Are you an atheist? (1 Viewer)

[Dick7Access]

I'm not asking for an argument, I'm asking what form does a soul take, and what is heaven, we have been told what happens when we go to hell but not heaven. It seems to be a simple question. I'm not going to argue or denigrate you, but I know you hope to be in paradise with your God, but what happens there, how will you spend eternity?

Brian

Brian,
It's against my better judgement but I am going to answer you. I did a short paper on Heaven but the dog ate it. Oh! that's right that didn't work in high school either. Just kidding of course, bu it is lost some place on my computer so I will have to re-research it and re-write it. That's a goood thing, however, as I might need it down the road, but it will take me a little while as there are over 270 verse in the NT alone.

 

[Bladerunner]

As a young man I began my career working in a hospital setting doing everything that needed to be done. During this time I have seen countless deaths. Of these deaths of course children are the hardest to take. When your holding an infant that is dying or has just died, you ask yourself-WHY.......... there is no answer forthcoming.................bare with me..... these memories have been locked away so I could sleep at night but I thought they might help someone here in this thread...........the only way you can keep your sanity is to believe that a higher power has a purpose in all of this. I have seen bad people die. While they were dying most of them simply stared ahead with a look of horror in their eyes as if they knew ....... there were others that were fighting death. There was fear in their eyes as the final countdown progressed but just as the very last beats of their heart were at hand, a sort of an amazed look appeared and then the hollow look of death. Something you don't forget, ever...and something you begin to watch for in others as they leave this world behind. Of course there were others, that believed and had no fear but rather a smile on their lips and the look of peace in their eyes as they too took their leave of mankind.

I know the Atheist will say : then why did he let that child die? Someone who had done no harm to anyone! To answer truthfully, I don't know why but again to keep my sanity even to this day and especially right now, I have to believe that there is a God up there with a plan for everyone. While I have never looked for an Atheist that work directly with the patients in a medical facility, I will assume there are very few. WHY? It has to be hard to be compassionate and tell a dying person not to worry, they are going to come back as a bug or something. Or maybe tell them to forget any ideas of heaven or any afterlife.......... you have already had all there is and there is no more.................excuse me ........... but rather tell them that God loves them, that they are going to a better place.... ......... How can you hold any ones hand much less a loved ones hand and tell them you will never see them again, there is no heaven, no hell, no nothing..................So as an Athiest might do: YOU LIE?......No, I could not do that thus I can not be an Athiest. You see in those that truly believe, it is not what is written in the bible, nor is it what is heard from a preacher or surmised by scientist in their endeavor to prove their Atheism is real but rather the belief comes from somewhere down deep........so deep in your soul that you know it is true. There is a God who created all, who loves each and every ones of us, who has a plan for our futures, a God that only asks us to hold him in our hearts and love him. Only then can you have that peace I saw in death so many times.

Of course, there was another category of death that came to us more often than not and it was caused by violence; accidents, murders by all kinds of weapons including those that were simply beaten to death. Of all the violent deaths, some of those that were murdered or beaten to death probably had time to ask for his forgiveness. For those in an accident where death was instant, unless they were a young child or someone who was ignorant of the word of God, all is lost and yes, as someone once said and I paraphrase; 'Be very careful what you ask for'.

There are many people who have seen the other side and returned to tell others. Are these scams? the skeptic and of course the athiest would say yes, but when a 3 year child dies and comes back with stories of seeing a grandfather whom he had never meet, yet he knew him instantly, well...

In an earlier post, I wrote about the experience I had in a dream one night about 6 years ago now. Yes, I still see it as vivid as it was the morning after. Not running over old ground, the person I spoke with in the dream gave me a Gold watch. For two years, I wondered two things, when was the appropriate time to tell my ailing father "not to worry that it was wonderful on the other side" and why had he given me the Gold watch. In all the time that we (my father and I) had worked with these Doctors none of them had given either me nor my father a gold watch. Shortly after my fathers passing, I told the doctor son and his wife about the dream without mentioning the Gold watch. While the son tried hard to believe me; his wife, you could tell, thought I had lost it. I then stated that I just could not understand why he gave me a Gold watch in the dream. He had never given me nor my father one during his lifetime on earth. Both the son and his wife look at me in disbelief and............excuse me...........both came to tears.................After a minute or two, the son told me that his father had given him a gold watch not nine months before his death some 2-3 years before my fathers death. His wife had seen the transaction since it was a birthday gift from a father to the son.............. Finally, all the pieces fit together. The vision had been real, for I only had contact with the son occasionally and had not known he had received a gold watch. I was supposed to tell him where his father was!

