Are you an atheist? (3 Viewers)

[amberkei]

I have met many atheists who disbelieve with the same religious fervor that you see in believers. For many, it seems to be the religion that replaced the one with which they were raised.

I think it's always necessary, however, to separate religion and spirituality. Religion is characterized by a set of acts and rituals. You can belong to a religion and have absolutely no faith.

 

[Rabbie]

I have met many atheists who disbelieve with the same religious fervor that you see in believers. For many, it seems to be the religion that replaced the one with which they were raised.

I think it's always necessary, however, to separate religion and spirituality. Religion is characterized by a set of acts and rituals. You can belong to a religion and have absolutely no faith.

Very true there are some like that.

I have already defined what I mean by atheism. Other people may feel a need to convince others that religion is a fraud. I believe that it is up to individuals to make their own decisions especially with regards to their beliefs and moral code.

 

[Dick7Access]

I have met many atheists who disbelieve with the same religious fervor that you see in believers. For many, it seems to be the religion that replaced the one with which they were raised.

I think it's always necessary, however, to separate religion and spirituality. Religion is characterized by a set of acts and rituals. You can belong to a religion and have absolutely no faith.

Right on, amen, you must have visited some of the churches I have been to.

 

[amberkei]

Other people may feel a need to convince others that religion is a fraud. I believe that it is up to individuals to make their own decisions especially with regards to their beliefs and moral code.

I'm (more or less) Wiccan. The entirety of that religion can essentially be boiled down to "It's all good." (An it harm ye none, do what thou wilt.)

 

[The_Doc_Man]

I know I cannot persuade anyone to change their minds. As an atheist, I can only live within myself. However, reading Bladerunner's recent emotional post, I can certainly find other interpretations and thoughts that do not lead to the conclusion of God's existence.

The question is asked: "Why does xxx happen? How can God allow it? What is God's purpose?" The response is usually that "we are not meant to know the mind of God." However, to an atheist with somewhat more of a Zen approach, the underlying answer is VERY simple. "Stuff happens." You don't need a purpose if things happen without some divine purpose. I.e. random events converge randomly. We are conditioned by evolution to seek patterns because that is a survival trait. When we learn the patterns of our competing predators, we can defeat them. But the problem with being conditioned to look for patterns is that then you look for patterns that aren't there.

This will sound like a diversion, but it isn't. In college I had to make a point that using linear regression always gives you the best possible line through a bunch of points. But too many researchers publish junk papers because they forget that math ALWAYS gives you an answer. You can shoot a shotgun with no choke at a sheet of graph paper, then input the coordinates of each pellet hit to your linear regression. You will STILL get a straight line even though a shotgun dispersion pattern is pretty much random if the barrel isn't warped. You will still compute a line where there wasn't one to be found. It is the nature of the math.

Back to the discussion at hand - if we are internally conditioned to find patterns, we ARE going to find a pattern. There is no guarantee that it is real, though. Many folks look for a pattern in life. They look for reasons why something happens. But if you take a more Zen approach, you realize a couple of things. First, asking "WHY" is the wrong question. If this is truly a non-causal universe (and quantum mechanics says it is non-causal in nature) then frequently there IS no WHY to be determined. There IS no pattern to discover in the random events of life.

Second, your better question is usually of the form: OK, this thing/event/condition exists. So... what am I going to do about/with/for it? Ask WHY if and only if it helps you to decide what to do.

So, with no disrespect intended to Bladerunner and other believers - I can see sad moments, violence, painful deaths, and senseless tragedies without seeking a pattern in the supernatural context. The idea is hard for many folks to accept - but we are here because we are here, not because some supernatural effect put us here or planted our seeds or whatever. Things happen because they happen, not because of some divine or demonic vengeance. People get away with doing unkind or unpleasant things because nobody stops them, not because some ethereal father figure is waiting in the wings to punish them for transgressions in this life.

The search for first cause - or any "higher cause" - is doomed in a non-causal universe. The trick is to recognize that whatever bad thing happens to you is either because you made enemies here on Earth or you were careless enough to be your own worst enemy (I fall into that category) or you got unlucky. Remember, the phrase "We are not meant to know the mind of God" translates to "We don't know and we don't think we will ever know why stuff happens. Maybe there isn't a reason."

I understand that having a benevolent father figure firmly ensconced in your mind may offer comfort. If so, go for it. For me, it is not about going to Heaven because I don't think that place exists. Nor does Hell, for that matter. It isn't the destination that you should seek to enjoy. It is the journey - life itself - that should be cherished and respected. Does this make me a secular humanist? Don't know and don't care, because labels are just someone's way to be dismissive of someone else with whom they disagree.

Have a good evening, one and all.

