Is it possible to be a Muslem without believing in Kuran? (1 Viewer)

[ak_ls]

or Christian without believing in Bible! There are many more religions that have religious books as their base and same thing may apply to them.

 

[SQL_Hell]

No, I think if you don't believe in the Qur'an then effectively you are denoucing the prophets and general ideaology.

These books are the core of the religion so if you don't believe in that then therefore you don't believe in the religion.

 

[Atomic Shrimp]

It was possible to be a Christian before the New Testament was written down - so it must be possible to be a Christian without it - and I would imagine the same being broadly true of other religions with significant books in them.

'Without' doesn't mean 'in complete opposition to' though - so (with certain exceptions*) it can't be possible to be a member of religion X, if you don't adhere to any of the parts of religion X.




*Judaism. If your mother is Jewish, you are. If you don't believe in it, that doesn't make you non-Jewish (at least as far as the religion regards you), it just makes you a not-very-observant Jew.

 

[wazz]

what sql hell said.

if a non-muslim marries a muslim, the non-muslim must convert to islam. if you are born muslim you are raised to believe in and follow the Koran (and there are people that make sure you do). interestingly, you'd be hard-pressed to find one who doesn't believe.

observance definitely is another question. (and there was a major split in islam, a long time ago, which created the Sunni and Shi'a sects. "on the ground," people are people.)

seems some people have changed the question and made their belief one of interpretation: literal vs. symbolic, believing parts of their good book literally, other parts, not so much. also seems some religions are a little more open, or tolerant of people doing this than others. all of the above varies a lot from place to place.

curious why you ask. crisis?

 

[Brianwarnock]

If all Muslims believed in the Koran then they would all act the same, However God has always been a very poor communicator thus leaving his word open to interpretation and abuse by men seeking power.
Which is why i find it impossible to believe in religion although willing to believe that there just might be some form of supernatural power ie an agnostic.

Brian

 

[SQL_Hell]

If all Muslims believed in the Koran then they would all act the same, However God has always been a very poor communicator thus leaving his word open to interpretation and abuse by men seeking power.
Which is why i find it impossible to believe in religion although willing to believe that there just might be some form of supernatural power ie an agnostic.

Brian

I always thought it was the spoken / written language that leads to ambiguity and misinterpretation, I wonder if wars could have been prevented if the Bible was written in binary for example

 

[ak_ls]

Let me put some VBA/Access in the discussion to make it more relevant to forum.

We frequently test conditions using something like “ … = True” and “ … <> False” to achieve the same purpose. Using this clue, I reword the question -

Is it possible to be a Moslem without believing in Koran or Quran?
as
Is it possible to be a non-Moslem with believing in Koran or Quran?

Let us take an example. Person A is born in Christian family and when A is grown enough to apply reasoning to understand the Bible, A accepts a part of the Bible but rejects the rest i.e. A partly believes in Bible. A also reads Quran and finds many things acceptable and comparable to Bible but few things unacceptable as in the case of Bible. In VBA sense, A partly believes in Bible and partly believes in Quran.

What will you call this person - a Christian or a Moslem? Of course A is Christian but why? when A's beliefs are identical to Bible and Quran.

Similar may be true if A is born in a Moslem family and partly believes in Quran as well as Bible.

This VBA logic shows that believing or not believing in Bible or Quran has little to do whether a person is Moslem or Christian or any other religion. However, please note its the result of VBA logic and not my views.

 

[Mike375]

I think if this was like Access there would be a lot of *.* Like "*xxx" etc

As far as Christianity goes I think the main qualifier would be a belief that Jesus is God. That would also be the main distinction between Christianity and Judaism/Islam.

As to belief in the Bible that requirement would vary with different formal religions. When I was at school, I am now 60, the Catholic school was saying evolution was OK but at some point God breathed a soul into man (or the advanced monkey). So the Catholic church is probably only taking belief in the Bible in a general sense but with the core belief that Jesus and God are the same and Jesus came back to life after 3 days.

