Environmental Lip Service...(Deep breath)

[Access_guy49]

This post was sparked from the yellow school bus post. After reading over the discussion I noticed something. There are obviously a lot of people who buy into the things companies are doing to help the environment. Many of which are lip service. I will illustrate my point further below. I should mention that I am unaware of the situation in the UK and some of this may not apply. Also I should note that these are my own observations.

I will start with the comment made in the school bus post about running these buses on Bio. Some things to consider about bio diesels, does anyone know how much deep fryer grease it takes to run a bus? Multiply that by however many buses. It would hardly make a dent in the pollution output especially when you consider that you have to ship all the grease and you have to process it somewhere and then ship it back to the bus garage. You’re going to use 2 barrels of oil to save 1 barrel.

Ok away from fuels for a minute, Garbage disposal. In Ontario I know there has been a big push from some of the major super markets to purchase "green" bags. because this will save thousands of tons of garbage as these bags are re-usable and only cost a dollar. Lets really look at what is happening here for a second. The company looks like they are doing their part, the consumer is fronting the bill because they have to purchase the bags, and now people have to buy kitchen garbage bags for under the sink (typically) instead of using the old shopping bags, so unless you are a person who throws away hundreds of plastic bags instead of re-using them as garbage bags, you aren’t doing squat for the environment.

Drive through: Recently there has been a push to limit or stop drive throughs. A new food chain in London (Ontario) specializing in organic food has "done their part" by not having a drive through. Now most of you probably think this is a great idea, it should be taken with a grain of salt however. Consider the fact that when a car is warm and running at optimum temperature many of the measurable pollutants are almost nothing due to the fact that they get burned off in the catalytic converter (I have seen the test results to prove it, many cars blow 1 ppm or less for such things are co2.) However when a car starts up the catalytic converter is cold and does not do its job. In the first few minutes that car pollutes in the range of 80 times that of when it is warm. And that's still at Idle; if the driver decides to drive while the car is cold the numbers are even higher. So the 10 minutes in the drive through does no more damage to the environment than the person who went in, turned off the car, put more wear on the engine by starting it 30 minutes later and then driving it cold.

Green bins: In my city they are proposing green bins. This is a bin for bio garbage, which a truck comes around and picks up weekly. Oh and the tax payers front the bill of course! this is better than having a composter in your own backyard how? And really is bio garbage really the worst thing to have in the dumps? Hardly! But apparently making a bunch of plastic bins and driving trucks around all day to pick up stuff that could be composted helps the environment.

ok good enough for now, I’m interested to see who will hate what I say and who will have more to add.
Oh and it's true the only real way to fix things is to take some SERIOUS actions, this quick fix do your part almost painless bull...well its all just lip service.
If you really want to help the environment, its going to hurt.

 

[Colin@Toyota]

preach on brotha man!!

 

[GaryPanic]

decent post ..
but lets start with cooking oil
running vechiles of this - not nessaryly school buses but some lorries - now let do an ideal world

1 - lets collect the oil - lets use a truck/lorry running off biofeul to pick it up
makes sense -, ok the lorry has to take oil to be converted - how about where the lorry stays over night ???
now the oil is no longer in the sewage system - so you don't need to process the water as much - sewer systems get clogged up with fat/oils .
lets use a few council vechicles to run of oil we are reusing the oil that would otherwise be thrown down the drain -
saving money (bio fuel is cheaper than petrol/diesel) in the UK is a £1 per litre - biofuel is about 65 pence to 70 ish .

Plastic bags- are an issue - and here in the UK - some towns are in trail banning them and using paper or cornstarch paper ..the jury is still out on these .

There is a bus being run on sheeps urine in wales - and while this is a PR stunt - its a trial on alternative energy - so it might lead somewhere

Methane gas collectors work in the country and we had a posting on this which was pretty good - really only viable to country folk - not townie

here in the UK they are considering weight your rubbish and charging you for it -(bad idea as most people will burn it to reduce the weight )

we here in Kent (South east of England - below London and to the right )
have bi-weekly rubblish - bio collections 1 week rubbish the other biodegradable stuff. - not a fan of this - but then i have a large enough garden to compost most of my bio stuff anyway


As to drive throughs -- unheard of here in the UK - i think we have a few Macdonald drive throughs - but other than that you get out and do the shopping .

the solution well here's my pennies worth
1- reduce the packaging at source
we as consumers are lazy - so do it for us)
2- minor changes do have an effect- if we all replaced a light bulb with an energy efficent one - this would have an effect - small change by the individual large impact by the masses.
3 Bring back sailing ships certain items don't need to be there in a hurry so using wind power to move goods kinda makes sense .