 

[Dick7Access]

I know I cannot persuade anyone to change their minds. As an atheist, I can only live within myself. However, reading Bladerunner's recent emotional post, I can certainly find other interpretations and thoughts that do not lead to the conclusion of God's existence.

The question is asked: "Why does xxx happen? How can God allow it? What is God's purpose?" The response is usually that "we are not meant to know the mind of God." However, to an atheist with somewhat more of a Zen approach, the underlying answer is VERY simple. "Stuff happens." You don't need a purpose if things happen without some divine purpose. I.e. random events converge randomly. We are conditioned by evolution to seek patterns because that is a survival trait. When we learn the patterns of our competing predators, we can defeat them. But the problem with being conditioned to look for patterns is that then you look for patterns that aren't there.

This will sound like a diversion, but it isn't. In college I had to make a point that using linear regression always gives you the best possible line through a bunch of points. But too many researchers publish junk papers because they forget that math ALWAYS gives you an answer. You can shoot a shotgun with no choke at a sheet of graph paper, then input the coordinates of each pellet hit to your linear regression. You will STILL get a straight line even though a shotgun dispersion pattern is pretty much random if the barrel isn't warped. You will still compute a line where there wasn't one to be found. It is the nature of the math.

Back to the discussion at hand - if we are internally conditioned to find patterns, we ARE going to find a pattern. There is no guarantee that it is real, though. Many folks look for a pattern in life. They look for reasons why something happens. But if you take a more Zen approach, you realize a couple of things. First, asking "WHY" is the wrong question. If this is truly a non-causal universe (and quantum mechanics says it is non-causal in nature) then frequently there IS no WHY to be determined. There IS no pattern to discover in the random events of life.

Second, your better question is usually of the form: OK, this thing/event/condition exists. So... what am I going to do about/with/for it? Ask WHY if and only if it helps you to decide what to do.

So, with no disrespect intended to Bladerunner and other believers - I can see sad moments, violence, painful deaths, and senseless tragedies without seeking a pattern in the supernatural context. The idea is hard for many folks to accept - but we are here because we are here, not because some supernatural effect put us here or planted our seeds or whatever. Things happen because they happen, not because of some divine or demonic vengeance. People get away with doing unkind or unpleasant things because nobody stops them, not because some ethereal father figure is waiting in the wings to punish them for transgressions in this life.

The search for first cause - or any "higher cause" - is doomed in a non-causal universe. The trick is to recognize that whatever bad thing happens to you is either because you made enemies here on Earth or you were careless enough to be your own worst enemy (I fall into that category) or you got unlucky. Remember, the phrase "We are not meant to know the mind of God" translates to "We don't know and we don't think we will ever know why stuff happens. Maybe there isn't a reason."

I understand that having a benevolent father figure firmly ensconced in your mind may offer comfort. If so, go for it. For me, it is not about going to Heaven because I don't think that place exists. Nor does Hell, for that matter. It isn't the destination that you should seek to enjoy. It is the journey - life itself - that should be cherished and respected. Does this make me a secular humanist? Don't know and don't care, because labels are just someone's way to be dismissive of someone else with whom they disagree.



Have a good evening, one and all.

I agree wholly. There was a time when was a not believing christian, and a time when I was an agnostic, I am now a believing Christian and a preacher. The journey as a christian is by far the most rewarding. My ministry takes me around many Christian and lots of agnostic and just a few atheist. The greatest percentage of peoplle on a great journey are believing Christians. Very few agnostic I meet claim to haveing a good journey, some do. I hardly meet an atheists that's not on a bad trip.(pun intended)

 

[Dick7Access]

I'm not asking for an argument, I'm asking what form does a soul take, and what is heaven, we have been told what happens when we go to hell but not heaven. It seems to be a simple question. I'm not going to argue or denigrate you, but I know you hope to be in paradise with your God, but what happens there, how will you spend eternity?

Brian

The Bible speaks way more about hell than it does about Heaven.
IMO it’s probable that most people don’t need much incentive to want Heaven.
This is not meant to be inclusive, but it is the best I can do for now as in a few days I am having surgery, and then I head to Biloxi, MS
It is a place of rest Heb 4:3 to 11
We will have a mansion to live in John 14:1 to 3
We will have incorruptible bodies. 1 cort. 15 51: to 54
Most of all, our new bodies will not have pain. Rev. 21:4

 

[Brianwarnock]

Thank you for replying even tho I still have questions.

Modern cataract surgery is very successful and a "simple " outpatient operation, not like in my day 30+ years ago, but nonetheless no surgery is without its risks and I would like to wish you well.

Brian

 

[Dick7Access]

Thank you for replying even tho I still have questions.

Modern cataract surgery is very successful and a "simple " outpatient operation, not like in my day 30+ years ago, but nonetheless no surgery is without its risks and I would like to wish you well.

