Is Englang on the verge of full socialism/communism (1 Viewer)

[Alisa]

Kind of like pointing a finger at someone else for the problem instead of fessing up that if you live here then it's your problem as well.

Obviously it is my problem too - my children suffer the consequences just like all the other children born to parents that can't afford adequate coverage. But I am not PART of the problem. There are many many potential solutions available to us. I personally have written to my representatives many times, I have signed petitions, I have donated time and money to organizations that seek to reform our health care system. The fact that nothing seems to be changing is due to people like you, not people like me.

 

[Pauldohert]

What healthcare do you get on your taxes in the US?

Here I have only gonr eprivate once basically to get somthing sorted quicker, until the last few years private healthcare with anything too seriuos woulkd put you bcak in the NHS anyhow.

Speed you pay for - where its a cancer diagnosis this is critical however.


A NEW THREAD PLEASE KEN!

Which system would you rather have Ken? Alisa I think I know the answer?

Rich or poor here , except a for small few would prefer the NHS as an option in my opinion.

 

[KenHigg]

At a basic level we provide that too - no point saving them from a heart attack to let them starve?

So you are outraged at high taxes then want to give away health care, food, etc?

 

[georgedwilkinson]

The state DOES fund those things. A minimum amount of everything that a person needs to survive, i.e., not DIE should be provided for those who cannot afford it. That is why we have food stamps, section 8 housing and shelters, etc.

I think Ken is asking about the UK.

The interesting thing about these "social" programs in the US is that they come with strings. I've seen/heard of people who make it their profession to get money from these programs. I don't have a problem with it, other than that it is removing their talents from the pool. Who knows, their little contribution could cure cancer or solve world hunger, if only they were allowed to use their talents then.

 

[Alisa]

What healthcare do you get on your taxes in the US?

Here I have only gonr eprivate once basically to get somthing sorted quicker, until the last few years private healthcare with anything too seriuos woulkd put you bcak in the NHS anyhow.

Speed you pay for - where its a cancer diagnosis this is critical however.


A NEW THREAD PLEASE KEN!

For our taxes, we get medicaid (free medical care for those in abject poverty and those who are disabled), and medicare (free medical care for those over 65, even if they are millionaires).

 

[Alisa]

I think Ken is asking about the UK.

The interesting thing about these "social" programs in the US is that they come with strings. I've seen/heard of people who make it their profession to get money from these programs. I don't have a problem with it, other than that it is removing their talents from the pool. Who knows, their little contribution could cure cancer or solve world hunger, if only they were allowed to use their talents then.

You are right. Who cares if millions of innocent children are brought up in poor health without enough to eat. No talents lost there. As long as not a single person gets to manipulate the system and recieve something they didn't "work for". Thats all that matters.

 

[Pauldohert]

I personally am not outraged at high taxes at all.

I may be outrages that a banker gets 30 million bonus and his taxes are too low?

 

[Pauldohert]

"For our taxes, we get medicaid (free medical care for those in abject poverty and those who are disabled), and medicare (free medical care for those over 65, even if they are millionaires)."

What would you get if you were 30 and had a heart attck with no private heathcare. Have you sliding scales on poverty, if you have heart attack at 64 yrs 364 days tough luck?

 

[Alisa]

"For our taxes, we get medicaid (free medical care for those in abject poverty and those who are disabled), and medicare (free medical care for those over 65, even if they are millionaires)."

What would you get if you were 30 and had a heart attck with no private heathcare. Have you sliding scales on poverty, if you have heart attack at 64 yrs 364 days tough luck?

In either case, you could go to the emergency room and they would shock you into staying alive - most hospitals will not let you die on their floor. Once you were stable, i.e., not on the verge of death, they would send you home with tens of thousands of dollars of medical bills. Then you would either pay if you could, or declare bankruptcy, lose your house, and everything you had worked for your entire life. Meanwhile, you would not be able to return to the doctor for follow up care unless you could afford to pay for such care out of pocket.

 

[Alisa]

Oh I forgot to add, you would then forget about EVER purchasing health insurance in the future, because noone would sell it to you after that.

 

[Pauldohert]

Thank the lord, or a the whole populous, who some decnt hearted fellows from hsitory that means this isn't the case here.