4 try to buy local whereever possible - I don't know why its more expenseive - but it is

5 Grown your own (I know its not always an option)
I want my daughter (nearly 2) to grown up and know that carrots come from the ground and not the supermarket same with fruit -(I get a bit of exercise from digging as well).

these are just a few ideas
others are if your going for a walk take a bag with your an pick up 5-10 bits of rubbish - if we all did this then the ground would be a lot tidier.

if we want to really go for it then all new building would have to have solar panels- super insolation .

if we want to really push the boat out then impose a fine on buildings that don't have loft insolution - make the fine say £300.00 - then employ someone to go round and check all buildings and if you don't have this loft insolation then you have 4 weeks to get ti sorted or face a fine and then have to pay to have the insolution put in .

 

[FoFa]

Yea, it does appear that a lot of the "Better Ideas" when actually investigated (not the "sounds good to me" crowd not withstanding) turn out to actually cause more problem than they solve. It would appear the little bit by a lot of folks is a better place to start. Could you imagine the savings if say (I live in the South here in the US of A) most homes just had a couple of solar panels that generated a bit of electricity each? Megawatts of power that Coal or Gas would not have to be burned. But NO, we are not allowed to install them. So we use florescent lights instead of incandescent (cuts my lighting from about 1500 watts to 325 watts), plant trees to shade the house so the AC is somewhat less. I do have a compost bin. An easy one, just an old plastic trash can with holes in the bottom I drop bio-garbage in, and earth worms when I run across them.
Do I recycle, nope. Where is the saving is driving 12 miles and back to recycle a couple pounds of cans? Seems there are some real changes that need to be put in place before some of these do become effective.

 

[The_Doc_Man]

My own favorite is the fuel-cell cars. Sounds great, environmentally friendly - but the motors and cells burn out and you have to buy something just about as expensive as the original car every 5 years or so. So you have this expensive, exotic-metals motor that you had to replace - or the whole car - and its METAL. It isn't bio-degradable unless you are willing to wait for it to corrode to sand.

Solar cells as a REPLACEMENT (not supplement) for coal plants used to be fun to discuss. Until someone did the math and showed that it would take solar cells the size of the state of Oregon to run one large city. And of course, since photosynthesis depends on sunlight that would be intercepted by solar cells, everything under the cells DIES. Eco-friendly? Not! The idea of putting cells on a roof as a SUPPLEMENT is good, since that is otherwise wasted square footage.

I've also seen someone who made a low-power heat engine by making a black roof with pipes running through the roof to absorb and transport the heat elsewhere. Not photoelectric, but using solar energy absorption as a heat source anyway. That appears to have some merit. Again, it relieves the heating system of having to raise the temperature of the water that extra three to five degrees.

Wind turbines are another good idea for some areas that have natural thermal gradients that lead to onshore/offshore breezes on a regular basis. Heck, the math is hard but I think you can actually reduce the temperature of the planet if you put up enough wind turbines. Has to do with the fact that heat energy is being USED when the wind drives the turbine, so in theory that air has to be cooler after pushing a turbine than before it hit the turbine. It might take a pretty good thermometer to drive that experiment, but the math says it MUST be that way based on the laws of thermodynamics.

 

[rsmonkey]

human contribution to global warming is something like 5.38% ergo quit all this global warming crap and go with the flow its a natural cycle of the world & history proves this (Iceage's etc...) sure we're speeding it up a little but in the words of Agent Smith in the matrix & Hans Blix in Team America: "It is inevitable" all this crap about Honda prius's being better for the environment is aload crap.. i mean the fuel consumption on a prius is as honda claim 57.6 which is bullsh*t & obviously stated throughout the numerous car reviews it is actually more around the 45-50mpg mark.. oh and did i mention the big f*off battery on the prius needs replacing every 5 years.. now that is some serious pollutants rite there! So not only is the fuel efficiency the same as your average diesel car it also sh*ts out a nice big battery... niice you will probably find in the long run that the prius causes more pollution as an overall statistic. Oh i did i mention that my VW Golf GT TDi 2001 does 70mpg if i drive it like a saint and 60mpg if i put my foot down.
Sorry for the rant I've had enough of all this global warming bollocks... so we mite be speeding it up a cuple hundred thousand years, sod it. & the interest of global warming specifically focused upon the output of motor vehicles & planes is ridiculous. The average output from a plane is mile better then aspects such as the fuel powered trains/boats etc.. Also remember that that beefburger your eating, well the original herd (i would say cow but i very much doudt that meat in a burger is from one particular cow anymore) it came from collectively produce's a more damaging effect on the environment than the human race as a whole. blah blah blah its a never ending argument and dont get me wrong Im not saying we arnt contributing I'm just saying that in comparison to other contributors we are but a small amount & thats why i get so annoyed at everyone going "omg global warming" I strikes me that the world is very similar to the human body in the fact that everything seems to be bad for it you just have to take it in moderation thus im saying get a decent fuel performer car if your local transport is crap (i.e. the majority of the uk), recycle etc.. etc... etc... Oh and i like the wind turbines idea because they look friggin awsome !