In short, Brian to answer your question about where we are going to after death is a place that in the doctors words is "wonderful". Yes, they knew me and I could see them, they had the same faces although they were without a body form. It makes me wonder about our soul and that little electrical spark that is generated about every second or so in order to coerce our hearts into beating one more time or that little spark that courses through our brain 24/7. Could they be the same! you decide

And all you other Atheist out there. you can spew out facts and figures all you want but for those that truly believe, they do not matter. We are not really looking to find anything, we already know he is there, deep down in our soul he is there.

Good night to all

 

[Brianwarnock]

Bladerunner

Thank you for your post, although it did not directly answer my question

I also believe that belief must come from inside, that is why it is difficult to ignore the possibility of a higher power, it's just that religion kinda gets in the way.

Brian

 

[dan-cat]

I have known people to have had similar experiences as Blade within the care industry and come to the opposite conclusion.

As we've all experienced on this forum, outlooks are rarely changed. I think we tend to interpret our experiences in a way that soothes how we view ourselves.

If we have a positive outlook we assert, for example, that a child's death is inexplicable because omni-benevolence is simply beyond our understanding, for a negative outlook we could assert that the universe is, at it's core, indifferent to our emotional response to it.

As Blade says, the proofs are irrelevant when it comes to getting to sleep at night.

 

[Galaxiom]

The vision had been real, for I only had contact with the son occasionally and had not known he had received a gold watch. I was supposed to tell him where his father was!

You may certainly suppose that this is part of some greater purpose but it is just that, supposition. The experience fits the perspective you have been conditioned to adopt.

Meanwhile you simply ignore the much larger body of experience which makes no sense to that perspective such as why your god lets the innocent die.

It is called "confirmation bias" and is well understood by science.

And all you other Atheist out there. you can spew out facts and figures all you want but for those that truly believe, they do not matter. We are not really looking to find anything, we already know he is there, deep down in our soul he is there.

You "know" it is there because you were indoctrinated as a child.

That is fine for you and other believers. However what needs to be understood is that it is a matter of faith and faith has no place in science.

I have no problem with the faithful living by their own delusions. What I do object to is the faithful assuming their prejudices belong as the basis for public policy.

 

[dan-cat]

By the way I've been researching Windows Azure all this week and now I return to this site and am bombarded with Windows Azure ads. Talk about preaching to the choir

 

[Rabbie]

Hi Rabbie: Hope your day is progressing well.

It seems like we have been over and over the Bible and God so I will not rehash it here. However, I made a statement that Atheism is a religion. I guess there several good definitions of a religion but here is one that really takes the cake:

The IRS has specific requirements for what is and is not a religion.

The IRS criteria are:

a distinct legal existence,

a recognized creed and form of worship,

a definite and distinct ecclesiastical government,

a formal code of doctrine and discipline

a distinct religious history,

a membership not associated with any other church or denomination,

an organization of ordained ministers,

ordained ministers selected after completing prescribed studies,

a literature of its own,

established places of worship,

regular congregations,

regular religious services,

Sunday schools for religious instruction of the young,

school for the preparation of its ministers.


the article that I cut this list from goes into the logic and history behind how we define what is and is not a religion at greater depth

Atheism would fulfill the following criteria:

NONE


Live everyday as if it were your last!,,,, You never know

Have a great day :>)
Bladerunner

I have consistently argued in this thread that atheism is not a religion. I do not feel I have a religion.

IMO an atheist is anyone who does not believe in supernatural beings.

 

[amberkei]

I have met many atheists who disbelieve with the same religious fervor that you see in believers. For many, it seems to be the religion that replaced the one with which they were raised.

I think it's always necessary, however, to separate religion and spirituality. Religion is characterized by a set of acts and rituals. You can belong to a religion and have absolutely no faith.

 

[Rabbie]

I have met many atheists who disbelieve with the same religious fervor that you see in believers. For many, it seems to be the religion that replaced the one with which they were raised.

I think it's always necessary, however, to separate religion and spirituality. Religion is characterized by a set of acts and rituals. You can belong to a religion and have absolutely no faith.

Very true there are some like that.

I have already defined what I mean by atheism. Other people may feel a need to convince others that religion is a fraud. I believe that it is up to individuals to make their own decisions especially with regards to their beliefs and moral code.

 

[Dick7Access]

I have met many atheists who disbelieve with the same religious fervor that you see in believers. For many, it seems to be the religion that replaced the one with which they were raised.

