Is downloaded software unethical? (1 Viewer)

[Saphirah]

So what is more ethical? Buying a key from a cheap reseller while potential harming the developer? Or to crack the game?
Both seems pretty bad to me.

So just buy the damn software. There is no excuse to steal someone's product.
It does not matter if you say one can create unlimited copies without any costs. The cost is not in the material but in the development.

 

[NauticalGent]

Do you accept that for years everybody says China & Russia have been the top Piracy countries?

Not that I am in the "know" on this subject, but I personally have never heard that before. As far as "hacking" goes, I HAVE heard these allegations towards both of those countries.

When I sat in a US Government cyber-threat brief back in 2008, both China and Russia were mentioned...but...we were told that the biggest offender to cyber-threat/espionage to the US was France.

What was NOT discussed was how much the US does the very same thing to the rest of the world.

 

[NauticalGent]

So just buy the damn software. There is no excuse to steal someone's product.

 

[The_Doc_Man]

Before I retired, I received briefings on a regular basis, some of which involved SECRET clearance issues. I cannot discuss WHAT was being attacked or HOW it was being set up, but I have since seen some of the material reported on unclassified sites (not all of which were government).

The biggest hackers in the world were China, Russia, the Ukraine, and the Czech Republic. Most of the hacking in the briefings was government related but there was discussion that some of the hackers "moonlighted" to hack commercial ventures for profit, since there IS such a thing as economic warfare.

 

[Lightwave]

I think the best position is to try and give something back if at all possible. Even for open source... At the end of the day if it adds value for you the value should be proporational to the value you get from it...

Yes we are often forced into situations especially in markets that lack transparancy ( medicine and software are good examples ) where it is difficult to understand the value that you will get from the product for sale and as a result its really difficult to tell whether the price you are being charged is worth it and it can open up the buyer to exploitation. Its a problem of asymmetric information between the buyer and the seller. I think Kenneth Arrows wrote about it.

Asymmetry of Information

 

[Steve R.]

Just to inflame the conversation a bit. Why worry about an abstract civilized concept such a "ethics"?
Consider what is going on in other areas of society. We have radical fringe groups proclaim that "ethics" are elitist bourgeoisie concepts to be abolished and they are apparently succeeding for now. Consider that even law enforcement is "endorsing" criminal behavior by not prosecuting certain crimes. A criminal offense that seems not to be considered criminal any more: should you be a member of an "oppressed" group, you are entitled to take what you need.

 

[Sun_Force]

You may have heard about this. If not, Chinese hackers compromised iphone 13 with IOs 15.

iPhone 13 Pro, Windows 10, Google Chrome HACKED, but not Xiaomi Mi 11

Chinese hackers recently managed to compromise the iPhone 13 Pro running iOS 15, Windows 10, Google Chrome, Microsoft Exchange, Ubuntu 20, Adobe PDF and many others during the Tianfu Cup held in China. Xiaomi Mi 11 remained hack-proof.

tech.hindustantimes.com

 

[AccessBlaster]

I would assume they have a backdoor into the iPhone being one of the leading components manufacturers.

 

[Sun_Force]

I would assume they have a backdoor into the iPhone being one of the leading components manufacturers.

They broke into the OS not the hardware. Hardware is made in China. The software is not.

 

[AccessBlaster]

This happened in 2016

An Israeli company is reportedly helping the FBI crack the San Bernardino iPhone

The Verge is about technology and how it makes us feel. Founded in 2011, we offer our audience everything from breaking news to reviews to award-winning features and investigations, on our site, in video, and in podcasts.

www.theverge.com

The FBI "has been reportedly using the services of the Israeli-based company Cellebrite in its effort to break the protection on a terrorist's locked iPhone, according to experts in the field familiar with the case," Ynet reports. The Verge reached out to Cellebrite yesterday afternoon for comment and hasn’t yet heard back.

