Butt Out CIA

[Len Boorman]

WEhen an Intelligence Organisation is given access to data in a particular country then both the Country supplying the data should ensure that they only supply data for the "host" country, Seems to me that here SWIFT were very much at fault and CIA just said nothing.

CIA saying nothing one can understand to a degree but this is where things start to fall apart.

Moral responsibilities should have said...hang on ... we need to get the okay from other countries.

Those moral responsibilities rest with both SWIFT and CIA.

But it seems that in general moral responsibility is something sadly lacking in most areas these days and I do not mean just SWIFT, CIA.

We have a bunch over here who would have resigned long ago if they had any morals at all.

L

 

[pono1]

Bush never stops finding ways to harm Americans and neither do we.
I may have got that the wrong way around

The point now is how do we work together to achieve important goals. And one such goal is a democracy in Germany.

 

[dan-cat]

There is one thing though (and this is NOT a knock at the USA ) It seems to me and others here that the US government just can't wait to tell the world about what its doing - undercover or not. Quite often we are surprised to see a spokesman or military person detailing exactly how things were / are done. I get the feeling the word "undercover" and "secret" are absent from the government dictionary.

Indeed, the bravado that comes with these militiary press conferences is impossible to deny. I like to think that it is all intentional bulls__t to make the militiary look as if they are doing something proactive rather than them broadcasting their strategies on CNN. But then again...

In the UK, the MI5 and MI6 tend to be fairly secret, I'm not sure I want to know exactly what they do to try to keep us safe.

Yes. It's down to trusting your authority. Sometimes there is a time to accept your leader and trust their judgment. Most of us did that with the 'WMD' excuse in Iraq. However the intelligence fell way short. Again the intelligence regarding the reconstruction of Iraq was woeful.

These points lead to distrust and yet we haven't had another terrorist attack on US soil since 9/11.

So as you can probably tell, I'm undecided on the issue

PS: Blaming the fear culture on GWB is a tad unfair. Watching the national geographic channel makes me afraid of going out into the yard

 

[ShaneMan]

There was a programme on satellite TV a few months ago (produced by the BBC I think) which investigated the "activities" of the CIA. Plus of course their activities (the CIA's) were included in the Fahrenheit 9/11 film.
Col

Colin,

I've seen you post a number of times using Fahrenheit 9/11. This is were I get my statements that "people find what their looking for." People will agree with souces that they think are telling it like they want to hear it and give them a thumbs up but anything reported they are not in line with is "censored", "brainwashed" or some other term. Micheal Moore is a screen writer. He has enough money backing to make a film and express his "opinions" of how things are and from there people get to choose whether they think it's based on facts or not. I really have a hard time understanding how someone can read a source or watch a source and just take it all in and say that must be the way it is. This includes the BBC. I do not trust the media, right or left, to express the truth without their bias mixed in. I guess I get involved with some of these threads cause it allows me to interact with people but some times I really wonder why I or anyone else does because what it really accomplishes is allowing me to express my opinion or read someone else's but nothing really changes.

I'm not trying to put a finger in your ribs. Just wondering why you would put so much stock (as least it appears to me that way) in a screen writers opinion being expressed as fact.

 

[Matty]

Couldn't have put it better myself.

 

[ColinEssex]

Colin,

I've seen you post a number of times using Fahrenheit 9/11.

Have you seen the film?

Col

 

[Matty]

Yes everybody, see Fahrenheit 9/11. You can't have a meaningful debate (argument) with Colin without it!

 

[Matt Greatorex]

It was the New York Post. Should it be called freedom of press when the press releases information about a countries war time strategies? I think it is treason, when I newspaper cares more about selling their papers than it does being loyal to their country.

Unless I'm missing something - and it wouldn't be the first time - they didn't actually reveal any strategies. Knowing that an organization is monitoring all transactions is hardly helpful to those wishing to remain secretive. After all, it was hardly a secret from the Germans that the British were monitoring radio transmissions during WWII.

Once equipped with this knowledge, they have the options of (a) carrying on, in which case they get caught; (b) stopping, in which case the 'good guys' win or (c) changing their methods. Given that the system being monitored probably covers the majority of transactions, this would at the very least be an inconvenience for them, no?

Putting to one side the argument of whether or not it violates people's rights, I don't really see how this article could be classed as treason.

 

[Rich]

Yes everybody, see Fahrenheit 9/11. You can't have a meaningful debate (argument) with Colin without it!

How can you have a meaningful debate with anybody about the film if you haven't seen it ?

 

[Rich]

The point now is how do we work together to achieve important goals. And one such goal is a democracy in Germany.

Somebody should point out that it's actually a Republic, like the US

 

[Vassago]

I by no means trust the media. As you stated, there is plenty of one sidedness in the media as well. Fox news has never broadcasted anything against the Bush administration and makes everything seem positive about them. I hate political media as they always choose a side. This is why I watch it all. I want to understand all points of view. I try to see the argument from both sides, which allows me to try and understand the opinions expressed from both.

To reference what Colin was saying about the government being too open, I hate to disagree (as I'm likely to pay for it) but I think it's misinterpreted. I strongly believe that the government makes press statements that only benefit themselves. They try to justify their own missions by showing scenes and plans that may be months old, only to try and get the approval rating higher. Do you really think that the terrorists they show who the troops have successfully gunned down actually were gunned down on the day specified? What are the chances that they are withholding the truth until it would benefit them to announce the death of a terrorist, say, when the approval ratings are lowest to try and boost support from the civilians.

