code that writes code? (1 Viewer)

[vba_php]

there was an article that came thru my google news feed the other day about the rise of low-level code and the use of GUI's to generate source code:

https://www.alphasoftware.com/blog/...re-central-to-the-future-of-their-enterprises

https://www.ciodive.com/news/low-code-101-and-the-rise-of-drag-and-drop-programming/564587/

Has anyone ever used programs like this, or currently using them? I'm sure this is not new. It may be a new service that allows non-technical people to write applications, but as far as automatically generating source code is concerned, I was doing this as far back as 2009 when I first started programming in PHP. and I used my own FAQ page on this forum to do it. I literally ran VBA scripts for hours to capture all the data on www.php.net and throw it into multiple tables and set up the relationships accordingly. I also did this for the entire document object model and captured all the HTML elements, their attributes and the applicable arguments (CSS too). Then I set up a GUI with access forms to allow me to write code for creating various webpage elements (HTML tables, forms, links, inputs, buttons, etc...) and transactions (javascript AJAX, PHP post forms, data sanitation, etc...). I even had a button on one of my forms that generated PHP scripts automatically. I had many listboxes that each listed things like functions available, their argument values to include, global variables available, a list of class libraries that could be included or required, etc....Then I would generate the code and it would be put into a memo field in the table. from there it was an easy copy-paste into a php file and a short upload with filezilla.

 

[The_Doc_Man]

What do you think the Access wizards do, and for that matter, HAVE done since Ac2.0?

 

[vba_php]

What do you think the Access wizards do, and for that matter, HAVE done since Ac2.0?

Well I don't really think the access wizards are the same thing as what people are talking about now. They're prolly referring to large batches of code and full scripts being generated. Access wizards don't really do shit, unless ur referring to creating actual objects with wizards? That might be closer to what these experts r talking about, but it's still prolly on a smaller scale than what's coming down the pipe.

 

[The_Doc_Man]

Since the mid-1980s I have seen systems that claim to generate code or that claim to have data-driven operations. PeopleSoft comes to mind, but here's the catch. These things work because they have pre-defined paradigms as, for lack of a better word, templates. You want an HR solution? They have payroll, withholding, insurance, etc. all built into templates, and some of them are state-specific. But the moment you step "outside the box" with that stuff, they charge you an arm and a leg for modifications. I known this because of the DIHMRS project, which tried to use one of those solutions.

You can read about it here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Defense_Integrated_Military_Human_Resources_System

The thing about PeopleSoft is that they came in talking sweetness and light, but when the deep analysis was complete, the difference between the PeopleSoft product and the ORACLE product was 1% - PeopleSoft was 19% usable (and thus 81% needed to be customized) whereas the ORACLE product was 18% usable. Note also that once DIHMRS folded, ORACLE bought PeopleSoft.

The problem was cost overruns, overblown promises, and inherent flaws in concept. For one thing, the five affected branches of service EACH had their own viewpoint about what needed to be (and what DIDN'T need to be) in the system. Reconciling those views became impossible. But then, in order to implement what they really wanted, they had to use database triggers - events for the BE processor, really - that had the sad side effect of adding huge amounts of overhead. It got to the point that the high-end CPUs they were using couldn't handle the load for all the special cases.

There were other issues related to "authoritative sources" because of something called "rice-bowl politics" - in essence, you keep your chopsticks out of my rice bowl. The "not invented here" syndrome was rampant. So I can't 100% lay the blame on PeopleSoft. There was enough blame to go around for a long time. It was merely compounded by the fact that each branch wanted their own brand of "stink" on the pile, and the code to test for Army, Navy, Marines, Air Force, and Coast Guard simply was too much to handle.

In any case, because there was no "off the shelf" stuff available, even from the "automatic code generator" groups, the project fell totally flat. Which was one reason why I didn't retire earlier. The machine that I ran that handled the U.S. Navy Reserve had been programmed in a more targeted fashion from the ground up and as such did not have the inherent deficiencies of "one-size-fits-all" programs. (Which don't really exist anyway...)

 

[vba_php]

Since the mid-1980s I have seen systems that claim to generate code or that claim to have data-driven operations. PeopleSoft comes to mind, but here's the catch. These things work because they have pre-defined paradigms as, for lack of a better word, templates. You want an HR solution? They have payroll, withholding, insurance, etc. all built into templates, and some of them are state-specific. But the moment you step "outside the box" with that stuff, they charge you an arm and a leg for modifications.

that's exactly why I don't think this crap will ever be widely adopted!

 

[The_Doc_Man]

Well, maybe and maybe not. Don't forget that for some businesses, they are "vanilla" enough that the OTC stuff will be ADEQUATE (not perfect) for them and they will learn to let the tail wag the dog. There will be a market for it. But companies that have their own special way of doing business will not let that wagging tail be a part of their lives and will grow their own in order to keep their business model pure.

For a Mom-and-Pop shop, they might not KNOW enough to worry about tail-wagging dogs or dog-wagging tails. For such people, really simple solutions that work correctly will be good for them.

 

[Gasman]

I know of large companies in the UK that put their faith in PACBASE.

Probably still using them now as legacy systems.?

 

[Mark_]

Doc, DIHMRS had lots of other issues that were not even touch on in what you posted. They tried to load the service records for the Army and found out it just couldn't handle the number of records the way they had set it up.

As to code that writes other code, there are a lot of development environments that allow you to choose a template for a specific action. Use the template and the application writes the source code for that action/those actions based on what objects you have that the template applies to.

Won't work if you don't have all of the application specific pieces done though. But there are products where you can define your tables, define your relations, and define special validations then have it run a wizard (much like ACCESS) to generate base reports and forms. Then you add one template and it creates all the supporting code to be run as a service generating matching HTML forms/reports for your database. Stuff has been around for a long time.