Is USA directly entering in the war, good or bad?

[Isaac]

I have a conscience, and while I know Israel had the right to wage war against Hamas, they have gone way too far, it's obvious and unconscionable to me. If a bad man had hurt my family and I was chasing him through the mall, I wouldn't take out a machine gun and mow down a crowd, hoping a bullet went thru them to him. But I agree to disagree : )

 

[Pat Hartman]

@Isaac, you are not the only one here with a conscience. But you are blaming the wrong party. The people who elected Hamas to govern them and who raised their children by teaching them to hate all Jews are now being held hostage in their own city. The people they elected are using them as human shields. If you know anyone in law enforcement, ask them how they handle hostage situations? They don't let them drag on for two years which Israel has been forced to do due to opinions like yours who think the Jews are always at fault. The police use overwhelming force once they've decided to stop negotiating. Israel tried that and the world went batsh** crazy.

Why is it always the Jews' fault? The Palestinians have within their power the means to end this war NOW.

Are you a Star Trek fan? A number of episodes in the first series and even some in TNG were morality plays. In one of the ones about war, the Enterprise materialized in a new star system and was contacted by the authorities from the nearest planet. They were informed that the war simulator had destroyed their starship and all the crew should beam down for euthanasia. Kirk wasn't going quietly so only the away team beamed down where they learned more about the situation. The war between the two planets had lasted for a century and finally they both decided that the cost in material and human lives was too great so they outsourced the kinetic war to a simulator and the simulator decided on the death toll but no more cities and ships were being destroyed. It was never clear why they just didn't make peace but they were happy with their "solution" because it was clean. Kirk was having none of this and so he and the away team found and destroyed the simulators. If they wanted to continue the war rather than make peace, it would be dirty again.

So, the moral to the story is that war is hell. Peace is better. The Palestinians haven't come to that conclusion yet. They are still holding on to their dreams of killing all the Jews and having all of Israel for themselves. Until the Palestinians get over their rabid hatred of all Jews and their insistence that the only good Jew is a dead Jew, the war will continue because the Jews are not going to lie down and play dead. For now, the land from the river to the sea belongs to the Jews and they're not giving it back. If you did your history assignment, you'd know the Arabs had their chance to have their own country but lost it due to theft by their neighbors in 1948 and now to greed. Gaza has been free of Israeli control since 2004 but they wanted all of Israel or nothing. Now they have nothing. I believe that there is no hope for these people. They cannot be saved and that is why all other Muslim countries are refusing them entry.

 

[moke123]

Your post didn't hurt anyone. It was a creative distillation of what you think is going on but it showed a complete lack of understanding of the issue. You equate the terrorists of Hamas who specifically attack civilians with the military of Israel who specifically attack military targets. Really? In your mind that is the same?

reports indicate that Israel has hit civilian targets, resulting in numerous civilian casualties.
Key Points:

• Allegations of War Crimes: Various sources, including UN human rights bodies and organizations like Human Rights Watch and Amnesty International, have concluded that Israeli military actions in Gaza constitute war crimes and crimes against humanity, with civilian losses and destruction of civilian infrastructure being attributed as "inevitable results of Israel's chosen strategy".
• Strikes on Residential Buildings and Civilian Infrastructure: There are reports of Israeli strikes on residential buildings, apartment complexes, schools, universities, hospitals, and water infrastructure, leading to mass civilian casualties.
• Disregard for Distinction and Proportionality: The high number of civilian casualties and the widespread destruction of civilian objects suggest a disregard for the principles of distinction and proportionality under international humanitarian law.
• Targeting of Healthcare Facilities and Personnel: UN investigators have specifically accused Israel of deliberately targeting Gaza's health facilities and killing medical personnel.
• Israeli Explanations: The Israeli government has maintained that their attacks on hospitals and schools in Gaza are aimed at targeting Hamas and other Palestinian armed groups, a claim that Hamas has denied. Israel has also stated that they have taken measures to minimize civilian harm, but the scale of the casualties suggests otherwise.