I imagine Islamers and the Qur'an could have some similarity, that is, there would be certain core beliefs.

But at the most fundamental level Christianity would be a belief that Jesus and God are one and the same.

 

[Rabbie]

I think if this was like Access there would be a lot of *.* Like "*xxx" etc

As far as Christianity goes I think the main qualifier would be a belief that Jesus is God. That would also be the main distinction between Christianity and Judaism/Islam.
.

For once I agree with Mike. According to C S Lewis a leading Christian apologist that is the fundamental mark of a Christian. You can't be a Christian if you don't believe in the divinity of Jesus of Nazareth. If you do believe that you are a Christian even if not a good one. If you don't then you are a heretic.

In the same way a muslim must believe that Mohammed is the true prophet of Allah.

 

[statsman]

There are a large number of people who claim to be Christians. They can quote you chapter and verse of the Bible. It's following these teachings that give them difficulties.

It suprizing how many of the above hold elected office in the USA.

 

[Atomic Shrimp]

If someone says they're a Christian, then I guess you just have to accept them that way - just like if someone says they're homosexual.

 

[oumahexi]

If someone says they're a Christian, then I guess you just have to accept them that way - just like if someone says they're homosexual.

Exactly! It's all down to actions speaking louder than words! If someone says they are Christian/Islamic (or homosexual) you believe them, you have no reason not to, until their actions prove them to be liars!

 

[ak_ls]

Originally Posted by Oumahexi
Exactly! It's all down to actions speaking louder than words! If someone says they are Christian/Islamic (or homosexual) you believe them, you have no reason not to, until their actions prove them to be liars!

Does it apply to a Moslem as well?

Also laws of a State may not recognize individual's claim. For example a person being Christian by birth claims that he is a Moslem without formally converting to Moslem.

 

[gemma-the-husky]

christianity (of the protestant Anglican variety) is quite "soft", if you will.

Christian's believe in the divinity of Christ - and believe the bible is the word of god in general - however they also content to admit the seemingly paradoxical position that some of the bible is not "gospel" but to be treated as allegorical


the two events at the heart of christianity are the birth and death of christ (as well as his ministry in general) - these two events have to be accepted as divine/miraculous, as an article of faith i thnik, but i suspect most professed christians are more flexible about other contents of the bible

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i do suspect moslems are less flexible in permitting critical discussion of the koran, but i am really not sure

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[oumahexi]

Does it apply to a Moslem as well?

Also laws of a State may not recognize individual's claim. For example a person being Christian by birth claims that he is a Moslem without formally converting to Moslem.

Absolutley. Just because your parents are one religion doesn't mean that is what you will automatically believe. However, claim all you want, you kill somebody or break the laws/commandments of the religion you claim to follow you are obviously in contempt. People who do not follow the laws of their religion should not claim to be followers, it's they who give the rest a bad name. I'm pretty sure Jesus didn't like hypocrits very much...

Equally, I don't see why you can't live to the rules of a religion you are not born to, nor do I see the necesity to worship in a specified buiding, but then, I don't profess to be a religious freak

 

[ColinEssex]

People who do not follow the laws of their religion should not claim to be followers, it's they who give the rest a bad name. I'm pretty sure Jesus didn't like hypocrits very much...

Like those Yankees (or southerners) who go out and shoot animals for fun, then watch them die in agony. Then apparently they strap the dead body to the front of their macho 4x4 to parade through the streets.

The funny thing is, on sundays they go to church and pretend to be upstanding citizens of the community.
'Look at me world, arn't I good? I'm a great big strong hypocritical killer'

Sick - if it wasn't so sick I'd be laughing at their stupidity.

Col

 

[oumahexi]

Like those Yankees (or southerners) who go out and shoot animals for fun, then watch them die in agony. Then apparently they strap the dead body to the front of their macho 4x4 to parade through the streets.

