Cyber bullying - fact or fiction? (3 Viewers)

[scott-atkinson]

No, this is a thread for Cyber bullying and not capitalism vs socialism. While cyber bullying is a product of the internet, it is also tied to the family unit. It is apparent that we will not agree on the reason for the demise of the family unit and this thread is no place for a discussion of capitalism vs socialism. Maybe another thread.

Have a nice day :>)
Bladerunner

I guess I won that argument then...

 

[Bladerunner]

Is this cos you are agueing capitalism is responsible for us all having gadgets like mobile phones etc.

Or are the outlandish claims of capitalism only valid when they are
favourable?

;-)

Ok. If you and the other members, Mods don't mind, I don't. Oh, before I forget, Belgium just ok'd 'child euthenasia'. Where is it going to stop?

Setting the stage:

Socialism is an economic system characterized by social ownership and control of the means of production and cooperative management of the economy, and a political philosophy advocating such a system. A socialist economic system is the organisational precept of production for use, meaning the production of goods and services to directly satisfy economic demand and human needs where objects are valued based on their use-value or utility. (keep in mind there are many forms of socialism or degrees but they still all are based on one word. CONTROL)


Capitalism is an economic system in which trade, industry and the means of production are controlled by private owners with the goal of making profits in a market economy. In a capitalist economy, the parties to a transaction typically determine the prices at which assets, goods, and services are exchanged.

Since this is the type of gadget which enables cyber bullying. Cyber bullying is one of the consequences of capitalism?[/QUOTE

]

Consequences of capitalism or simply a modification caused from the destruction of the family unit? Just because it is there does not mean it has to be used!

Another story if you will: Sometime in the 60's-70's a neighbor works for the state at minimum wage. He makes the conscious decision to forgo any extra education and yes, he has ample opportunity to get that education if he wants it. Instead he sticks with the security of the state job. You see it is hard to fire a state employee plus they are told they will be taken care of when they get old. I would also adventure to say that the state job of simply holding up a shovel was very appealing to him. Yes, his wife worked at the local shirt factory in order to help make ends meet. They raised two kids (boys) who followed in their fathers footsteps by getting a minimal wage job with the state. Why not, they have cut their lifestyle to enable them to live on the money coming in. Yes, all those cheap things that capitalistic production produces where a part of their home and did increase their prosperity. They were and are comfortable in their lifestyle. Three houses down, I and my wife lived in the same type of environment. The difference was, we wanted to get ahead of the game. We both worked a job, sometimes two jobs and went to school at the same time. Because of capitalism we were able to eventually leave that street. The other father is now retired getting a state pension, his adult kids are living there feeding off of that state pension with not a thought of getting ahead.

To all and especially Scott: Under Capitalism you can pull yourself up by the boot straps and have a little better lifetsyle. Under Socialism you cannot. Of course there are people who do not want to get ahead (too much hard work) yet they complain not about the work they do but about the others who are Richer than they. I call this 'Jealousy' (You have something I do not and it is not my fault that I don't have it. In fact, it is all your (the richer person's) fault).

To increase jobs you need capitalism, to increase jobs you need people working and buying things. In capitalism your wages are set by you. In socialism, they who control all tell you what you need and set your wages. Since they strive to help all, the wages, benefits are lower. Much like the communes of the 60's, they would raise enough food for the community and no more. Everybody that works gets to eat and everybody that works can share all the fruits of everybody's labor including anything else. If you do not work or you cost more than you are worth, you can leave or in the case of a state run socialism, you can DIE!

Have a nice day :>)
Bladerunner

 

[scott-atkinson]

Socialism is an economic system characterized by social ownership and control of the means of production and cooperative management of the economy, and a political philosophy advocating such a system. A socialist economic system is the organisational precept of production for use, meaning the production of goods and services to directly satisfy economic demand and human needs where objects are valued based on their use-value or utility. (keep in mind there are many forms of socialism or degrees but they still all are based on one word. CONTROL)


Capitalism is an economic system in which trade, industry and the means of production are controlled by private owners with the goal of making profits in a market economy. In a capitalist economy, the parties to a transaction typically determine the prices at which assets, goods, and services are exchanged.

Neither of these functions work, Socialism is too restrictive, and Capitalism breeds greed..