 

[GaryPanic]

human contribution to global warming is something like 5.38% ergo quit all this global warming crap and go with the flow its a natural cycle of the world & history proves this (Iceage's etc...) sure we're speeding it up a little but in the words of Agent Smith in the matrix & Hans Blix in Team America: "It is inevitable" all this crap about Honda prius's being better for the environment is aload crap.. i mean the fuel consumption on a prius is as honda claim 57.6 which is bullsh*t & obviously stated throughout the numerous car reviews it is actually more around the 45-50mpg mark.. oh and did i mention the big f*off battery on the prius needs replacing every 5 years.. now that is some serious pollutants rite there! So not only is the fuel efficiency the same as your average diesel car it also sh*ts out a nice big battery... niice you will probably find in the long run that the prius causes more pollution as an overall statistic. Oh i did i mention that my VW Golf GT TDi 2001 does 70mpg if i drive it like a saint and 60mpg if i put my foot down.
Sorry for the rant I've had enough of all this global warming bollocks... so we mite be speeding it up a cuple hundred thousand years, sod it. & the interest of global warming specifically focused upon the output of motor vehicles & planes is ridiculous. The average output from a plane is mile better then aspects such as the fuel powered trains/boats etc.. Also remember that that beefburger your eating, well the original herd (i would say cow but i very much doudt that meat in a burger is from one particular cow anymore) it came from collectively produce's a more damaging effect on the environment than the human race as a whole. blah blah blah its a never ending argument and dont get me wrong Im not saying we arnt contributing I'm just saying that in comparison to other contributors we are but a small amount & thats why i get so annoyed at everyone going "omg global warming" I strikes me that the world is very similar to the human body in the fact that everything seems to be bad for it you just have to take it in moderation thus im saying get a decent fuel performer car if your local transport is crap (i.e. the majority of the uk), recycle etc.. etc... etc... Oh and i like the wind turbines idea because they look friggin awsome !

blimey thats some rant -- did you stop to breath - feel better now thats off your chest (LOL)
most of this is correct- but we do need to do more if not for the global warnming - just to keep the country tidy ...
replace coal burners with wind generators will imporve the air quality - even nuclear would be better -clear (as long as it does not go tits up)
wave generators will replace gas /coal etc
as to transport ..thats a hard one

 

[Pauldohert]

Not giving a Nobel peace prize to a man with a carbon footprint the size of his NIMBY fat arse would have sent out the right message. (thats if you beleive in the western corporate imperialist version of the Da Vinci code called Global Warming, would be daft to give him the prize if you don't beleive in Global warming also)

I shall be boycotting dynamite as a result of this farce.

 

[rsmonkey]

exactly instead of everyone raving about global warming just stfu and wait for the government to enact common sense policies such was wave / wind turbines etc..

 

[BarryMK]

if you don't beleive in Global warming )
QUOTE]

Global Warming prediction, justification and scaremongering has developed into a multi millon (perhaps multi billion) dollar, worldwide money-making machine. There are so many fat cat politicians, academics and "consultatnts" milking it that whether it is a fact or not (and I side with the sceptics here) is irrelevant.

I have no problem with the human race taking steps to preserve the planet (it seems to make a certain sense) by better husbandry of resources but climate change has been with us since day one.

If our (UK) politicians really cared about finite resources they'd have kicked the building industry up the arse and made it illegal to build anything that failed to meet Finnish standards of insulation, set up grants to help Joe Public upgrade their properties with insulation and energy saving devices and created a programme of railway buiding to get the bloody, fume belching lorries off our cramped roads.