It is important to note that:

• International humanitarian law requires parties to a conflict to distinguish between civilians and combatants, as well as between civilian objects and military objectives. Direct attacks on civilians are prohibited, and indiscriminate attacks are considered war crimes.
• The International Criminal Court is investigating the situation in Palestine, including alleged war crimes committed by all parties to the conflict.

 

[The_Doc_Man]

while I know Israel had the right to wage war against Hamas, they have gone way too far, it's obvious and unconscionable to me.

The slogan used by Hamas is "from the river to the sea" - implying that when they are finished there will be no Israelis between the Jordan River and the Mediterranean Sea, i.e. total annihilation of Israel. Tell me again how Israel is going too far with an enemy that repeatedly has vowed to exterminate them, an enemy that won't stop attacking, and an enemy that kills babies and unarmed young women. The videos exist for that and for worse atrocities.

Your problem is that you don't understand, don't seem to grasp fully that this is NOT a police action. It is a WAR action, where you end the war when your enemy has no capacity to resist.

 

[The_Doc_Man]

@moke123, I read your list. But what was missing from that statement was that the Israeli provocation was Oct. 7th when there was no distinction or proportionality in the people that Hamas killed, including children and unarmed women not in uniform. That should ALSO have qualified as war crimes - by Hamas as the provocateur. Hamas went into residential buildings to destroy whole families. As to the medical buildings, we have seen videos of the Hamas infrastructure UNDER those buildings. When you are confronted by barbarians who consider a civilian as just another shield of flesh, the designation of "war crimes" is pointing the wrong direction.

 

[Pat Hartman]

@moke123 Please show me the list of war crimes that Hamas has been accused of.

You only attack Israel. Is that because you are an anti-Semite? No atrocity that Hamas commits, no treaty that Hamas violates ever bothers you. The events of Oct 7th are just another day to you because men wearing masks and carrying rifles didn't break into your house and kill your family because they were Jews. We, in America, have been isolated from military actions (not that Oct 7 was anything but a terrorist attack) since the end of the civil war. We've had many terrorist attacks but nothing even approaching what happened on Oct 7. 9/11 killed a lot of innocent people but it wasn't personal. People didn't come to your house and break in and torture and kill your family. They didn't take you hostage. This is a whole different level of evil and you are oblivious to it. It is all Israel's fault in your anti-semitic mind.

If this were a "police action" (whatever that is) as Doc pointed out, Israel might be accused of going too far. No one ever seems to care how far Hamas goes. However this is a fight to the death. This is an actual war. Hamas has vowed to kill all Jews. They teach their children to count by counting dead Jews. They only accept truces to give themselves a chance to rearm. Then they break the truce and attack again. It is not possible for the Israelis to live under this kind of pressure any longer. Oct 7th brought this conflict to a whole new level. This war will end when Hamas ceases to exist.

The residents of Gaza are being held prisoner by Hamas to be used as human shields. No one cares about that, not that any other Arab country is willing to take in Palestinian refugees. They've all learned their lesson. But since this is war, Israel is fighting back. Hamas elects to hide behind the skirts of women and children. Israel can let them get away with it unscathed or they can attack military installations hidden behind women and children and sick people. If I were running the war, I'd block all the entrances to the tunnels and fill them with water and let the rats drown. Whatever hostages are left are almost certainly dead anyway.

 

[moke123]

Pat, you are awfully violent.

I was only responding to your comments to SachAccess. No need for you to put words in my mouth with what you think I think, nor make assertions that I'm anti-semetic. I asked A.I. if Israel targets civilians because you emphatically stated they don't. That was A.I.'s response. (couldn't put it in quotes because it get's cut off)

 

[SachAccess]

You equate the terrorists of Hamas who specifically attack civilians with the military of Israel who specifically attack military targets. Really? In your mind that is the same?

Dear @Pat Hartman , please allow to be more clear on this. My question is,

Is USA directly entering in the war, good or bad?​

I have 0 sympathy, empathy, soft corner, compassion for the organization you have mentioned. I am from the country which has suffered a lot due such organizations. I wanted to use more strong and apt words for such people however for the respect of forum I am not doing it.
Due to my limited understanding of the issue, I have tried to limit my scope to my original question only.
Once again, any innocent life lost is always sad. USA entering in the war and what Israel is suffering due to such people are 2 different things. I just wanted to know, is USA doing a right thing or wrong thing by directly entering the war.

