Habemus papam! (1 Viewer)

[Thales750]

Perhaps it is more that he knows what he and the Bible tell them to think? Many other leaders have dictated the thoughts of their "citizens" throughout much of history. Stalin, Lenin, Hitler, Pol Pot, Mao Tse Tung, Beria, Kruschev, ... that list goes on for quite a while. Add in "influencers" like Marx and Muhammad and the Ayatollah Khomeini. THEY knew what their people / followers believed. That's quite amazing too.

Trump.

 

[Isaac]

Except that Jesus wanted folks to follow his example. ALL folks, He wanted rich people to give to the poor. He wanted people to follow his lead/ And, for the record, Roman government wasn't big on subsidies for the poor.

Matt 19:21 Jesus answered, “If you want to be perfect, go, sell your possessions and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven. Then come, follow me.”

But we DO give to the poor. Only we do it personally not through setting up a government that steals it from our paychecks in the form of Stealing

This is a common mistake that people make, thinking that if we are to follow Jesus we have to support a liberal government. But Jesus never said anything about how to set up a government. He said that we should give personally to the poor which is exactly what I do. And every Christian I know does that as well.

 

[Pat Hartman]

And every Christian I know does that as well.

It is only the liberals who think that they are the arbiters of charity and they believe that they can take money from me and give it to those they deem more worthy. And I'm supposed to consider that charity and not theft. And they call me names when I object.

 

[Thales750]

But we DO give to the poor. Only we do it personally not through setting up a government that steals it from our paychecks in the form of Stealing

This is a common mistake that people make, thinking that if we are to follow Jesus we have to support a liberal government. But Jesus never said anything about how to set up a government. He said that we should give personally to the poor which is exactly what I do. And every Christian I know does that as well.

And yet, the heart and soul of conservative platforms is to reduce the taxes on our wealthiest earners.

 

[Pat Hartman]

And yet, the heart and soul of conservative platforms is to reduce the taxes on our wealthiest earners.

A tax code needs to be rational and to some degree fair. If you make the tax rate 99.9% for the wealthy, what do you think happens? Let me help you out. They buy members of Congress who give them targeted deductions that will reduce their actual tax rate. Only the ignorant don't know this is happening. Ignorant isn't the same as stupid. Ignorant is unknowing and not caring enough to educate yourself. If the deductions are insufficient, the rich find a way to get themselves out of the clutches of the taxing authority. They leave high tax states for low tax states. They move their corporate headquarters to Bermuda or some other tax haven. If push comes to shove, they give up their US citizenship and only come here to visit.

The fairest tax system is a graduated rate with lots of small steps so that even the lowest income workers pay some small amount of tax and the highest income workers pay the highest rate. There are no deductions with the possible exception of a per family member dollar value. Each family member reduces your income by x dollars. If you earn money, you pay income tax. Sales taxes are the most regressive because the poor pay a much higher percentage of their income to purchase the necessities of life. There should be no tax on food. That is sort of true with our current system but there are exceptions. There should be no tax on medicine. There should be no tax on clothing under $x per item. Pick a number. $100 is rational in todays environment. Maybe $200 would be better since you can no longer buy a decent suit jacket for less than $100 unless you find a great sale. We're probably up to ~ $400 for a low end men's suit. There should be no tax on utilities. Think about necessities of life. None of those things should be taxed. There should be no tax on Social Security or disability payments. That gives the biggest tax breaks to the lowest income workers. But unless everyone who votes has skin in the game, the tax system is grossly unfair because the low income people are always too willing to vote for the charlatans who promise them stuff for "free". They need to know that if they vote for higher taxes, they will be impacted also.

 

[moke123]

the tax system is grossly unfair because the low income people are always too willing to vote for the charlatans who promise them stuff for "free".

And the rich are too willing to vote for and finance the guy who'll cut his taxes (a.k.a. free stuff) at the expense of the poor.

the rich find a way to get themselves out of the clutches of the taxing authority. They leave high tax states for low tax states.

Ma. has a millionaires tax and guess what . . .

https://www.axios.com/local/boston/2025/04/29/millionaires-massachusetts-income-surtax-increase

Massachusetts has seen a 38.6% jump in the number of millionaire residents since voters approved a 4% surtax on high earners in 2022.

 

[Thales750]

And the rich are too willing to vote for and finance the guy who'll cut his taxes (a.k.a. free stuff) at the expense of the poor.