 

[GaryPanic]

new builds should have solar panels - the cost at this stage is relavtively cheap .
one of the building companies(begins with a S ) all of their builds use grey water collectors for use in the loo (its filtered etc ) and they have been doing this for about 7-8 years - ok its not a big thing but its a start
reduces the water bill(remember all new builds have water meters -so saves money )

I have looked in to wind generators on a normal home and the general view is that first insulate your home to the max , then solar (only if you house faces that way) and wind only if its viable being in the S.E of england and not on the coast - not an option

 

[statsman]

Both sides have made excellent points but the main contibutor to the Global warning effect remains industry. While we can all make contributions in our personal lives, how about governments putting aside a certain percentage of the annual budget for low interest or even no interest loans to industry to clean up their act.
As a start, coal fired electricity plants can be converted to natural gas. Burns a lot cleaner.

 

[GaryPanic]

THe UK is already doing this - slightly different;y than you outline ..
but what it needs to do is go in with boots on - right if you polute you get fined - given them a reasonable time to fix and then if not re-fine set another time - big fine time (and I mean big) also imprison the directors of the company - that should get some mo0vement ...

int he UK and Euroep you can trade your pollution - so if I save my CO2 emissions and I get below the treshhold - i can sell my extra lee way off to a company that will fail to met its target and there by offset the fine ..
the idea is noce but the treshold was set was a minor reduction - it should of been 25% - but it was probably 5% ....
barstards...

 

[Rich]

new builds should have solar panels - the cost at this stage is relavtively cheap .

With the amont of sun and heat we get here they're pointless

 

[rsmonkey]

tru rich tru.. it has been a sucky sucky year...

Both sides have made excellent points but the main contibutor to the Global warning effect remains industry

its volcano's actually bastard things attribute like 60+% then at the other end of the scale its humans. & remember alotta people get confuse with Global Warming and Pollution in general. But if stats man was just talking about humans then yes industry & governemnt ineptitude is the king of the castle!

 

[Access_guy49]

Ok well, some interesting points so far. I do agree that Global warming will happen regardless. Lets be honnest it wasn't exactly cold in the time of the T-rex. So clearly it is a cycle.
being a more efficient species regardless of your global warming position is a good idea. most of the stuff is logical. insulate your house as to not spend as much to heat it. Why pee in your drinking water?
Some of the stuff isn't as simple though. It's all about money, which is why solar isn't on every residence around the world. Nuclear is by far our best bet from a practical energy source aspect. Wind and waves and geothermal are all nice but still too expensive to be done at a scale that will power the majority. That being said, there are 2 main problems. The uk could stop pollution COMPLETELY come tomarrow and they are still going to be breathing in crap. Pollution from the US (i know i'm singling out the US and there are PLENTY of other countries i could use) anyways..pollution from the U.S does not stay over the U.S countries need to work as a single global entity (good luck) in order to do anything truely constructive. If Pollution in the U.S was banned, well all the companies would move to Mexico or India or China or something. so what good would it do the U.S NONE! because now the U.S would be out tons of money in economic growth and still be breathing in pollution. if someone has a fix for that problem please voice it loudly!
Second big problem is obviously power. We are all power hungry, the problem is our power systems. Wind turbines might turn at night for example, if nobody has their lights on then all that "clean power" was useless. power has to be used as it's made (more or less) and we need a way to change that. i'm thinking something along the lines of Hydrogen production with un-used energy from windturbines or any alternate source for that matter, even Nuclear would be more effecient if un-used energy could be stored in another form.

 

[Pauldohert]

THe UK is already doing this - slightly different;y than you outline ..
but what it needs to do is go in with boots on - right if you polute you get fined - given them a reasonable time to fix and then if not re-fine set another time - big fine time (and I mean big) also imprison the directors of the company - that should get some mo0vement ...

int he UK and Euroep you can trade your pollution - so if I save my CO2 emissions and I get below the treshhold - i can sell my extra lee way off to a company that will fail to met its target and there by offset the fine ..
the idea is noce but the treshold was set was a minor reduction - it should of been 25% - but it was probably 5% ....
barstards...

Why fine me for having no insulation - I can't even afford to turn the heating or lights on anyway (they were cut off!) but the queen can easily afford to insulate - leave the 50,000 lights on and heat a palace - and you don't fine her at all.

 

[GaryPanic]

still works -its sun light not heat that matters on phot whatsits

check the solar sites and there feed backs

 

[GaryPanic]

Why fine me for having no insulation - I can't even afford to turn the heating or lights on anyway (they were cut off!) but the queen can easily afford to insulate - leave the 50,000 lights on and heat a palace - and you don't fine her at all.

she has her own water generator --

 

[Pauldohert]

Add me to the civil list and everyone else - and we'll all get one too.