered under very mysterious circumstances.
And Pete Seeger died today.
The past is, well, in the past. And in many ways - I miss it - although at the time I didn't think I would.

Yes, I remember reading about Crane, but don't remember the details. Which character was Pete S.? I don't remember that either

 

[Mihail]

If the universe is truly infinite then there exist an infinite number of galaxies and among those galaxies there will be an infinite number of solar systems identical to ours. These solar systems will each contain a planet identical to Earth with people identical to us some of them contributing to a thread on a forum identical to this. There would also be an infinite number of earths differing from ours in only small ways.

It's for reasons like this that I do not believe the universe is infinite - it is just very very large.

Either this is a plagiarism (#3658) either we think almost identically.
"Almost" because I can't see any inconvenience to think that the Universe IS infinite.

 

[Rabbie]

Either this is a plagiarism (#3658) either we think almost identically.
"Almost" because I can't see any inconvenience to think that the Universe IS infinite.

Not Plagiarism - I missed your post. At least we seem to agree on something

 

[Brianwarnock]

Dick I cannot think of anything in your post that I disagree with, but my point was that in my experience there is no strong relationship between religious belief and political leaning.

Perhaps I need to research U.S. liberalism to see what the complaint against them is, over here the Liberal party want to give our country away to the EU. But so do the other two main parties.

Brian

 

[Brianwarnock]

Dick Pete Seeger was a protest folk singer.

Brian

 

[Vassago]

So what will we find at the edge of the universe? Are there other universes or is it just an end? Emptiness? No atoms, but nothing?