Ma. has a millionaires tax and guess what . . .

https://www.axios.com/local/boston/2025/04/29/millionaires-massachusetts-income-surtax-increase

A tax code needs to be rational and to some degree fair. If you make the tax rate 99.9% for the wealthy, what do you think happens? Let me help you out. They buy members of Congress who give them targeted deductions that will reduce their actual tax rate. Only the ignorant don't know this is happening. Ignorant isn't the same as stupid. Ignorant is unknowing and not caring enough to educate yourself. If the deductions are insufficient, the rich find a way to get themselves out of the clutches of the taxing authority. They leave high tax states for low tax states. They move their corporate headquarters to Bermuda or some other tax haven. If push comes to shove, they give up their US citizenship and only come here to visit.

Fair has nothing to do with it. It's about making the country stronger. No matter what you believe, automation is gong to end working to get ahead. That is a bygone era. It you people have your way, the solution will be to starve out the poor and the middle class. The answer is that the wealthy will pay all the taxes and the rest of us will get a sustenance stipend , or die. When that happens we will see a return to small businesses, a healthier middle class, and services for mentally ill and the sick.

You are the one without vision, and not everyone that sees things you can't, are necessarily liberal.

 

[Pat Hartman]

Why would anyone work in your world if there was no profit to it? That's the part that Star Trek doesn't go into. In their world without money, people still have jobs and they do them but why bother when you get what you need and can lose yourself in drugs and the mindless oblivion of gaming?

 

[Isaac]

And yet, the heart and soul of conservative platforms is to reduce the taxes on our wealthiest earners.

Again and again and again I seem to have to say this, it's a matter of forcibly giving through government withdrawals versus personally giving.

Those of us who are conservative Christians give plenty of money to charity into the poor but we prefer to actually do it. Not have the government withdraw it from our paycheck and redistribute it as they prefer.
Every time that I get paid I give several hundred to charity. That's the bare minimum before any extra offerings. But I don't want it taken out of my paycheck and given to the government

 

[Pat Hartman]

Not have the government withdraw it from our paycheck and redistribute it as they prefer.

The additional problem with the government stealing from Isaac and me to give to you is the wastefulness of it. Every member of Congress with his hand in the til gets a piece of the money before it gets to its intended recipient. Or maybe that's the whole point.

 

[Thales750]

Again and again and again I seem to have to say this, it's a matter of forcibly giving through government withdrawals versus personally giving.

Those of us who are conservative Christians give plenty of money to charity into the poor but we prefer to actually do it. Not have the government withdraw it from our paycheck and redistribute it as they prefer.
Every time that I get paid I give several hundred to charity. That's the bare minimum before any extra offerings. But I don't want it taken out of my paycheck and given to the government

So? This isn't about charity. the vast amount of government spending is about employment. Employment creates domestic product. The more contribution the wealthiest make, and the more that is distributed (pay checks) to the lower classes, the more the economy thrives. people that believe that the wealthiest pay enough, are saying they are happy paying more.

 

[Thales750]

Why would anyone work in your world if there was no profit to it? That's the part that Star Trek doesn't go into. In their world without money, people still have jobs and they do them but why bother when you get what you need and can lose yourself in drugs and the mindless oblivion of gaming?

there you go with extremes again. I hope you live long enough to see the future you think your world view is creating. You want a world were everyone is poor, except the ultra rich.
You know,, like that other dark ages.

 

[Pat Hartman]

Employment creates domestic product.

The government creates NOTHING. Everything it has, it has because it took it from the people.

there you go with extremes again.

You claim to be a student of history. Tell us what happened with the Mayflower colony when they tried socialism. Economic systems where some folks live off the dole while the others generously support them last only until the workers stop allowing themselves to be used or you run out of OP's money. Atlas Shrugged is a good example from literature that also uses hyperbole which you clearly don't understand.

 

[Thales750]

The government creates NOTHING. Everything it has, it has because it took it from the people.

You claim to be a student of history. Tell us what happened with the Mayflower colony when they tried socialism. Economic systems where some folks live off the dole while the others generously support them last only until the workers stop allowing themselves to be used or you run out of OP's money. Atlas Shrugged is a good example from literature that also uses hyperbole which you clearly don't understand.