Care for you when you are elderly gets a little tricky here, when you are getting on.

ie if you have a house worth 250k, you are expected in some cases to use taht to pay for "housing/living care" - rather than live on the state and pass it on in your will.

Its a tough tough question!

 

[georgedwilkinson]

You are right. Who cares if millions of innocent children are brought up in poor health without enough to eat. No talents lost there. As long as not a single person gets to manipulate the system and recieve something they didn't "work for". Thats all that matters.

OMG, why does everything have to be a political statement?

Ken (and I) just want to know how they do it over there. It seems inevitable that we're going to end up with many more socialist programs since we're likely to get the most liberal president the world has ever known and the Republicans are starting to act like a bunch of socialists too. Can't we learn what they do, how they cope, in the UK without being told we're a bunch of money grubbing evil doers for whatever your political reasons are?

 

[Alisa]

OMG, why does everything have to be a political statement?

Ken (and I) just want to know how they do it over there. It seems inevitable that we're going to end up with many more socialist programs since we're likely to get the most liberal president the world has ever known and the Republicans are starting to act like a bunch of socialists too. Can't we learn what they do, how they cope, in the UK without being told we're a bunch of money grubbing evil doers for whatever your political reasons are?

Those aren't my words, but I will continue to complain that Americans are selfish until my family and other hardworking families like mine do not have to fear financial ruin due illness or injury.

 

[dkinley]

I think your question illustrates a fundamental difference in beliefs. Americans as a group are just plain selfish and self centered. ... It's the main reason America has no hope of ever solving the health care crisis.

For me, somewhat true. Basic economics of supply and demand (can get this from any text book or study) says the following in instance where Congress would require all employers, small and large alike, to provide health care to their workers. Now, let's look at yours and my pocket book after this mandate. This would cause a supply shift that would increase the cost to retailers and other firms of hiring workers. They would attempt to lower wages or cut jobs to offset this cost. The net effect is would decrease the supply goods (normal or inferior) so you would be paying more for any item or service you would purchase - that net cost is outside of taxes and inflation. This is why the Clinton plan was dropped without so much of a "Whatever happened to their plan?" Moving forward, compound that with a fine if you don't follow their orders.

Remove this burden and let the market regulate itself to reach equilibrium without imposing a floor or a ceiling. Let the employers compete for better skilled workers because one reason people decide to work somewhere is pay and benefits. Then you decide which employer stays in business by voting with your dollars on what products/services you purchase.

It doesn't bother you that people who have worked hard all their lives can't afford to purchase BASIC medical care for themselves or their children?

We don't need another socialized medicine policy, we already have it. BASIC care is already covered by medicaid and medicare for those people that don't participate in the job community. Do these need reformed? You betcha. For those that are unable to compete, they have access to the same. I just don't like it when people take advantage of the system .. at the bottom or the top - hence the reform.

-dk

 

[Alisa]

We don't need another socialized medicine policy, we already have it. BASIC care is already covered by medicaid and medicare for those people that don't participate in the job community.
-dk

Not for me. Basic medical care should be available for everyone, especially working people like me.

As far as the rest of your statement, that is all completely besides the point for me. The point is that private insurers need to be completely eliminated. It doesn't matter what regulations you add or remove, it doesn't matter what mandates you issue. As long as the private insurers have their hand in the cookie jar, insurance will remain unaffordable. Before you jump all over me, notice that I said private INSURERS, not private doctors, clinics, nurses, or hospitals.

 

[KenHigg]

Obviously it is my problem too - my children suffer the consequences just like all the other children born to parents that can't afford adequate coverage. But I am not PART of the problem. There are many many potential solutions available to us. I personally have written to my representatives many times, I have signed petitions, I have donated time and money to organizations that seek to reform our health care system. The fact that nothing seems to be changing is due to people like you, not people like me.

fyi: People like me have been working all of lives to pay for roads, schools, Medicare, social security, etc., etc. etc only to have snotty come-latelys say piss on it all what have you done for me today. You're likely to wake up one morning and all of us narrow minded old timers that value pulling ourselves up to a better life will be gone and you'll find yourself sitting in a clinic trying to speak Spanish with a bunch of illegal Mexicans trying to get a flu shot. And that’s already closer to reality than you think...

