Mike & George's normalization exercise (1 Viewer)

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Could you normalise this..

Yes, it is what I do.

However, to SOLVE your issue (somewhat different than normalizing a design), you'll need to elaborate on:

I could not do it. Subforms are no good and display is one of the problems.

Why not?

If you can make me understand that, I can propose a solution that is both normalized and works.

Start a new thread (or re-open your old one) and PM me when it is up.
 
M

Mike375

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George,

What I will try and do is get the call form and a couple of other bits and pieces and Zip it. I won't bother with all the macros, so the form won't work as such but it will illustrate the display.

With subform (s) I could display the last 5 calls (or whatever) but the subforms would restrict how I can display as compared to loose fields. Also, I don't think I can select the prospect for the call list if I depended on the Many table.

As an example, there are 6 combos, 2 where a time is entered......call from and call upto.....and a pair for days to call and days not to call. Thus if the doctors receptionist has said it is best to to call between 11am and 1pm and only on Tuesdays and Thursdays, then the doctors record will only appear in the call list at those times and days. Bsaically, the goal is obtain the "highest contact with prosect" per hour of calling.

Anyway, I will see if I can get the form up and a query/table etc.
 
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Great, I'm very excited about this. It is my chance to put up or shut up about how easy it is to work with a normalized design. I think the last piece of this puzzle fell into place for me about a month ago (when I wanted to know how to "flatten" a subform).
 
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Mike375

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George,

Open form 2ProspectT.

There are 6 records where I just did dummy calls. Three of the records will not show in the form because the query has deselected them. There is also a macro that does part of the selection but I have not included it because it needs to much other stuff with it.

The date boxes on the left have Now(). For some telemarketers the field is lengthened to show the time, others prefer just the date showing. The form also varies with different telemarketers in that the dates section on the left is placed on the right and the combo are placed on the left. The form is changed quite frequently with the display. For example, for most telemarketers most/many (it varies) of the control labels under the name/address are not there and the 5 date boxes go across the screen.

The AllAttempts table is the Many table.

PS. Most of the table field names are meaningless as the base tables were made over 10 years ago. Use attach in next post as this one has a linked table:)
 

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M

Mike375

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George,

Use this attachment as I mucked up the first one as I linked one of the tables.
 

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WT*! I have no clue what all these fields are for. It'll take me forever to decode this...LOL.

Do you mind giving me a walkthrough of the business reasons for all this stuff? What are the rules? Be verbose!
 
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Mike375

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Apart from the obvious name/address stuff:)

The first 3 fields in Maintable ID the prospect for his category (there are 32 categories) and the salesman. Most of the fields that have entries (as a result of my dummy calls) are for the outcome...unavailable etc and date/times. The field Diary that is for the salesman determines how the diary opens. A telemarketer could be calling for 4 different salesman at the same time.

Some of the fields (especially the null fields) are for client and personal. Also addresses as I keep three sets of addresses in that table but they only come into play when it is client or personal.. I have prospect, client and personal in the same table. In rare cases someone can be there 3 times as they start as a prospect and go through to being a client and also a personal contact. This done partly for the diary system. In other words I might have a meeting time with Bill Smith and someone looking at the diary can tell it is personal and so that time could be changed. If he is a prospect he has P in Marker field and C for client and M for miscellaneous.

Quite a few of the fields are also used for different details that apply to medical specialists.

A lot of the dates/times and outcomes are also used for recycling prospects. A macro pulls prospects from a holding table to match rthe number of rejects which it sends to another table. The various outcomes/dates determine when a lot of those prospects are brought back into the system. They are also used when we sell the names that were no good to us because we are insurance but that makes them good for something else.

The Many table AllAttempts is mainly for the calling statistics....contact rate per hour, appts made per hour etc. and is measured againts another table that has goals set for each prospect category.

At the bottom of form ProspectT you will see a few rows of unbound text boxes. The telemarketer can decide whether these will be visible (invisible by default) and used. If he does then they gives the call results Vs goals following each call.

But in a nutshell the goal is to get the maximum number of contacts per hour of calling. For example, those combos on the right of the screen are mainly used when we call doctors and they get the contact rate per hour up from around 1.5 to 4.5 per hour. We get about 1.5 per hour on the first call but second time around because the time/day entries in the combo are selecting/deselecting we get 10 contacts per hour on the second set of calls. I think it would be hard to select those prospects if the time/day entries were not in the maintable for the prospects record.

Some of the data is alo sent back to the name list suppliers for pricing. A simple example being "wrong number" or "no longer works there" as they make certain guarantees.

The major problem with subforms is the changing of the form as we do it quite frequently. If the telemarketer thinks he will do better with the form upside down etc then that is what he gets and we have the statistics to see how it goes.

But the other problem is that I can't see how the prospect selection can be done if the dates/times/outcomes are in the Many table. One reason being that the selection of the prospect is not solely based on the last call.

A couple of months ago I removed a lot redundant stuff and also reduced the size of several tables. The MainTable had about 240 fields and is now around 150 which was as small as I could make it. Of course if I put prospect, client and miscellaneous/person in different tables then each table would be much smaller but the total number of fiedls across the three tables would still be about the same. If none of the call results were put into the maintable then it would come down by maybe 50 fields or so.

As a side note and this is after years of using it, the cloud background gives the best call results and labels are much better than buttons, especially when a lot of them are to be used. However, some telemarketers prefer just to have the central part of the screen where the outcomes are clicked and not much else......in that case a plain form background works better.
 
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Rich

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Politics and religion etc have no place on the main boards, keep them to the relevant sections
 

KenHigg

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Politics and religion etc have no place on the main boards, keep them to the relevant sections

Did I miss something here? You butt in with a wisecrack, he does a personable response complete with a smiley and you tell him he's out of line in his own thread - ???!!!
 

KenHigg

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...It wasn't a wisecrack but a statement of fact! This saga's dragged on for years and it'll go on even longer

So why do you continue to view it if it upsets you so much? You should take lessons from Mike on being nice to others - :)
 

KenHigg

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I like to read intelligent discussion on the main boards

Ok, just as long as you don't drag them down by posting any responses to them :p
 
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Now that that's resolved, in order to normalize this, I need to know a lot more about each field's definition. Since there are no database rules enforced, I cannot begin to guess what should be happening.

Mike, do you have a data dictionary or any kind of design documentation for this system?

Additionally, I will only commit to working on this for 10 hours, total, and at my discretion. That is an incredible amount of time and represents an opportunity cost to me of $600, less the tax burden. I am willing to do this as a demonstration for the forum.

At the end of the 10 hours, it will be as normalized as it will be done by me (sans an agreement to billing terms). All communication on this exercise will be through this thread only (unless agreed on within this thread for IP or privacy purposes). I will ignore any other form of communication regarding it.

Hopefully, at the end of the 10 hours, I will have demonstrated that you can normalize and still have significant control over your UI.

Also, anything I do on this is for entertainment purposes only! If you decide to use my examples, I expect you to give credit where it is due (including any and all contributors) and all liability in their use is yours.
 
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Mike375

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George,

Do you want me to tell you what each field is about in the two tables that were included etc.

But don't bust your gut. I am mainly interested to see if it can be done. I know I can't do it but I don't have the knowledge on queries you have.

I can type out what you want and stick it in a Word.doc. The stuff I have on it is no good to you because it is all insurance jargon.
 
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