You keep claming I am too stupid to understand, And yet, one of the fundamental axioms of economics is the Economic Multiplier, commonly referred to as circulation.
I would be cautious of calling people stupid if I were you.

 

[The_Doc_Man]

I would be cautious of calling people stupid if I were you.

And yet you have have no hesitation in calling us uneducated or unable to see your great truth. If it is so fiddlin' great, why is it so obscure. You are at least IMPLYING that YOU thing WE are stupid. At the very least, you have implied it many times. It is one of the reasons I've stepped back a bit. I'm tired of your implied superiority. You have declined to explain yourself more fully because somehow you think a PhD chemist won't be able to understand your ideas. I don't have to come here to be insulted. I can just tune the TV to a liberal news program.

 

[Thales750]

And yet you have have no hesitation in calling us uneducated or unable to see your great truth. If it is so fiddlin' great, why is it so obscure. You are at least IMPLYING that YOU thing WE are stupid. At the very least, you have implied it many times. It is one of the reasons I've stepped back a bit. I'm tired of your implied superiority. You have declined to explain yourself more fully because somehow you think a PhD chemist won't be able to understand your ideas. I don't have to come here to be insulted. I can just tune the TV to a liberal news program.

What are you talking about? She called me stupid again, I mention a fundamental aspect of economics and advise her to stop saying people are stupid.
Why are you not spending energy telling her to stop being obstinate? She is an order of magnitude more insulting than I am. I don't get this. Her actions are repeatedly indefensible, and you side with her, and protect her.

What gives?

 

[Thales750]

And yet you have have no hesitation in calling us uneducated or unable to see your great truth. If it is so fiddlin' great, why is it so obscure. You are at least IMPLYING that YOU thing WE are stupid. At the very least, you have implied it many times. It is one of the reasons I've stepped back a bit. I'm tired of your implied superiority. You have declined to explain yourself more fully because somehow you think a PhD chemist won't be able to understand your ideas. I don't have to come here to be insulted. I can just tune the TV to a liberal news program.

I have explained in detail the flaws of believing that trickle down works, the tax breaks for the ultra rich are not productive. You give me the tired old argument every time. they've earned it, the need incentive... You are set in your ways. you wont admit that the breakup of the robber barons was good, that the dollar is backed by oil, that the country was actually great when the tax rate was 90% +.

The list goes on. You probably think that our medical system is great and all those commies in Japan, and Europe, are suffering from not having it. There 90 years olds are laughing at us and our stupidity.

There are no easy answers, but trickle down is one of the biggest problem in the US today. The biggest tool for this is Citizens United.

 

[Thales750]

And yet you have have no hesitation in calling us uneducated or unable to see your great truth.

there is no great truth, there's a bunch of people brainwashing folks into a dogma that is actually bad for them. Jonesville all over again. Cheers.

 

[The_Doc_Man]

I will be honest here. It is a matter of perception and you CANNOT possibly expect everyone's viewpoint to match your own. To do so is a combination of silly and arrogant. We have given you reasons why many of your comments fly in the face of human nature. You blow off those comments. You can no better get through to us than we can get to you. You are preaching to a diverse choir.

Assuming we could find a huge collection of experts on this topic, we could lay them end to end and they STILL couldn't reach a consensus. That is the nature of people. YOU don't seem to notice that your arguments fall on deaf ears. I have, as I said, started to step away from this because I at least know the definition of futility... doing the same thing over and over again in the same way, hoping for a better result next time.

 

[Thales750]

I will be honest here. It is a matter of perception and you CANNOT possibly expect everyone's viewpoint to match your own. To do so is a combination of silly and arrogant. We have given you reasons why many of your comments fly in the face of human nature. You blow off those comments. You can no better get through to us than we can get to you. You are preaching to a diverse choir.

Assuming we could find a huge collection of experts on this topic, we could lay them end to end and they STILL couldn't reach a consensus. That is the nature of people. YOU don't seem to notice that your arguments fall on deaf ears. I have, as I said, started to step away from this because I at least know the definition of futility... doing the same thing over and over again in the same way, hoping for a better result next time.

She said I am stupid, and you are lecturing me. i think that about covers it. Your grand kids are not going to have the opportunities you have had. And know this, your political beliefs are part of that decline. This administration is taking the exact kinds of actions that other idiot took in the great depression. And no one is doing anything about the formation of the an aristocracy. You remember the inteligencia supporting the return of the King, long live the Kings.