I think it's always necessary, however, to separate religion and spirituality. Religion is characterized by a set of acts and rituals. You can belong to a religion and have absolutely no faith.

Right on, amen, you must have visited some of the churches I have been to.

 

[amberkei]

Other people may feel a need to convince others that religion is a fraud. I believe that it is up to individuals to make their own decisions especially with regards to their beliefs and moral code.

I'm (more or less) Wiccan. The entirety of that religion can essentially be boiled down to "It's all good." (An it harm ye none, do what thou wilt.)

 

[The_Doc_Man]

I know I cannot persuade anyone to change their minds. As an atheist, I can only live within myself. However, reading Bladerunner's recent emotional post, I can certainly find other interpretations and thoughts that do not lead to the conclusion of God's existence.

The question is asked: "Why does xxx happen? How can God allow it? What is God's purpose?" The response is usually that "we are not meant to know the mind of God." However, to an atheist with somewhat more of a Zen approach, the underlying answer is VERY simple. "Stuff happens." You don't need a purpose if things happen without some divine purpose. I.e. random events converge randomly. We are conditioned by evolution to seek patterns because that is a survival trait. When we learn the patterns of our competing predators, we can defeat them. But the problem with being conditioned to look for patterns is that then you look for patterns that aren't there.

This will sound like a diversion, but it isn't. In college I had to make a point that using linear regression always gives you the best possible line through a bunch of points. But too many researchers publish junk papers because they forget that math ALWAYS gives you an answer. You can shoot a shotgun with no choke at a sheet of graph paper, then input the coordinates of each pellet hit to your linear regression. You will STILL get a straight line even though a shotgun dispersion pattern is pretty much random if the barrel isn't warped. You will still compute a line where there wasn't one to be found. It is the nature of the math.

Back to the discussion at hand - if we are internally conditioned to find patterns, we ARE going to find a pattern. There is no guarantee that it is real, though. Many folks look for a pattern in life. They look for reasons why something happens. But if you take a more Zen approach, you realize a couple of things. First, asking "WHY" is the wrong question. If this is truly a non-causal universe (and quantum mechanics says it is non-causal in nature) then frequently there IS no WHY to be determined. There IS no pattern to discover in the random events of life.

Second, your better question is usually of the form: OK, this thing/event/condition exists. So... what am I going to do about/with/for it? Ask WHY if and only if it helps you to decide what to do.

So, with no disrespect intended to Bladerunner and other believers - I can see sad moments, violence, painful deaths, and senseless tragedies without seeking a pattern in the supernatural context. The idea is hard for many folks to accept - but we are here because we are here, not because some supernatural effect put us here or planted our seeds or whatever. Things happen because they happen, not because of some divine or demonic vengeance. People get away with doing unkind or unpleasant things because nobody stops them, not because some ethereal father figure is waiting in the wings to punish them for transgressions in this life.

The search for first cause - or any "higher cause" - is doomed in a non-causal universe. The trick is to recognize that whatever bad thing happens to you is either because you made enemies here on Earth or you were careless enough to be your own worst enemy (I fall into that category) or you got unlucky. Remember, the phrase "We are not meant to know the mind of God" translates to "We don't know and we don't think we will ever know why stuff happens. Maybe there isn't a reason."

I understand that having a benevolent father figure firmly ensconced in your mind may offer comfort. If so, go for it. For me, it is not about going to Heaven because I don't think that place exists. Nor does Hell, for that matter. It isn't the destination that you should seek to enjoy. It is the journey - life itself - that should be cherished and respected. Does this make me a secular humanist? Don't know and don't care, because labels are just someone's way to be dismissive of someone else with whom they disagree.

Have a good evening, one and all.

 

[Dick7Access]

I know I cannot persuade anyone to change their minds. As an atheist, I can only live within myself. However, reading Bladerunner's recent emotional post, I can certainly find other interpretations and thoughts that do not lead to the conclusion of God's existence.

The question is asked: "Why does xxx happen? How can God allow it? What is God's purpose?" The response is usually that "we are not meant to know the mind of God." However, to an atheist with somewhat more of a Zen approach, the underlying answer is VERY simple. "Stuff happens." You don't need a purpose if things happen without some divine purpose. I.e. random events converge randomly. We are conditioned by evolution to seek patterns because that is a survival trait. When we learn the patterns of our competing predators, we can defeat them. But the problem with being conditioned to look for patterns is that then you look for patterns that aren't there.