Brian

Thanks for the well wishes. 30 years ago did they lay you up in the hospital for any days?

 

[Brianwarnock]

I was fortunate , I found by accident a Chinese optometrist who was doing the forerunner of the current operation, I only had to stay in 2 days mainly due to having a general anaesthetic.
I had to have this done privately which was a strain on the family finances at the time, as the op was not available on the NHS and the old op was very risky for me due to the elongation of my eyeballs.

Brian

 

[Dick7Access]

I was fortunate , I found by accident a Chinese optometrist who was doing the forerunner of the current operation, I only had to stay in 2 days mainly due to having a general anaesthetic.
I had to have this done privately which was a strain on the family finances at the time, as the op was not available on the NHS and the old op was very risky for me due to the elongation of my eyeballs.

Brian

That's what I though. I had heard that back then they kept you in a few days. On the left eye I went in to a clinic at 7:30 am and was out by 10:00 am. I needed a driver, to take me home, but was able to drive the next day, but had to wear sun glasses. My Ti-care for Life covered everything except an elective eye test. That cost me $290.00, but I could have opt not to have it. Many told me it was a rip off, but for a few bucks and concerning my eyes I wasn't taking a chance. I almost got out of the Navy twice, but the though of the medical insurance kept me in. It sure is paying off today. Two years ago when my wife fell in the bathroom and shattered her leg the medical helicopter ride cost $35,000. I paid nothing. The two times I almost got out was because I was being a wimp. Big bad SeaBee, but I am afraid of snakes.

 

[tehNellie]

Blimey, this thread has been going all this time and I never once took part in it?

I'm frankly amazed that 16% say that they're atheist and not even conclusive proof of a divine being would change their mind. I'm atheist simply because the best evidence points to there not being a divine being.

I've got no real problem with people being religious in and of itself and one of my hobbies is travelling the world exploring dusty temples and churches but while I can appreciate the architecture, art and, to a degree, inspiration the ultimate reason does baffle me and I wouldn't want to live somewhere that dictated that I had to believe a certain thing, whether it's ISIS, the Vatican or the USA.

I know individuals of many faiths who are the epitome of what the faith is supposed to represent but I still find it very hard to believe that Asif will go to heaven but Graham will got to hell because Graham backed the wrong franchise or vice versa. If I'm wrong and I'm condemned off the back of the same Being deciding to be aloof for my lifetime then, by accident, I think I was probably right. It had my entire lifetime to make its displeasure known but decided not to; yet that's my fault! Come on, I'm both Married and have sisters, give me a break.

Likewise an oft raised "gotcha" especially from American Christian shills is "If you don't believe in God how can you live a moral lifestyle?" My response to that has always been that it doesn't take the threat of divine retribution hanging over me to prevent me being an arsehole to other people. I choose to try not to be a dick because that is who I am not because I think some divine being will punish me later.

 

[Bladerunner]

Blimey, this thread has been going all this time and I never once took part in it?

I'm frankly amazed that 16% say that they're atheist and not even conclusive proof of a divine being would change their mind.

I'm atheist simply because the best evidence points to there not being a divine being.

And where pray tell does this evidence point to?Unlike you I was part of this thread from sometime back and To date I have heard no evidence that there is no GOD! OH and Jesus was real , yes he lived and has been proven through historical records that are not from the Bible.

I've got no real problem with people being religious in and of itself and one of my hobbies is travelling the world exploring dusty temples and churches but while I can appreciate the architecture, art and, to a degree, inspiration the ultimate reason does baffle me and

I wouldn't want to live somewhere that dictated that I had to believe a certain thing, whether it's ISIS, the Vatican or the USA.

The Vatican or the USA do not dictate that you have to believe in a christian religion or any religion for that matter of fact. However, ISIS (Muslims) do dictate how your are to believe and they are out to conquer the whole world to prove it.

I know individuals of many faiths who are the epitome of what the faith is supposed to represent but

I still find it very hard to believe that Asif will go to heaven but Graham will got to hell because Graham backed the wrong franchise or vice versa.

The only way to Heaven is through Jesus Christ!. Think of it as someone that does not like you, chastises you, mocks you and yes even hates you. Are you going to offer them a seat at your table when things get hard?????

If I'm wrong and I'm condemned off the back of the same Being deciding to be aloof for my lifetime then, by accident, I think I was probably right. It had my entire lifetime to make its displeasure known but decided not to; yet that's my fault! Come on, I'm both Married and have sisters, give me a break.

You final fate is up to you and only you!

Likewise an oft raised "gotcha" especially from American Christian shills is "If you don't believe in God how can you live a moral lifestyle?" My response to that has always been that it doesn't take the threat of divine retribution hanging over me to prevent me being an arsehole to other people. I choose to try not to be a dick because that is who I am not because I think some divine being will punish me later.