 

[Rich]

I by no means trust the media. As you stated, there is plenty of one sidedness in the media as well. Fox news has never broadcasted anything against the Bush administration and makes everything seem positive about them. I hate political media as they always choose a side. This is why I watch it all. I want to understand all points of view. I try to see the argument from both sides, which allows me to try and understand the opinions expressed from both.

To reference what Colin was saying about the government being too open, I hate to disagree (as I'm likely to pay for it) but I think it's misinterpreted. I strongly believe that the government makes press statements that only benefit themselves. They try to justify their own missions by showing scenes and plans that may be months old, only to try and get the approval rating higher. Do you really think that the terrorists they show who the troops have successfully gunned down actually were gunned down on the day specified? What are the chances that they are withholding the truth until it would benefit them to announce the death of a terrorist, say, when the approval ratings are lowest to try and boost support from the civilians.

You're becoming cynical at an early age Vass, that's good, I like it

 

[Vassago]

You're becoming cynical at an early age Vass, that's good, I like it

I learn from the best!

 

[Matty]

How can you have a meaningful debate with anybody about the film if you haven't seen it ?

I was referring to the fact that you cannot have a meaningful debate with Colin about ANY topic without seeing that film. It was sarcasm (well, with a bit of truth tossed in).

 

[ShaneMan]

Have you seen the film?

Col

No, and do not plan to. I have heard enough about it to know that I do not want to see it. I listen to plenty from both sides but when "I feel" like something has gone way past the lines of truth, then I do not want to take part in wasting my time on it. I have heard clips from it and quoted "lines", to know that I feel it is nothing more than a man's opinion who is out to the extreme left.

 

[ShaneMan]

Shane,

Vass didn't introduce religion into the equation, I did.
And, I don't think Vass is being one-sided... although I may be.
"Jesus doesn't love you if you're not a Republican" Have I actually heard those words? Uh... no... but I was in church for SEVERAL years and everything I heard from the pulpit was in support of the Republican spin. Democrats were called "Demoncrats" And yes... I HAVE heard that... directly from the pulpit.

Now, I'm not saying that if the Demoncrats were in power that I would be happy with everything they did. Actually, no matter which political party is in "power", I don't trust them. They aren't looking out for America. They are looking out for the people that back them. THEY are Anti-Americans! THEY are UnPatriotic! THEY are selling this country down the river!

And, yes... they are taking the UK down the river with us. Where will we end up?

My gut says to scream "REVOLT!" and yet the current undertow in my country stuns me into fear of screaming that word. I fear we are turning into Nazi Germany, little by little... day by day. I may be saying something extremely unpopular in my next utterance..... (oh... so unlike my last sentence... lol)... but I understand how the good people of Germany fell victim to the powers of the Nazi Government. I honestly believe that the majority of Germany most likely consisted of wonderful, caring, good people that were brow-beaten by fear into subjection and submission until they all chanted "Heil!"

You know what? My husband said.... you may be right, but you may not want to send that post. I wonder if he's afraid the Bush administration may find this "Anti-American" sentiment and burn our house down.

Sorry I didn't reply sooner Tess, I just flat missed your post. I'm pretty sure the Bible doesn't say anything about being Demy or Reb in order for Jesus to love you, so I believe we're on safe ground there.

I always find it unfortunate that people have bad experiences in church. Preachers seem to take their pulpits too far now days. They preach their opinions or convictions rather than what the Bible says. I can see where churches and Demy keep getting further and further apart cause the Demy's keep making stands for things that would be contrary to Biblical teaching but to go so far as name calling from the pulpit is just too far.

I guess I can't share your concerns for our country needing a revolt but I can respect yours and others opinions to think otherwise. I guess I just can't see what others do. I do believe things are bad all over the world and every country has their problems. I just can't see how ours is so much more magnified than anyone elses. I'm sure this opens up a whole can of worms for a couple of my fellow forum playmates to jump in but at least I'm being up front.

 

[Vassago]

No, and do not plan to. I have heard enough about it to know that I do not want to see it. I listen to plenty from both sides but when "I feel" like something has gone way past the lines of truth, then I do not want to take part in wasting my time on it. I have heard clips from it and quoted "lines", to know that I feel it is nothing more than a man's opinion who is out to the extreme left.

But you can't really say you "know" anything about the movie. Just because peoople tell you about it, doesn't mean their opinion should be the same as yours. If you feel that 9/11 meant something to you, you should see it regardless of your opinions about Michael Moore or what people tell you.

 

[Rich]

to know that I feel it is nothing more than a man's opinion who is out to the extreme left.

Unlike the war in Iraq which was based on one mans opinion and who happens to be on the extreme right.

 

[ShaneMan]

But you can't really say you "know" anything about the movie. Just because peoople tell you about it, doesn't mean their opinion should be the same as yours. If you feel that 9/11 meant something to you, you should see it regardless of your opinions about Michael Moore or what people tell you.

Vassago,

Your right I can't say that I "know" anything about the movie, that's way I said I've heard enough about it to know I wouldn't come close to agreeing so I haven't watched it. If it would make you feel more comfortable about me commenting on it then I'll rent it and just have detailed reasons why I wouldn't agree with it. Michael Moore is a screen writer, not a documentor, with a left wing axe to grind, why would I want to listen to that? Same reason I would not go watch Al Gores new movie or read a book by Hillery. I want to be open minded but I can't see why I would need to read anything or watch anything from extreme views. Left or right.

 

[ShaneMan]

Unlike the war in Iraq which was based on one mans opinion and who happens to be on the extreme right.

Your right Rich. We have a dictator here. One man makes all the decisions without any other government officals say so. We have a government of men here who make decisions with checks and balances, so no one person can make a final decision about something.