And who the heck said you were part of the problem?

Besides, I was asking the Paul and Brian anyway.

 

[Alisa]

fyi: People like me have been working all of lives to pay for roads, schools, Medicare, social security, etc., etc. etc only to have snotty come-latelys say piss on it all what have you done for me today. You're likely to wake up one morning and all of us narrow minded old timers that value pulling ourselves up to a better life will be gone and you'll find yourself sitting in a clinic trying to speak Spanish with a bunch of illegal Mexicans trying to get a flu shot. And that’s already closer to reality than you think...

And who the heck said you were part of the problem?

Besides, I was asking the Paul and Brian anyway.

Wow, that is really over the top Ken, and it's not even noon yet. But you have illustrated yet again the fundamental difference in perspective that is at the root of the problem.

 

[dkinley]

... notice that I said private INSURERS, not private doctors, clinics, nurses, or hospitals.

Then you need to start a new organization with all the private doctors and get them all nodding their head to some agreement like .. going to school for 10 years, having 200k in debt in loans, and reward their efforts by accepting a 30k/year job for the rest of their lives.

Until then, it seems that everyone's money needs to be pooled together so that those premiums of people who are more healthy, offsets the costs to those premiums of people who require more medical care. That is what private insurers do. Private businesses are more efficient than the government at managing anything (write Pelosi and ask her why she outsourced the Senate resturaunt to a private organization). If I had to stab a guess, and would like to see a study, only 10% of the money we give the gov for a specific task is seen on the output side to go into a specific program.

I don't want and I believe that most do not want or need the government to coddle me from the cradle to the grave. Once I let them down that path, then every decision is made for me my entire life. I am but yet a robot blindly following orders - that's not life.

-dk

 

[Alisa]

Then you need to start a new organization with all the private doctors and get them all nodding their head to some agreement like .. going to school for 10 years, having 200k in debt in loans, and reward their efforts by accepting a 30k/year job for the rest of their lives.

Until then, it seems that everyone's money needs to be pooled together so that those premiums of people who are more healthy, offsets the costs to those premiums of people who require more medical care. That is what private insurers do. Private businesses are more efficient than the government at managing anything (write Pelosi and ask her why she outsourced the Senate resturaunt to a private organization). If I had to stab a guess, and would like to see a study, only 10% of the money we give the gov for a specific task is seen on the output side to go into a specific program.

I don't want and I believe that most do not want or need the government to coddle me from the cradle to the grave. Once I let them down that path, then every decision is made for me my entire life. I am but yet a robot blindly following orders - that's not life.

-dk

The exorbitant amount of money (almost 16% of GDP) currently spent on our health care is NOT going into doctor's pockets. It is going into the pockets of the CEO's of the health insurance companies. As a matter of fact, doctors in the UK are better compensated than our doctors, although I am NOT advocating nationalizing the actual health care system the way they have there.

You repeat this chant about the government being inefficient at everything over and over again. If that is the case, then why have police? Why have a fire department? Why have a department of transportation? Why have a military? You are like John McCain, the great "deregulator". We have a government for a REASON, and that reason is that we are not anarchists. There are some things that are better done at a federal level, and some things that are not. We can't just blindly say the government is great at everything, or the government is horrible at everything.

As for health insurance, I am not even necessarily advocating that we have a national insurance plan, although that is one option. The important thing is to pool risk, so that risk is spread not only between the healthy and the sick, but it is also spread over the course of one's life. There are many ways to accomplish that - look at ANY other industrialized country in the world for examples. But we will never accomplish anything until the idea that this world is every man for himself is overcome by the idea that we rise and fall as ONE NATION and not as individuals.

 

[KenHigg]

Wow, that is really over the top Ken, and it's not even noon yet. But you have illustrated yet again the fundamental difference in perspective that is at the root of the problem.

Lets try to define the fundamental difference.

I consider myself conservative and you liberal - Is that close?

I think everyone should do their best to pull themselves up to a better lifestyle.

I think your view would be that we should do our best to help each other pull us all up to a better lifestyle.

Is that close?