Lets remember the major depressions and recessions have occurred on Capitalism's watch, caused by Rich People, attempting to get richer with flagrant disregard for everything and anybody... Do Bankers ring a bell, Lehmans Brothers, Barings Bank and Nick Leeson.. and yet Bankers still get their bonuses despite bringing the western world to it's knees... pure unadulterated Greed, sanctioned by Greedy Governments, run by Greedy Politicians..All in the name of Capitalism..

I agree that Capitalism has it's merits and allows people who want to get on and make things better for themselves the opportunity to do it, but there has to be a limit on this, Money makes more Money, and the more you have the more you want...

Poor people want it, because they perceive their lives will be better for it, Rich people want more of it, because they do and can, and they do not want to be poor...

The cost of Utilities in this country is extortionate, Greed, nothing else, the cost of a holiday for your family during School Holidays is double sometimes treble the price than taking the children out of school... why, Greed, the tour operators know that they have a captive audience so they can charge what they want.. Greed

Another story if you will: Sometime in the 60's-70's a neighbor works for the state at minimum wage. He makes the conscious decision to forgo any extra education and yes, he has ample opportunity to get that education if he wants it. Instead he sticks with the security of the state job. You see it is hard to fire a state employee plus they are told they will be taken care of when they get old. I would also adventure to say that the state job of simply holding up a shovel was very appealing to him. Yes, his wife worked at the local shirt factory in order to help make ends meet. They raised two kids (boys) who followed in their fathers footsteps by getting a minimal wage job with the state. Why not, they have cut their lifestyle to enable them to live on the money coming in. Yes, all those cheap things that capitalistic production produces where a part of their home and did increase their prosperity. They were and are comfortable in their lifestyle. Three houses down, I and my wife lived in the same type of environment. The difference was, we wanted to get ahead of the game. We both worked a job, sometimes two jobs and went to school at the same time. Because of capitalism we were able to eventually leave that street. The other father is now retired getting a state pension, his adult kids are living there feeding off of that state pension with not a thought of getting ahead.

AS I have said, neither function works, and people will always be different, one persons Caviar will be another persons Meat and Two Veg, we are all different...

To all and especially Scott: Under Capitalism you can pull yourself up by the boot straps and have a little better lifetsyle. Under Socialism you cannot. Of course there are people who do not want to get ahead (too much hard work) yet they complain not about the work they do but about the others who are Richer than they. I call this 'Jealousy' (You have something I do not and it is not my fault that I don't have it. In fact, it is all your (the richer person's) fault).

Capitalism Breeds Greed, and that is one of the reasons for the breakdown of the family unit, which leads us back to this subject thread, parents spend all their time working, they do not have time or sometimes the inclination to bring up their children properly, so they rely on Minders, Nurseries to do that job for them, people who like the Capitalism system are only there doing a job, and in some cases couldn't give two hoots about your children...
Of course there will be stay at home parents who still do not bring up their children correctly, I think your example above of the state worker illustrates that, but parents having to work to keep their heads above water, driven by Greedy corporations is killing this society...

I expect in another 10 years, we will see another economic crash, perhaps next time it will be the one that finishes the world off, and plunges us into war... Yay for Capitalism...

 

[Vassago]

Every type of government and economic system can work. The problem that most oftenly arises comes from greed. Once greed is introduced into the mix, they all typically fail.

 

[Vassago]

Socialism is just as likely to induce some type of greed.

 

[scott-atkinson]

Every type of government and economic system can work. The problem that most oftenly arises comes from greed. Once greed is introduced into the mix, they all typically fail.

Exactly, Greed is the route of all evil in today's society...

Greed breeds Jealousy, Jealousy breeds resentment, Resentment breeds Bullying..

Whilst we have systems and Governments in place that allow Greed to prosper our society will never be fixed..

 

[scott-atkinson]

We need a mix between Socialism, Capitalism, and Communism...

Taking the best of each and combining it into one...

 

[AnthonyGerrard]

We now have the cooperative paying its bosses millions a year.

Bosses who aren't fit for the job, and a chairman whos on the crystal meth.


Greed is destroying all. Examples I can think of are clubs sitting on land, or in grand buildings, collected over generations through hard work, fundraising etc to produce facilities to benefit the members and community.

