Israel (1 Viewer)

Dick7Access

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Israel occupies against all international law much of Palestine. It blockades even basic medical supplies etc from much else of it.

On land it occupies it bulldozes the houses of the legitimate residents whilst illegally building settlement for Israelis.

Palestinians want to fight the occupation - they do so with stones, and Hamas does so with rockets.

Stones are answered by Israel with guns, ineffective rockets are answered with one of the worlds most powerful military. Deaths of Palestinian's outway that of Israel 100:1

Israel hides behind self defence (how that excuses ethnic cleansing and land grabs - I am not sure) and accusations of anti Semitism for those who complain.

I'm on the victims side no matter who they are.

I'm not on either side as I don't know enough about either side, however with end time predictions I am getting more interested. Hasn't the deputed land change hands many times over hundred's or maybe thousand's of years.
 

Frothingslosh

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Technically, Palestinians and Israelis are both semetic peoples. :p

Also, while the Palestinians may have resided in Gaza, the Golan Heights, the West Bank, and Sinai, those territories were actually seized from Egyptian, Jordanian, and Syrian control. I'm pretty sure Sinai and the Golan Heights were taken out of self-defense (the former as a buffer against Egypt and the latter because it was so easy to hide a military build-up from Israel). Gaza and the West Bank, though, were IMO pure land-grabs. The West Bank grab was especially blatant, as it put Jerusalem into Israeli-controlled territory.

All that said, and while answering stones with guns is definitely overkill, keep in mind that some of those stones are large enough, and plainly intended, to kill people. Firing rockets into random towns hoping to kill civilians (especially knowing what the inevitable response will be) is just as much an atrocity as moving soldiers in to kill everyone who even looks at them funny.

There is ZERO hope for peace as long as either side continues targeting the others' civilians. Personally, despite my being liberal by American standards, I would love nothing more than to see EVERY person on EITHER side who ever deliberately harmed a civilian (defined as anyone who has not taken up arms) shot in the face as a war criminal.

With a bazooka.

Maybe after that the survivors can act reasonably and work things out.
 

AnthonyGerrard

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Technically, Palestinians and Israelis are both semetic peoples. :p

Also, while the Palestinians may have resided in Gaza, the Golan Heights, the West Bank, and Sinai, those territories were actually seized from Egyptian, Jordanian, and Syrian control. I'm pretty sure Sinai and the Golan Heights were taken out of self-defense (the former as a buffer against Egypt and the latter because it was so easy to hide a military build-up from Israel). Gaza and the West Bank, though, were IMO pure land-grabs. The West Bank grab was especially blatant, as it put Jerusalem into Israeli-controlled territory.

All that said, and while answering stones with guns is definitely overkill, keep in mind that some of those stones are large enough, and plainly intended, to kill people. Firing rockets into random towns hoping to kill civilians (especially knowing what the inevitable response will be) is just as much an atrocity as moving soldiers in to kill everyone who even looks at them funny.

There is ZERO hope for peace as long as either side continues targeting the others' civilians. Personally, despite my being liberal by American standards, I would love nothing more than to see EVERY person on EITHER side who ever deliberately harmed a civilian (defined as anyone who has not taken up arms) shot in the face as a war criminal.

With a bazooka.

Maybe after that the survivors can act reasonably and work things out.

Since the conflict occurred through the allocation of land to Israel to begin with , the further land grab just inflames the situation more. Of course in its own borders Israel may have a major self protection issue.

I don't understand why we the west don't enforce what is right - ie the additional taken land is handed back, or Economic sanctions v Israel. Gaza is pretty much blockaded anyway. Israel should endure the same till it gets back within its own borders - or at the very least demolished all settlements its put up on the land its stolen.

Its such a blatant violalation of whats right. - as are the war crimes of both sides. Not enforcing whats right and wrong leads to chaos.
 

Frothingslosh

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Since the conflict occurred through the allocation of land to Israel to begin with , the further land grab just inflames the situation more. Of course in its own borders Israel may have a major self protection issue.