This will sound like a diversion, but it isn't. In college I had to make a point that using linear regression always gives you the best possible line through a bunch of points. But too many researchers publish junk papers because they forget that math ALWAYS gives you an answer. You can shoot a shotgun with no choke at a sheet of graph paper, then input the coordinates of each pellet hit to your linear regression. You will STILL get a straight line even though a shotgun dispersion pattern is pretty much random if the barrel isn't warped. You will still compute a line where there wasn't one to be found. It is the nature of the math.

Back to the discussion at hand - if we are internally conditioned to find patterns, we ARE going to find a pattern. There is no guarantee that it is real, though. Many folks look for a pattern in life. They look for reasons why something happens. But if you take a more Zen approach, you realize a couple of things. First, asking "WHY" is the wrong question. If this is truly a non-causal universe (and quantum mechanics says it is non-causal in nature) then frequently there IS no WHY to be determined. There IS no pattern to discover in the random events of life.

Second, your better question is usually of the form: OK, this thing/event/condition exists. So... what am I going to do about/with/for it? Ask WHY if and only if it helps you to decide what to do.

So, with no disrespect intended to Bladerunner and other believers - I can see sad moments, violence, painful deaths, and senseless tragedies without seeking a pattern in the supernatural context. The idea is hard for many folks to accept - but we are here because we are here, not because some supernatural effect put us here or planted our seeds or whatever. Things happen because they happen, not because of some divine or demonic vengeance. People get away with doing unkind or unpleasant things because nobody stops them, not because some ethereal father figure is waiting in the wings to punish them for transgressions in this life.

The search for first cause - or any "higher cause" - is doomed in a non-causal universe. The trick is to recognize that whatever bad thing happens to you is either because you made enemies here on Earth or you were careless enough to be your own worst enemy (I fall into that category) or you got unlucky. Remember, the phrase "We are not meant to know the mind of God" translates to "We don't know and we don't think we will ever know why stuff happens. Maybe there isn't a reason."

I understand that having a benevolent father figure firmly ensconced in your mind may offer comfort. If so, go for it. For me, it is not about going to Heaven because I don't think that place exists. Nor does Hell, for that matter. It isn't the destination that you should seek to enjoy. It is the journey - life itself - that should be cherished and respected. Does this make me a secular humanist? Don't know and don't care, because labels are just someone's way to be dismissive of someone else with whom they disagree.



Have a good evening, one and all.

I agree wholly. There was a time when was a not believing christian, and a time when I was an agnostic, I am now a believing Christian and a preacher. The journey as a christian is by far the most rewarding. My ministry takes me around many Christian and lots of agnostic and just a few atheist. The greatest percentage of peoplle on a great journey are believing Christians. Very few agnostic I meet claim to haveing a good journey, some do. I hardly meet an atheists that's not on a bad trip.(pun intended)

 

[Dick7Access]

I'm not asking for an argument, I'm asking what form does a soul take, and what is heaven, we have been told what happens when we go to hell but not heaven. It seems to be a simple question. I'm not going to argue or denigrate you, but I know you hope to be in paradise with your God, but what happens there, how will you spend eternity?

Brian

The Bible speaks way more about hell than it does about Heaven.
IMO it’s probable that most people don’t need much incentive to want Heaven.
This is not meant to be inclusive, but it is the best I can do for now as in a few days I am having surgery, and then I head to Biloxi, MS
It is a place of rest Heb 4:3 to 11
We will have a mansion to live in John 14:1 to 3
We will have incorruptible bodies. 1 cort. 15 51: to 54
Most of all, our new bodies will not have pain. Rev. 21:4

 

[Brianwarnock]

Thank you for replying even tho I still have questions.

Modern cataract surgery is very successful and a "simple " outpatient operation, not like in my day 30+ years ago, but nonetheless no surgery is without its risks and I would like to wish you well.

Brian

 

[Dick7Access]

Thank you for replying even tho I still have questions.

Modern cataract surgery is very successful and a "simple " outpatient operation, not like in my day 30+ years ago, but nonetheless no surgery is without its risks and I would like to wish you well.

Brian

Thanks for the well wishes. 30 years ago did they lay you up in the hospital for any days?

 

[Brianwarnock]

I was fortunate , I found by accident a Chinese optometrist who was doing the forerunner of the current operation, I only had to stay in 2 days mainly due to having a general anaesthetic.
I had to have this done privately which was a strain on the family finances at the time, as the op was not available on the NHS and the old op was very risky for me due to the elongation of my eyeballs.