Now they are being sold off as new members join and see easy money and all that good work building up the assets is gone through modern greed.

Same with the building societies.

Should not be allowed.

 

[Libre]

Greed is not a product of Capitalism. It's a product of the human condition. Any economic system winds up benfitting some people more than others - depends on where you are positioned. Animals aren't greedy - for the most part. They take what they need for the moment and they don't worry about the future. Horses don't wonder if the weather will be favorable next season and if there will be hay to eat in the following. Humans have a much broader outlook. It's not just the moment - it's tomorrow and the next year and the next decade and the one after that. That's our nature. You can call it greed, but you can also call it forsight and planning for hard times. We all have a measure of some type of greed. If you were at a buffet and there were a tray of deviled eggs brought out (your favorite!) and immediately a line began to form - you would get on that line. If there were clearly enough eggs for everyone, you might let an elderly woman or a pregnant lady or a young child - who had arrived at the end of the line at the same time as you did - to go ahead. In this scenario, there is no need for greed and no competition for scarce resources. But now suppose the buffet is your main - or only - source of food. Suppose you saw that some people at the head of the line were taking more than they needed at the moment - they were "stocking up" for hard times to come. They were hoarding! You saw that there may NOT be enough eggs for everyone, and you could be caught up short by the time you got up to the tray. Now you might be more agressive and assertive about positioning yourself in a favorable position. Now, when you did get up to the tray, you might take more than you could eat at the moment - because since the eggs were becoming scarce, you wanted to lay in a good stock of them. Different economic systems might have different methods of distributing the eggs - but some people will want to figure out how to best position themselves to take advantage of the system no matter what the system is.

 

[scott-atkinson]

Greed is not a product of Capitalism. It's a product of the human condition. Any economic system winds up benfitting some people more than others - depends on where you are positioned. Animals aren't greedy - for the most part. They take what they need for the moment and they don't worry about the future. Horses don't wonder if the weather will be favorable next season and if there will be hay to eat in the following. Humans have a much broader outlook. It's not just the moment - it's tomorrow and the next year and the next decade and the one after that. That's our nature. You can call it greed, but you can also call it forsight and planning for hard times. We all have a measure of some type of greed. If you were at a buffet and there were a tray of deviled eggs brought out (your favorite!) and immediately a line began to form - you would get on that line. If there were clearly enough eggs for everyone, you might let an elderly woman or a pregnant lady or a young child - who had arrived at the end of the line at the same time as you did - to go ahead. In this scenario, there is no need for greed and no competition for scarce resources. But now suppose the buffet is your main - or only - source of food. Suppose you saw that some people at the head of the line were taking more than they needed at the moment - they were "stocking up" for hard times to come. They were hoarding! You saw that there may NOT be enough eggs for everyone, and you could be caught up short by the time you got up to the tray. Now you might be more agressive and assertive about positioning yourself in a favorable position. Now, when you did get up to the tray, you might take more than you could eat at the moment - because since the eggs were becoming scarce, you wanted to lay in a good stock of them. Different economic systems might have different methods of distributing the eggs - but some people will want to figure out how to best position themselves to take advantage of the system no matter what the system is.

Greed may not be a product of Capitalism, but under Capitalism it has been allowed to flourish unchecked, as in your scenario, we are all fighting for our share of Deviled Eggs and then some, some people want more than their share and they are not concerned if the Pregnant lady, or the Old Women gets any at all as long as they get what they perceive is their right to have...

Animals have no concept of greed as they do not live in am materialistic world, we as Humans are constantly bombarded with media saying what we should have, and what somebody else has, and why we should have this, and we are some how inferior to that person if we do not have it... that fuels our Greed..

Greed has always been present in the Human Genetic make up, but thousands of years ago, when the first Humans walked this earth, Greed was not prevalent, as we strived to stay alive not to accumulate, in our modern world we do not have that same struggle, so our Greed prospers... But interestingly, not everybody exhibits Greed tendencies, and we associate that trait with the Rich...

 

[Libre]

Greed has always been present in the Human Genetic make up, but thousands of years ago, when the first Humans walked this earth, Greed was not prevalent, as we strived to stay alive not to accumulate, in our modern world we do not have that same struggle, so our Greed prospers... But interestingly, not everybody exhibits Greed tendencies, and we associate that trait with the Rich...