 

[AccessBlaster]

Is USA directly entering in the war, good or bad?​

War is always a bad thing. Sometimes, taking quick, limited action can actually stop a bigger, more dangerous war later on. The hard part is figuring out when it really helps... and when it just makes everything worse.

It's difficult to know who's doing what when the press is busy trying to score political points for their allies.

 

[AngelSpeaks]

Dear @Pat Hartman , please allow to be more clear on this. My question is,

Is USA directly entering in the war, good or bad?​

I have 0 sympathy, empathy, soft corner, compassion for the organization you have mentioned. I am from the country which has suffered a lot due such organizations. I wanted to use more strong and apt words for such people however for the respect of forum I am not doing it.
Due to my limited understanding of the issue, I have tried to limit my scope to my original question only.
Once again, any innocent life lost is always sad. USA entering in the war and what Israel is suffering due to such people are 2 different things. I just wanted to know, is USA doing a right thing or wrong thing by directly entering the war.

IMO, President Trump did what the incompetent , impotent, United Nations should have done. A few presidents before him have been that bold .

 

[Pat Hartman]

I was only responding to your comments to SachAccess. No need for you to put words in my mouth with what you think I think, nor make assertions that I'm anti-semetic. I asked A.I. if Israel targets civilians because you emphatically stated they don't. That was A.I.'s response. (couldn't put it in quotes because it get's cut off)

You act like you don't know the bias of AI. You might have mentioned that your response was generated by AI so I know who the anti-Semite actually is. Since the media never reports anything derogatory about Hamas and Hezbollah and their constant harassment of Israel and their targeting of civilians, AI would not have any way to produce an accurate answer to whatever your question was. And apparently you don't know that Hamas teaches its children to count by counting dead Jews. You also don't seem to know that both Hamas and Hezbollah target civilians specifically or you might have questioned your results.

Pat, you are awfully violent.

This is an eye for an eye situation. You have no concept of the evil of what Hamas did on Oct 7th or you would agree with me. Put yourself at the breakfast table on a lazy Sunday morning and picture masked (Hamas is allowed to wear masks to hide their identity as they commit atrocious crimes against humanity). They ra** your wife and daughter and then take your daughter hostage where they will make her life a living hell until the day she dies. They shoot you but you don't die. You'll probably wish you did until the day you do eventually die.

 

[The_Doc_Man]

Dear @Pat Hartman , please allow to be more clear on this. My question is,

Is USA directly entering in the war, good or bad?​

I have 0 sympathy, empathy, soft corner, compassion for the organization you have mentioned. I am from the country which has suffered a lot due such organizations. I wanted to use more strong and apt words for such people however for the respect of forum I am not doing it.
Due to my limited understanding of the issue, I have tried to limit my scope to my original question only.
Once again, any innocent life lost is always sad. USA entering in the war and what Israel is suffering due to such people are 2 different things. I just wanted to know, is USA doing a right thing or wrong thing by directly entering the war.

The problem is that by asking this question now and offering a dichotomous answer, you have asked the wrong question. Lawyers do this to witnesses all the time, by demanding yes/no answers to complex questions.

The action is black & white - enter the war/do not enter the war. (Yoda voice: "There is no try. There is only do or not do.") The problem is that by attaching "good" or "bad" to the answer, you instantly attached shades of gray to the question and I think that at this time and in this political environment, there are MANY shades of gray to be had.

The correct way to ask that question (I think) is, at some time in the future, when the conflict is over and we weigh what we've lost against what we've gained, THEN we can evaluate the degree of good or bad in that choice. Asking now, before the fallout (interesting choice of words, eh?) has settled from that choice, we are asking someone to put on their swami turban and engage in fortune-telling. Or, like we used to have to remind project managers, they always wanted to know 100% of the cost of a project at a time when less than 5% of it had been implemented.

Therefore, to your direct question, the guaranteed correct answer is "Yes."