 

[Pat Hartman]

The fact that you can get older versions of Office (but which work perfectly well) online through resellers is a long and widespread thing.
I don't think there's anything unethical, illegal, questionable or anything like that, about it (?)

I haven't read one in a long time but, I'm pretty sure the Office license prohibits resale.

It never ceases to disappoint me that so many developers are OK with stealing the intellectual property created by other developers.

When I lived in Kuwait in the 70's, music was still being sold on cassettes. I never saw a single legal cassette for sale. Every shop carried only pirated copies. You could tell by the covers and the lack of shrink wrapping.

 

[The_Doc_Man]

I haven't read one in a long time but, I'm pretty sure the Office license prohibits resale.

OEM licenses may have exceptions, Pat. It was years ago that I worked for a Digital Equipment Corp licensed re-seller, but we could sell almost any software you wanted for PDP-11s, which at the time were pretty good platforms. (Showing my age when I say that, though...)

 

[Sun_Force]

I haven't read one in a long time but, I'm pretty sure the Office license prohibits resale.

"Reselling compliant software licences is perfectly legal. The law is clear on the licences that can be sold: neither buyers nor sellers have anything to worry about," said Cécile Grégoire, business development manager at second-hand software distributor, NearlyNewSoftware.

Software publishers cannot legally restrict the resale of second-hand software licences. The European Court of Justice, sitting as a Grand Chamber of 15 judges, clarified this in UsedSoft v Oracle.

Is second-hand software illegal? | Computer Weekly

The action by Federation Against Software Theft to suspend one of its members confuses users over legal second user licences.

www.computerweekly.com

 

[Pat Hartman]

As I said, I haven't read a MS license agreement in years and I never read one for PDP software which would have had a different license agreement. Hopefully, they changed to reflect the legal ruling. This was an EU case. I live in the US.

If reselling software is now legal everywhere, that would explain the switch to the subscription model. How did that work for everyone? The big guys seem to always have a way to make an end run around the goalie.

I was recently looking for a new version of Quicken and they've jumped on board the subscription model also. Although, I can still buy a version that runs on my PC and not in the cloud. We take our blessings where they come.

 

[Jon]

The percentage of population would be perhaps a better figure to look at regarding piracy, as opposed to the total count. China has so many people living there that they are like 30 countries in population numbers!

 

[Isaac]

@Isaac
I really don't know. but I will do a research on this. In the meantime be honest with the following questions:

1- Do you accept that for years everybody says China & Russia have been the top Piracy countries?
2- Do you personally believe that ?
IF yes :
3- Why the numbers were not questionable for you? Di you ever asked yourself "Isn't it by nature something you could never know?" .

I've seen so many TV programs discussing piracy in Asia and mostly in China, but I have not even seen once somebody ask how do the figures have been captured.
You know why? I think because human by nature feels some kind of pleasure attacking others.
It's OK as far as it's the neighbor. If it's me, check the validity of the data first.


The graph I posted were from Statista. You didn't even bother to check it out. For you knowledge, Statista is a PAID web site that works with data and most of famous universities' students world wide use their data as the base of their researches. A simple data goes over several hundred dollars. Not that I say it's %100 safe to believe what they offer, but it's always interesting for me when Asia, China, Russia, Iran or these kind of countries are under question, nobody doubts the data. But as soon as somebody offer something against US, UK, Fr or others the source is questionable.

This one is $39

Global visits to music piracy sites 2021 | Statista

In the third quarter of 2020 music piracy sites worldwide displayed around 3.24 billion visits, whilst in the corresponding quarter of 2021 the visits' number rose to approximately 3.89 billion.

www.statista.com

You may not.
But to be honest, to me it seems that you are.

I can see why it would seem like I am defending the US. But truly, I was just struck by the question in my mind "how can anyone put forth a chart showing black market volume, it seems un-knowable" - that's all.