I think we all exhibit greed tendencies - under certain conditions.
If something is abundant, or if I don't need it, I wouldn't exhibit greed.
But if that thing becomes scarce or essential - then I might.
Don't you think that in ancient times, a prime source of water or foods was jealously guarded and defended?

 

[scott-atkinson]

Don't you think that in ancient times, a prime source of water or foods was jealously guarded and defended?

Yes it was, but it was about Survival, the same could be said for a Lion protecting his hunting grounds from fellow Lions, it is about survival..


In our modern world, there are very few times where modern man has to survive, even the poor have benefits and food banks so they can live, not lavishly, but adequately...

Accumulating because you simply can, and accumulating because you have to are two completely different things...

A good example is a Senior Executive who I know, name retained for my own good... They earn a 6 figure salary, and because they have the money to, they employ a tax accountant to play the tax system so they are registered in a different country and only pay a fraction of the Income Tax that everybody else pays who works in the UK...

Not only are they getting richer simply because they can, they are doing it at the expense of the Tax Payer, meaning that the average Joe on the Street has to pay more tax to maintain Services... hence, Rich get Richer, Poor get Poorer..

Now, you could say this is just jealousy on my part, and you would probably be right in that view, if I was in that position I would probably do the same..

But it's not about Survival, it is about Greed..

 

[Libre]

Accumulating because you simply can, and accumulating because you have to are two completely different things...

Not really. They are different degrees of the same thing. No one knows exactly what their needs will be tomorrow. I don't dispute that there is excessive materialism in some of us. In modern times, survival has a different connotation than in ancient or prehistoric times. But we're driven by much the same emotions: avoidance of threat of loss (fear); enhancement of comfort and security (greed).
Fear and greed,
The two emotions that drive the financial markets, and probably what kept early hominids alive.
I realize this is an oversimplification - I'm boiling it down to its essentials.

 

[Dick7Access]

[FONT=&quot]This thread has inspired me to do a word study on greed.
[/FONT][FONT=&quot]The following are entries in two different dictionaries.
[/FONT]

1. Main Entry:greed, Pronunciation:*gr*d, Function:noun ,Etymology:back-formation from greedy
Date:1609 : a selfish and excessive desire for more of something (as money) than is needed [FONT=&quot] 2. intense and selfish desire for something, esp. wealth, power, or food.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]synonyms:[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]avarice[/FONT][FONT=&quot], [/FONT][FONT=&quot]cupidity[/FONT][FONT=&quot], [/FONT][FONT=&quot]acquisitiveness[/FONT][FONT=&quot], covetousness, [/FONT][FONT=&quot]rapacity[/FONT][FONT=&quot]; More[/FONT]

At first glance they do not make much sense to me. (than is needed) Who is to say how much is needed. Some one good argue from that point that anything after water, bread, and a shelter is excess.

[FONT=&quot]I next went to the Bible, and was surprised to find that (greed) is not mention one time (KJV). [/FONT]

). However, (greedy) is mention 6 times. a primitive root to break off, i.e. (usually) plunder; figurative to finish, or (intrans.) stop :- (be) covet (-ous), cut (off), finish, fulfill, gain (greedily), get, be given to [covetousness], greedy, perform, be wounded.
[FONT=&quot]—Strong's Talking Greek & Hebrew Dictionary[/FONT]

, (greedily) 3 times) a [FONT=&quot]longing[/FONT]; by implication a [FONT=&quot]delight[/FONT] (subjective [FONT=&quot]satisfaction[/FONT], objective a [FONT=&quot]charm[/FONT]) :- dainty, desire, × exceedingly, × greedily, lust (-ing), pleasant. —Strong's Talking Greek & Hebrew Dictionary

, (greediness) 1 time ). (by implication) [FONT=&quot]fraudulency, extortion[/FONT] :- covetous (-ness) practices, greediness—Strong's Talking Greek & Hebrew Dictionary

The Bible doesn’t condemn having possessions, money etc. What it does condemn is gaining the items by fraudulent meant. With that definition, (GREED) can certainly defines the six figure salary guy sending money off shore, or any illegal maneuver to avoid taxes to have extra money.to buy IPads for his kids. Guilty is also the 32 year old, who recently punches an 8 year old in the face to get an IPad.