What is Morality and where does it come from?

just being good to people will only get you the appreciation of the people you helped or were good to. It will not get you into heaven!

 

[tehNellie]

Bladerunner, the formatting has gone a little wrong somewhere, but I'll do my best.

You're right there is no evidence against a god, there's none for one that I can see either, especially when there are several apparently vying for our attention, some even apparently fighting amongst themselves.

Jesus as a historical figure is still a matter for some debate. I'm convinced he existed as a person regardless of what "lefties" or "liebruls" say.

The vatican and the USA absolutely "dictate" how things will be done. US polls suggest that general opinion holds atheists lower than child rapists. really? Do I really need to delve any deeper than now into the catholic church?

The only way to Heaven is through Jesus Christ!. Think of it as someone that does not like you, chastises you, mocks you and yes even hates you. Are you going to offer them a seat at your table when things get hard?????

I might, a lot of "Christians" won't nor will people of other faiths. I like Jesus, I don't see him in many christian "churches" though I do in a lot of people.

just being good to people will only get you the appreciation of the people you helped or were good to. It will not get you into heaven!

It's not for you to judge ultimately is it?
And here is where I have a problem; "your" god is an arsehole and one that I want nothing to do with. It's a god of narrow minded spite, anger and persecution. Where's the god of Jesus or Mohammed?

 

[tehNellie]

just being good to people will only get you the appreciation of the people you helped or were good to. It will not get you into heaven!

What's the net benefit to your God?

Why does it care what I do?

What if I don't care about its threats because I like that one over there? what If I try it and don't like it? Free market religion, surely america couldn't ask any less? take the islam challenge. 9/10 prefer islam but they keep going christian, with a side order of Isreal. go figure..

 

[Dick7Access]

Bladerunner, the formatting has gone a little wrong somewhere, but I'll do my best.

You're right there is no evidence against a god, there's none for one that I can see either, especially when there are several apparently vying for our attention, some even apparently fighting amongst themselves.

Jesus as a historical figure is still a matter for some debate. I'm convinced he existed as a person regardless of what "lefties" or "liebruls" say.

The vatican and the USA absolutely "dictate" how things will be done. US polls suggest that general opinion holds atheists lower than child rapists. really? Do I really need to delve any deeper than now into the catholic church?


I might, a lot of "Christians" won't nor will people of other faiths. I like Jesus, I don't see him in many christian "churches" though I do in a lot of people.


It's not for you to judge ultimately is it?
And here is where I have a problem; "your" god is an arsehole and one that I want nothing to do with. It's a god of narrow minded spite, anger and persecution. Where's the god of Jesus or Mohammed?

If your right, I will never know. If I am right you will know

 

[nanscombe]

...
I'm frankly amazed that 16% say that they're atheist and not even conclusive proof of a divine being would change their mind. I'm atheist simply because the best evidence points to there not being a divine being.
...

There may well be conclusive proof of the existence of an advanced being, who could exhibit godlike powers, but that wouldn't mean they were a god.

Some events from the Bible could now be seen as routine medical achievements but were considered as miraculous to people two thousand years ago, it doesn't make doctors into gods.

 

[Bladerunner]

White Europeans were thought to be Gods when they descended from the sky's in silver birds. Same with the Spanish. We could be 180 degrees off in our belief in God(s).

Yes and how old is man? How old is the universe as we know it today?

we are talking about one creator who created all things and gave his accounting of the actual creation in writing to Moses back about 3-4000 years ago.

And yes it is fair to say we have had alien visitors from the stars. With a billion planets in our own galaxy, we are not the only ones and we are not the oldest.

Unfortunately for some, especially the higher educated who are so arrogant these days that they know it all and have all the answers. Therefore they scoff at those that would pray to a unseen deity and even try to destroy those places where these apparently ignorant people meet. They ignore all the warnings of the last days and they can find no refuge in the fact the Son of God, a human man walked among us not 2000 year ago. For these people I pity, because they have the knowledge to seek out the truth yet hide the truth in meaningless words and phrases meant to destroy the very faith that could save their souls to eternal life.


To end, a word from Charles Dickens and Tiny Tim: "God Bless Us All".

 

[nanscombe]

"gave his accounting of the actual creation in writing to Moses back about 3-4000 years ago" ...


One might ask what was God doing for the rest of the 4,500,000,000 years (age of the earth) or 13,800,000,000 years (age of the universe)?

ETA:
Maybe some advanced alien race did make the Earth out of a cloud of floating gas and debris, by using some process of terraforming, that still wouldn't make them gods.

 

[Dick7Access]

So comforting to know that if the atheist are right, I will never know!!