I don't understand why we the west don't enforce what is right - ie the additional taken land is handed back, or Economic sanctions v Israel. Gaza is pretty much blockaded anyway. Israel should endure the same till it gets back within its own borders - or at the very least demolished all settlements its put up on the land its stolen.

Its such a blatant violalation of whats right. - as are the war crimes of both sides. Not enforcing whats right and wrong leads to chaos.

I can't disagree with you.
 

BlueIshDan

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Without reading too much into previous posts:

All I have to say is that Political movements make me sick to my stomach.
 

Dick7Access

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I always say that on any issue it usually amounts to who you listen to and who you believe. I called a friend of mine in Chicago who was born in Lebanon. He just came back from a survey trip to Israel. He is very knowledgeable about the middle east. He has four degrees, one of which is an attorney. Speaks 3 languages fluently. He said there is enough blame on both sides to go around. Of course, degrees and languages not withstanding, it is still one man's opinion.
 

ColinEssex

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Do americans know where Israel and the Middle East is?

Col
 

scott-atkinson

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Who knows maybe Hitler new the End Days projections would come true and was trying to change them by eliminating the Jewish Nation, perhaps instead of defeating Nazi Germany we should have actually helped them... :rolleyes:

Seriously though, everybody needs to get over the Holocaust, what the Isreali's are doing is wrong, they should give the land back to the Palestinians, and members of the Israeli Military and Government should be tried for War Crimes... the West wouldn't stand for it if for example a mad dictator by the name of Saddam invaded a little country called Kuwait now would they.... :rolleyes:
 

AnthonyGerrard

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Who knows maybe Hitler new the End Days projections would come true and was trying to change them by eliminating the Jewish Nation, perhaps instead of defeating Nazi Germany we should have actually helped them... :rolleyes:

Seriously though, everybody needs to get over the Holocaust, what the Isreali's are doing is wrong, they should give the land back to the Palestinians, and members of the Israeli Military and Government should be tried for War Crimes... the West wouldn't stand for it if for example a mad dictator by the name of Saddam invaded a little country called Kuwait now would they.... :rolleyes:

I'm not sure even a wry comment like that helps Scott! Feeds the anti semite label at all those who criticise, which Israel can hide it's misdoings behind. Or frankly it feeds anti semites.



All this talk of Israels self defence (massively disproportionate) - doesn't for one minute explain how 500,000 settlers have been placed in Palestine.

That's a disgrace - and if Israel has the right to defend itself (it does) then so does Palestine from this settlement invasion.

I have decided to boycott all Israeli products - not quite sure why I didn't much much sooner.
 

Fifty2One

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Makes zero sense that Israel is bombing the heck out of schools. hospitals and homes in the Palestine Concentration terriroty in a claimed effort to prevent tunnels under the Gaza barrier to be used by a terrorist group of persons interred in the concentration territory from smuggling arms and ammunition.

Why not bomb the Gaza barrier with sufficient saturation to obliterate the tunnels? Would seem to be a more efficient way to prevent subterranean traffic.

If they are smuggling ammunition through tunnels made between the Concentration territory and Israel, it would suggest that it would be persons in Israel making these armaments available to these 'terrorists'.
Why not take out those responsible for this trafficking of weaponry?

How is it so much easier to kill wound and main a large number of citizens who are already under duress by the siege you have on their land and rights? You would think that Israelis would be so more aware then other people in the world about internment territories, oppression and prejudice, solely based on their own history.
 

ColinEssex

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Perhaps if the USA stopped bankrolling the Israel military, would that make a difference?

Col
 

ColinEssex

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Perhaps if the USA stopped bankrolling the Israel military, would that make a difference?

Col

Actually, thinking about it, (and I can't be bothered to check) I suspect the USA is contributing to the prolonging of most of the current conflicts in the world.

Is that called killing civilians by proxy?

Col
 

Steve R.