Trust me, I am not a person who defends the "virtue" of the USA at all costs. Just to throw out something brutal to prove my point, I'll say this one random thing I believe: MANY Americans (not sure what %) have gotten quite lazy. Just that simple - lazy, lazy, lazy.

Ok, that's done.

1. Yes, I accept that for years everyone basically says China cheats, they steal intellectual property etc. etc.
2. Yes, I personally believe that as in, if I had to take a "guess", I would "guess" that it is true ..... only because in the USA, we DO witness "everything" - and I mean everything, coming from China. They always seem willing to make a copy of anything, it's usually the cheapest (and sometimes the cheapest quality, too - but that's not an insult - Americans obviously accept this, they buy the stuff, it's a fair tradeoff) - but yeah, we get the impression that for anything you can possibly think of in this world, there's a Chinese factory pumping it out. Because of that willingness to jump into ANY market (it seems), it does kind of stand to reason to conclude that in such a HUGE manufacturing market, there is also a huge piracy/intellectual property no-no market. Now having said all that, you're right - I am absolutely not sure this is the case, it just seems logical that it would be, and kind of seems that way.

Question:
If I go to Etsy right now and decide to make little COVID face-masks with "Nike" on them, I bet you $100 that I could go to DHGate.com and get an agreement from someone in China to make those custom masks for me wholesale and ship them and nothing would happen to either of us, prior to selling on Etsy. I bet you the same $100 that within a week after I list them on Etsy, I'd get in trouble.

Do you see where we get this impression?

But you're right, I don't know for sure

 

[Isaac]

So what is more ethical? Buying a key from a cheap reseller while potential harming the developer? Or to crack the game?
Both seems pretty bad to me.

So just buy the damn software. There is no excuse to steal someone's product.
It does not matter if you say one can create unlimited copies without any costs. The cost is not in the material but in the development.

I am just SO confused by the, (now 2) people on this thread who have suggested there is something "wrong" with "cheap resellers", who are selling licenses, totally legally and with permission.

Do you also tell people it is unethical to shop at Walmart just because they have the best prices? I mean, what is this?

It's illegal to buy a license key from a guy off Craigslist or Offer Up. It's not illegal to go to one of the numerous, public, not at all secret, legal, websites that resell MS product licenses.

Is this part of the younger generation who is just generally confused on what ethical means - and now worries that their newborn baby isn't fleeced with Responsibly Grown Cotton or something??

 

[Saphirah]

I am just SO confused by the, (now 2) people on this thread who have suggested there is something "wrong" with "cheap resellers", who are selling licenses, totally legally and with permission.

Isaac, did you read the post before the one you quoted?
There is nothing wrong going to wallmart and buying software that is on sale. And if there is an official reseller online that is putting the software up for a cheap price that is fine too.

The problem arises with online stores, that allow everyone to resell a copy of the software. Because if you find such software in an online store for a cheaper price than usual, you can almost be certain that these copies of the software are bought by credit card frauds or similar.

Take factorio for an example. It is a game, and it was never on sale ever. I am in contact with the developer and he never sold the game cheaper than 20€. Still these online shops sell the game for 15€. That is impossible without fraud.

But people still buy it because it is cheap!

 

[Minty]

We bought some Microsoft office licences years ago from what we thought was a genuine reseller.
They were boxed, in very "official-looking" cases, and weren't stupidly cheap.

Turns out they were very good copies with pirated licence keys.
If we hadn't had similar software supplied with some new laptops we wouldn't have known.
Only when you looked carefully could you spot the difference!

 

[Pat Hartman]

I think the point is - Software is almost never discounted. Including/especially Office. So, if the price is too good to be true, even if the price isn't ridiculous, it is probably a stolen license. Someone posted that since 2013, it has been legal in the EU to resell retail licenses (you probably still can't resell bulk licenses for obvious reasons). I don't know if that is the case in the US, it wasn't in the past but it may be now. I don't have a week to read the MS license agreement which gives them everything and me nothing to determine if I am still prohibited from reselling my license.