The funny thing is, on sundays they go to church and pretend to be upstanding citizens of the community.
'Look at me world, arn't I good? I'm a great big strong hypocritical killer'

Sick - if it wasn't so sick I'd be laughing at their stupidity.

Col

Please tell me you're a vegetarian Colin

 

[datAdrenaline]

>> People who do not follow the laws of their religion should not claim to be followers, it's they who give the rest a bad name. I'm pretty sure Jesus didn't like hypocrits very much... <<

'Laws of their religion' --- well Christianity is based on a relationship with Jesus, and as a Christian, our sins are forgiven through the grace of God. That does NOT give us permission to blatently defy the morality and teachings set forth by the scripture as we all know that noone is perfect, save one (Jesus). But, when our behaviors stray from the expectations of the faith, our mindset is to seek forgiveness and it is granted by our heavenly Father, when sought after with a heart that is sincere, and repentent.

So ... breaking the 'Law' per se does not alienate you from the Christian faith. What separates you from the faith is the permanent rejection of the morals and teachings as if they don't apply any longer, also, the selective use of them does not win you any points with God! For Christianity, the 10 commands will always be the 10 commands, and Love your neighbor as yourself will be the most significant of those ... we don't get to pick and choose the ones that fit our lifestyle, or twist them to mean something completely different to suit our wants at the moment ... ... But, again, when one "returns" to the realization that the ways they have chosen are sinful, and heartfelt forgiveness from the Father is sought, you are extended grace by Him and thus are welcomed with a boundless love.

I am not a theologist, so I am sure the depth of my contribution may not go as deep as some wish ... but, there you have it.

 

[oumahexi]

'Laws of their religion' --- well Christianity is based on a relationship with Jesus, and as a Christian, our sins are forgiven through the grace of God. That does NOT give us permission to blatently defy the morality and teachings set forth by the scripture as we all know that noone is perfect, save one (Jesus). But, when our behaviors stray from the expectations of the faith, our mindset is to seek forgiveness and it is granted by our heavenly Father, when sought after with a heart that is sincere, and repentent.

So ... breaking the 'Law' per se does not alienate you from the Christian faith. What separates you from the faith is the permanent rejection of the morals and teachings as if they don't apply any longer, also, the selective use of them does not win you any points with God! For Christianity, the 10 commands will always be the 10 commands, and Love your neighbor as yourself will be the most significant of those ... we don't get to pick and choose the ones that fit our lifestyle, or twist them to mean something completely different to suit our wants at the moment ... ... But, again, when one "returns" to the realization that the ways they have chosen are sinful, and heartfelt forgiveness from the Father is sought, you are extended grace by Him and thus are welcomed with a boundless love.

I am not a theologist, so I am sure the depth of my contribution may not go as deep as some wish ... but, there you have it.

Mmm, that all sounds very '"born again-ish", the only churches I ever went to as a child were Church of Scotland and we were promised, yes promised, that if we put a foot wrong we would burn in hell for ever! Forgiveness was for the weak Catholics who could go out and sin week after week, and get absolution from their priest on a Thursday at confession.

So, how do you know you're forgiven? There are so many variations of each religion they can't all be 100% right when they offer slight differences. Religion, in my point of view, is much the same a politics, the people who run them are all out to line their own pocket and will play a merry dance of words in order to snare new blood. The teachings of the old scriptures are great, and can still have meaning in todays society, but they are down to interpretation and that's where it all goes ape.

 

[Rabbie]

Like those Yankees (or southerners) who go out and shoot animals for fun, then watch them die in agony. Then apparently they strap the dead body to the front of their macho 4x4 to parade through the streets.

The funny thing is, on sundays they go to church and pretend to be upstanding citizens of the community.
'Look at me world, arn't I good? I'm a great big strong hypocritical killer'

Sick - if it wasn't so sick I'd be laughing at their stupidity.

Col

Do you have any evidence that they are bad shots and that the animals are not killed instantly? Just curious