Brian

 

[Dick7Access]

I was fortunate , I found by accident a Chinese optometrist who was doing the forerunner of the current operation, I only had to stay in 2 days mainly due to having a general anaesthetic.
I had to have this done privately which was a strain on the family finances at the time, as the op was not available on the NHS and the old op was very risky for me due to the elongation of my eyeballs.

Brian

That's what I though. I had heard that back then they kept you in a few days. On the left eye I went in to a clinic at 7:30 am and was out by 10:00 am. I needed a driver, to take me home, but was able to drive the next day, but had to wear sun glasses. My Ti-care for Life covered everything except an elective eye test. That cost me $290.00, but I could have opt not to have it. Many told me it was a rip off, but for a few bucks and concerning my eyes I wasn't taking a chance. I almost got out of the Navy twice, but the though of the medical insurance kept me in. It sure is paying off today. Two years ago when my wife fell in the bathroom and shattered her leg the medical helicopter ride cost $35,000. I paid nothing. The two times I almost got out was because I was being a wimp. Big bad SeaBee, but I am afraid of snakes.

 

[tehNellie]

Blimey, this thread has been going all this time and I never once took part in it?

I'm frankly amazed that 16% say that they're atheist and not even conclusive proof of a divine being would change their mind. I'm atheist simply because the best evidence points to there not being a divine being.

I've got no real problem with people being religious in and of itself and one of my hobbies is travelling the world exploring dusty temples and churches but while I can appreciate the architecture, art and, to a degree, inspiration the ultimate reason does baffle me and I wouldn't want to live somewhere that dictated that I had to believe a certain thing, whether it's ISIS, the Vatican or the USA.

I know individuals of many faiths who are the epitome of what the faith is supposed to represent but I still find it very hard to believe that Asif will go to heaven but Graham will got to hell because Graham backed the wrong franchise or vice versa. If I'm wrong and I'm condemned off the back of the same Being deciding to be aloof for my lifetime then, by accident, I think I was probably right. It had my entire lifetime to make its displeasure known but decided not to; yet that's my fault! Come on, I'm both Married and have sisters, give me a break.

Likewise an oft raised "gotcha" especially from American Christian shills is "If you don't believe in God how can you live a moral lifestyle?" My response to that has always been that it doesn't take the threat of divine retribution hanging over me to prevent me being an arsehole to other people. I choose to try not to be a dick because that is who I am not because I think some divine being will punish me later.

 

[Bladerunner]

Blimey, this thread has been going all this time and I never once took part in it?

I'm frankly amazed that 16% say that they're atheist and not even conclusive proof of a divine being would change their mind.

I'm atheist simply because the best evidence points to there not being a divine being.

And where pray tell does this evidence point to?Unlike you I was part of this thread from sometime back and To date I have heard no evidence that there is no GOD! OH and Jesus was real , yes he lived and has been proven through historical records that are not from the Bible.

I've got no real problem with people being religious in and of itself and one of my hobbies is travelling the world exploring dusty temples and churches but while I can appreciate the architecture, art and, to a degree, inspiration the ultimate reason does baffle me and

I wouldn't want to live somewhere that dictated that I had to believe a certain thing, whether it's ISIS, the Vatican or the USA.

The Vatican or the USA do not dictate that you have to believe in a christian religion or any religion for that matter of fact. However, ISIS (Muslims) do dictate how your are to believe and they are out to conquer the whole world to prove it.

I know individuals of many faiths who are the epitome of what the faith is supposed to represent but

I still find it very hard to believe that Asif will go to heaven but Graham will got to hell because Graham backed the wrong franchise or vice versa.

The only way to Heaven is through Jesus Christ!. Think of it as someone that does not like you, chastises you, mocks you and yes even hates you. Are you going to offer them a seat at your table when things get hard?????

If I'm wrong and I'm condemned off the back of the same Being deciding to be aloof for my lifetime then, by accident, I think I was probably right. It had my entire lifetime to make its displeasure known but decided not to; yet that's my fault! Come on, I'm both Married and have sisters, give me a break.

You final fate is up to you and only you!

Likewise an oft raised "gotcha" especially from American Christian shills is "If you don't believe in God how can you live a moral lifestyle?" My response to that has always been that it doesn't take the threat of divine retribution hanging over me to prevent me being an arsehole to other people. I choose to try not to be a dick because that is who I am not because I think some divine being will punish me later.

What is Morality and where does it come from?

just being good to people will only get you the appreciation of the people you helped or were good to. It will not get you into heaven!