Boxing Ring

[Rich]

How often do you have sex with other guys?

Well since you asked, actually never

 

[dan-cat]

If you don't want your partner to have a sexual experience with someone they're attracted to, ask yourself why.

I have asked myself why and here is what I have come up with.

When I was a kid, I had two other best friends. We had this special "camp" that we would go to, to hang out and goof around. Now the location of this place was secret and what we spoke of there was never spoken of elsewhere. This is what I mean by intimate, it's a seperation from the outside world. The fact that no-one else was invited to this place strengthened our bond.

Now for me, same goes for sex. You build a relationship with another by creating those little nuggets that no-one else knows about. The more of these little gems that you and your partner know about and nobody else does, the stronger your bond. That is what I mean by intimacy.

This is how intimacy and sex can combine. If you and only you know how to make your partner squeal by touching him/her in the right place - that is what fortifies your bond. You can tell other people about what makes you squeal if you like but my point is, is that is one less thing that is unique to your relationship and one less thing that you are your partner keep solely to yourselves.

 

[Kraj]

How often do you have sex with other guys?

Ken, if you felt personally attacked by my initial comments because you thought I was suggesting your own relationship was based on nothing but fear, I sincerely apologize. But I have explained myself several times over that your interpretation of my statements was not the intended meaning of my statements. You have yet to demonstrate or even acknowledge that you now accurately understand what I was trying to say in the first place. Until you do I have no desire to continue the discussion with you.

Furthermore, I have made no direct personal comments about you or your marriage or asked any questions about your behavior. That is because the discussion is not about the individual choice a couple makes about their sex life, it is about human behavior in general. So unless you explain what purpose will be served by me discussing my personal life, then I'm not going to do it. Especially when the last time I discussed my personal feelings, you used them to attack my position.

I have asked myself why and here is what I have come up with.[...]

I think I can honestly say that's the best argument for monogamy I've ever heard. I will also say that that desire, in and of itself, has no fear-based component. What I see there is a desire to create a bond with your lover, and one method is to make certain aspects of yourself more special by reserving some things for only her. I'd say there's a degree of illusion there, but hey, Oscar Wilde said that illusion is the first of all pleasures I can also see how, if this type of bond is a significant part of the relationship, sex outside the relationship would damage it no matter what.

However, I would hope that the "nuggets" you speak of run much deeper than sexually. If you gave up some of the sexual ones, you certainly should have plenty more when it comes to your experiences together, secrets, you've shared, hardships you've weathered, etc.

I would also suggest that the strength of one's desire to have sex outside of the relationship is important. If it's minor, then it's probably not worth sacrificing any nuggets. If it is strong, then it might do more damage to the relationship not to act on it than losing a nugget or two would do.

 

[KenHigg]

Ken, if you felt personally attacked by my initial comments because you thought I was suggesting your own relationship was based on nothing but fear, I sincerely apologize. But I have explained myself several times over that your interpretation of my statements was not the intended meaning of my statements. You have yet to demonstrate or even acknowledge that you now accurately understand what I was trying to say in the first place. Until you do I have no desire to continue the discussion with you..

I think your 'no desire' and subsequent 'Furthermore' just had a head-on collision

I think the catch is this; I think that sex and relationships are inextricably intertwined and I get the feeling that you don't.

Furthermore, I have made no direct personal comments about you or your marriage or asked any questions about your behavior. That is because the discussion is not about the individual choice a couple makes about their sex life, it is about human behavior in general. So unless you explain what purpose will be served by me discussing my personal life, then I'm not going to do it. Especially when the last time I discussed my personal feelings, you used them to attack my position.

Sorry, You certainly seemed willing to discuss them when you felt it bolstered your argument...

 

[Rich]

I think that sex and relationships are inextricably intertwined ...

Does the rest of the animal kingdom feel this way?

 

[KenHigg]

Does the rest of the animal kingdom feel this way?

Good question! Why don't you ask the monkey in the mirror?

 

[Rich]

Good question! Why don't you ask the monkey in the mirror?

But you're not standing beside me Ken

 

[KenHigg]

But you're not standing beside me Ken

I'll try to stand by your feeble side and support you whatever the answer is

 

[Rich]

I'll try to stand by your feeble side and support you whatever the answer is

Well that's good because I have a cynical view towards marriage and monogamy. Are you still standing?

 

[Kraj]

I think the catch is this; I think that sex and relationships are inextricably intertwined and I get the feeling that you don't.

This is fun. You are attempting to strengthen your position by redefining it in more ambiguous terms.

If by "inextricably intertwined" you mean "they always affect each other" then I'll agree. If you mean that sex cannot occur outside of a relationship, or that sex constitutes a relationship (beyond a sexual encounter), then I disagree and have previously supported such a position.

Sorry, You certainly seemed willing to discuss them when you felt it bolstered your argument...

If you're referring to this:

I stay with my partner because I love him. Every day, I choose to be with him. I choose him when we're happy, I choose him when we're fighting. I choose him when I'm lonely and I choose him when I have the opportunity to choose someone else. There's no one else I'd rather go to bed with and there's no one else I'd rather have holding me when I wake up. I can't imagine my life without him and I get all teary-eyed when I try.