 

[scott-atkinson]

Not really. They are different degrees of the same thing. No one knows exactly what their needs will be tomorrow. I don't dispute that there is excessive materialism in some of us. In modern times, survival has a different connotation than in ancient or prehistoric times. But we're driven by much the same emotions: avoidance of threat of loss (fear); enhancement of comfort and security (greed).
Fear and greed,
The two emotions that drive the financial markets, and probably what kept early hominids alive.
I realize this is an oversimplification - I'm boiling it down to its essentials.

Sorry but I disagree...

A person on Low Income, or Benefits, may have money today, but not tomorrow, so they try to accumulate as much as they can because they have to.

A Millionaire today, will still be a Millionaire tomorrow, so why do they have to try to be a double Millionaire, or own 6 houses instead of 5... they do so because they can

The Person on Low Income, Benefits (Poor Person) will stay Poor, and get Poorer day by day, unless they accumulate enough to prevent it..

The Millionaire, (Rich Person) will only get richer, it is very unlikely that they will ever get Poor

 

[scott-atkinson]

[FONT=&quot]This thread has inspired me to do a word study on greed.
[/FONT][FONT=&quot]The following are entries in two different dictionaries.
[/FONT]

The guy with the six figure salary, is not doing anything illegal, the loopholes in the tax law allow him to do that, but the reason that he can do that is because he has enough money to pay an expensive Tax Accountant to make it happen for him... so he can get richer..

The Government allows him to do this, and then raises taxes for everybody else because they are not getting enough Tax Revenue through...

The rich are in the riches pockets...

 

[scott-atkinson]

Not sure I have ever been jealous of someone who is greedy.

Of course I mean't Greed in one person breeds Jealousy in another person because of what the Greedy person has...

 

[Libre]

Sorry but I disagree...

A person on Low Income, or Benefits, may have money today, but not tomorrow, so they try to accumulate as much as they can because they have to.

A Millionaire today, will still be a Millionaire tomorrow, so why do they have to try to be a double Millionaire, or own 6 houses instead of 5... they do so because they can

The Person on Low Income, Benefits (Poor Person) will stay Poor, and get Poorer day by day, unless they accumulate enough to prevent it..

The Millionaire, (Rich Person) will only get richer, it is very unlikely that they will ever get Poor

Well, I see this a little differently. Other than the extremely wealthy and the extremely impoverished, everyone else is somewhere in the middle. A millionaire might seem rich by your standards, and a low income hourly wage earner might seem poor -but each of them is both richer and poorer than someone else. The millionaire might be seeing his/her empire crumble - the poor man might see a destitute soul and realize things are not so bad for him. I'm certainly not wealthy by my standards - I have to work for a paycheck and I can put some away every week but I don't live in luxury. But to the huddled masses in the 3rd world - I'm living like a king. It's all relative you know. Also - we're born into a competitive world - everything that lives has to snatch the goods away from someone else - whether they realize it or not. I don't see it so much as greed, it's the law of the jungle.
Again - this is NOT to ignore the fact that there are criminally greedy people out there - those who are already wealthy beyond imagination, yet steal from others - it goes on - and they justify it. So we probably don't disagree - I'm just taking a broader view of the topic, I think.

 

[Bladerunner]

Sorry but I disagree...

A person on Low Income, or Benefits, may have money today, but not tomorrow, so they try to accumulate as much as they can because they have to.

A Millionaire today, will still be a Millionaire tomorrow, so why do they have to try to be a double Millionaire, or own 6 houses instead of 5... they do so because they can

The Person on Low Income, Benefits (Poor Person) will stay Poor, and get Poorer day by day, unless they accumulate enough to prevent it..

The Millionaire, (Rich Person) will only get richer, it is very unlikely that they will ever get Poor

Why do you Care that they want another million or so? You must believe in wealth re-distribution.

Have a nice day :>)
Bladerunner

 

[Bladerunner]

[FONT="]This thread has inspired me to do a word study on greed.
[/FONT][FONT="]The following are entries in two different dictionaries.
[/FONT]

1 Timothy 6:10
Matthew 6:24

Have a nice day :>)
Bladerunner