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As this current Israeli/Hamas confrontation drags on. There is a solution. Deport all the Muslim Palestinians to the new Islamic State in the area around Mosul. The Islamic State gave the Christians in the vicinity of Mosul a leave, convert, or die ultimatum. Since the Christians are now homeless refugees seeking a new "homeland" they could move to Gaza. That will end the fighting there and the Muslim Palestinians can enjoy living in their desired Islamic state without fear of Israeli "aggression".
 

Steve R.

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Actually, thinking about it, (and I can't be bothered to check) I suspect the USA is contributing to the prolonging of most of the current conflicts in the world.
The Obama administration has unfortunately "doubled down" on endless war. This from the guy who was inappropriately handed a Nobel Peace prize. The US has unfortunately had a long history of acting as hired mercenaries for various Islamic regimes.

Without going into a lot of minutia, the US is actually pursing a strategy of cultural suicide. The US props up Islamic regimes and does nothing to prevent their genocidal persecutions of Christians. The West let the Christians in Lebanon "hang". Turkey invades Cyprus and the US did nothing. In Syria and Iraq, the Christians are now homeless refugees, but Obama is only concerned about Palestinian suffering.

Obama is quite duplicitous. He acknowledges that Israeli has a right to defend itself, but at the same time refutes that by insisting that Israeli restrain itself and speaks of Palestinian suffering. Obama does not seem acknowledged or to insist that Hamas stop its aggression.
 

shadow9449

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Makes zero sense that Israel is bombing the heck out of schools. hospitals and homes in the Palestine Concentration terriroty in a claimed effort to prevent tunnels under the Gaza barrier to be used by a terrorist group of persons interred in the concentration territory from smuggling arms and ammunition.

The argument is that the homes/schools/hospitals/mosques have been used as weapons storage and launching facilities.

If they are smuggling ammunition through tunnels made between the Concentration territory and Israel, it would suggest that it would be persons in Israel making these armaments available to these 'terrorists'.
Why not take out those responsible for this trafficking of weaponry?

The tunnels between Israel and Gaza have been intended and have been used for terrorists to sneak into Israel and attack citizens. The tunnels used for smuggling are at the Egyptian/Gaza border.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gaza–Egypt_border#mediaviewer/File:Gaza_Strip_map2.svg

Many are made locally in Gaza but there are also many, such as the long range missiles, donated by Iran and possibly Syria and smuggled in.

SHADOW
 

Brianwarnock

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I read the link and found no reference to tunnels on the Gaza Egyptian border, I did read many references to the destruction of Palestinian homes by the Israeli army IDF .
It is best remembered that one mans terrorist is often another's freedom fighter, perhaps if Israel returned all of the land it has stolen since it was first created then there might be hope for peace, but while it creates a concentration camp in all but name, ie Gaza, there is no hope. Israel's actions are Hamas' s finest recruiting campaign.

Brian
 

shadow9449

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I read the link and found no reference to tunnels on the Gaza Egyptian border, I did read many references to the destruction of Palestinian homes by the Israeli army IDF .
It is best remembered that one mans terrorist is often another's freedom fighter, perhaps if Israel returned all of the land it has stolen since it was first created then there might be hope for peace, but while it creates a concentration camp in all but name, ie Gaza, there is no hope. Israel's actions are Hamas' s finest recruiting campaign.

Brian

The link was just to an image for reference rather than to description of tunnel activity.

SHADOW
 

Brianwarnock

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Ah! Incase some of our North American friends didn't know the geography?

Brian
 

Brianwarnock

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Since North America starts near Panama extends through Mexico, USA and the Banks Island in Canada. Which North Americans were you referring to? Are we suppose to guess?

it was a deliberate case of "if the cap fits wear it" .
I did not want to upset all of my friends in the USA.

Brian
 

Brianwarnock

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Rich hasn't posted for 2 years, I think his interest waned after Bob wiped out something like 14000 posts, but why he finally stopped I don't know.

I think John Big mainly posts at UA but again I don't know if he is still posting there.

People stop for many reasons and usually without comment, Pat Hartman hasn't been on for some time, others are on intermittently and others like vbaInet disappear if they have a heavy workload , then reappear and seem to be on 24/7 :D

Brian
 
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