I every way that actually matters, Ken, I'm married.

it was not an argument at all, it was an answer to your question. It was also before you started making off-color comments at my expense. If you're referring to this:

Good luck on this one...

I'm having good luck with this one, thank you very much.

then yes, I opened the gate on that one. However, all I was really doing was making a smarmy reply to your smary comment, not bolstering an argument.

In any case, I'm getting weary of your personal comments toward me, when I'm just trying to have an honest discussion. This may be the boxing ring, but I didn't wrench myself out of a war with Rich and Colin just to start one with you. So I may choose not to reply to further comments. Good day.

 

[KenHigg]

Which comment do you feel was smarmy? (So I can try and avoid it next time) If it was the one about the number of sex partners, I'm sorry. I was just trying establish what you feel is an acceptable level of sexual activites one could have without having it affect the relationship you have with your partner.

Personally, I say none. Would you say a weekly whirl or maybe just once or twice a month? Or maybe just once in a blue moon? I really didn't think the question was flippant or smarmy,espeacially when posed to a person of such self proclaimed sexual liberation.

Edit: Maybe the two of us should avoid any debates on these topics in the future, I'd hate to lose you as a friend. And I still think we agree on much more than we disagree on

 

[Rich]

But if you desire to have sexual contact with people outside your relationship (as the great majority of people do at some point) but don't because you're afraid of what it would do to the relationship, then I would suggest you and/or your partner probably have unhealthy insecurities.

Whilst they might be unhealthy, I suspect most of us have them.

 

[Rich]

I was just trying establish what you feel is an acceptable level of sexual activites one could have without having it affect the relationship you have with your partner.

That would depend on your partners feelings, surely?

 

[KenHigg]

That would depend on your partners feelings, surely?

Sorry Rich, I think the page has been turned in this thread

 

[jsanders]

You guys mind if I chime in?

 

[KenHigg]

I don't. But I may have run Kraj off

 

[jsanders]

Let me reinstall word first; cant spell my own name.

 

[jsanders]

I have dedicated a little time to think about this. I think you are both right. I see monogamy as a gift. A process by which you assuage your partners fears. But it’s much more than that. When I was young I had many (too numerous to speak about) affairs. And at one point one woman seemed like another. Now I practice monogamy as a method of making sex into love making. As a pact, a pact that doesn’t let anyone else be part of our intimate life.

Now love making continues to get better. So it is a self fulfilling legacy of intimacy.

Sounds like bs, I know, but it works.

 

[KenHigg]

I have dedicated a little time to think about this. I think you are both right. I see monogamy as a gift. A process by which you assuage your partners fears. But it’s much more than that. When I was young I had many (too numerous to speak about) affairs. And at one point one woman seemed like another. Now I practice monogamy as a method of making sex into love making. As a pact, a pact that doesn’t let anyone else be part of our intimate life.

Now love making continues to get better. So it is a self fulfilling legacy of intimacy.

Sounds like bs, I know, but it works.

I light of the fact that I've decided to clip my own wings on this topic, I 'no comment' your reply.

But can still do one of these -> (Can't I?)

 

[Kraj]

Which comment do you feel was smarmy? (So I can try and avoid it next time)

The one I quoted: "Good luck on this one..."

It didn't bother me in the least, but if you're not making a serious comment, then I should not be held to my non-serious reply.

If it was the one about the number of sex partners, I'm sorry. I was just trying establish what you feel is an acceptable level of sexual activites one could have without having it affect the relationship you have with your partner.

Personally, I say none.

I would say that's for people to work out for themselves. For most people today, it's none, but I also think for most people that's unhealthy. Why? Because people want to have sex with different people; that's a part of human biology. It doesn't go away when you say 'I do' and that causes a hell of a lot of stress on a marriage. It would be healthier for the individuals and healthier for the relationship if they have some sort of outlet for those desires rather than repressing them. If there's one useful thing that psychology has taught us, it is that repressing emotions is rarely a healthy thing.

My contention from the beginning has been that forcing those emtions into repression damages relationships and marriages. More than half of marriages end in divorce and a large percentage (at least 30%) of those are related or directly due to infidelity. Additionally, more than half of marriages continue after infidelity occurs and 78% of them later describe their marriage as unhappy. (Statistics from www.divorcepeers.com) That works out to around 35-40% of marriages that would otherwise be happy if the partners simply had a healthy sexual outlet.

If you really, really, really, really, really, want to know about my personal relationship, I'll tell you. It's just that the last thing I want to do is to make it seem like I'm arguing that my arrangement is right for everyone or that everyone should feel the same way I do about it.

Edit: Maybe the two of us should avoid any debates on these topics in the future, I'd hate to lose you as a friend. And I still think we agree on much more than we disagree on

I'd agree, but I don't think it's necessary to avoid discussing sexual topics as long as we can avoid taking things personally.

I see monogamy as a gift.[...]

I don't think that's b.s., I think that's you recognizing what you want most out of sex and understanding how to be where you want to be. And I think that's wonderful. The key here is it's what you've decided for yourself and not something you've been forced into by your partner or society. And that's very healthy