Question Pay for Database "revamp"

[neilq5]

A department in a local college has asked me to "revamp" their Access database for which i will be getting paid. I have been told that the pay will be negotiable.

As i have never done this for money before i really do not know how much i would be entitled to.

Does anyone have any tips on how much i should be getting?

 

[Pat Hartman]

Have you ever developed an Access application by yourself?

How much of a learning exercise is this going to be for you?

Is there a deadline?

 

[neilq5]

Hi Pat,

Thanks for the reply.

I developed a full working application as part of a college project, for which i was told it was beyond excellant. so much infact that i was chosen from the class to do another database for an external company for which i will be getting a set pay.

A deadline has not been finalised yet, but a guess would be for it to be completed before August before the start of the next academic year.

I have been told all records and everything are already there and that it just needs an overhaul but was told it shouldnt be a major job.

What i'm looking for is the average price range as i do not want to end losing out on a lot of money since i don't know how much my work will be worth.

oh and im located in Scotland so i will be getting paid in GBP

 

[Lightwave]

If the process that it will be managing is very valuable I would be inclined to start high and come down.

If the process isn't particularly valuable then it's more of a case of what is the minimum you think your time is worth.

Bear in mind though a full working application (which is complicated) rarely takes less than 3 months to really polish. So what is 3 months of your time worth. If you give yourself £20 an hour (which is cheap for a programmer 3 months is.

Employers of programmers can be very unrealistic in their expectations. You've also got to consider whether further work will come from it. As your first job you might need to charge less than the going rate. It's tricky but something between £2,000 and £5,000.

I think we can only point you in a general direction we don't know the kind of application / the company type etc... A bank for instance would have a very large budget for this kind of thing / a small business quite small and a medium sized business something in between. The irony is that the applications these organisations may need could involve the same amount of time to build on your build.

To a certain extent I think that it is why not many companies hire programmers to build bespoke applications.
Not only can they not spare the time to work with programmers to build something good.
On balance they expect to pay someone so little that they can't find anyone to take the role on for the kind of money they are suggesting.

 

[neilq5]

Thank you for the reply lightwave.

As far as im aware, the database will be of all student information with the college having around 10,000 students.

Although i won't be certain of this until i meet with the staff.

I will look at the application and let the college make me an offer and see where their range is

 

[Lightwave]

Ok neil that's useful I think they will be looking at you because they realise that going to an an outside consultancy to do this they would probably be charged between £10k to £20k

So your sweet spot is probably between £5k and £10k

It will be a bit of a poker game to come to a figure though I think below 3k is probably underselling yourself.

 

[Pat Hartman]

It is not possible to come up with a fixed price without seeing the app and knowing what needs fixing. If you can get them to send the database with dummy data or no data, you will be better equiped to give a reasonable price. Given your experience level, your hourly rate should be low. Probably not more then 20 pounds (no symbol on my keyboard) simply because it will take you much longer than it would take someone like me. It also depends on how much VBA there is in the app. The more VBA, the more difficult it will be for you. If the scope is fuzzy, it would be better for you to negotiate an hourly rate. If the scope is clear and defined in writing with provision for change cotnrol, you can take your chances on a windfall profit and go for a fixed price.

Modifying an app can take as much time as developing a new one from scratch. It depends on the proficiency of the original developer. Did he normalize the tables? Did he use good naming standards? Did he write tons of unnecessary code because he didn't understand the Access object model? Are there written specifications? Will you be expected to produce them? Will there be status reporting requirements? Will you have ready access to the project area experts?

I have been able to go into huge applications and make isolated changes without having to understand the entire application. This sounds like a project where you are going to need to understand what it does in order to figure out how to make it better. That could easily take a couple of days up front and a week over the course of a project for a complex application and several hours or more for a simple one.

Go back over the applications you have built and see if you can come up with your own personal average time for simple, medium, and complex, forms, reports, etc. Development time will be roughly 40-50% of the overall project time. So, once you know how many forms, reports, etc., you can use your personal numbers to calculate the development time and then extrapolate that to total project time.

 

[NigelShaw]

Ok neil that's useful I think they will be looking at you because they realise that going to an an outside consultancy to do this they would probably be charged between £10k to £20k

So your sweet spot is probably between £5k and £10k

It will be a bit of a poker game to come to a figure though I think below 3k is probably underselling yourself.

Hi,

it is a difficult one because of you being a college student at the minute too. with you just saying £5000 might be a shock so i would break it down to weeks days hours-

lets say to settle in your mind £6500

6500 / 25 per hour = 260 hours or 6.5 weeks @ 40 hours per week.

if it was me, i would probably go in with a -

System Knowledge & understanding - 40 hours
Meetings and discussions - 20 hours
Re-design and testing - 160 hours
Revisions and formals - 20 hours
final Build & testing - 5 hours
Presentation - 5 hours

total 260 hours @ £25 per hour

you can break it down as much as you want but its better to do it that way. At my work, i deal with project values of 100k+ if i just went in and said, "hey, its gonna cost you £100k", the Client would choke so we split it down in segments that are more digestable and understandable. If a Client can see where the money is going, They are more likely to accept a cost based on that breakdown.


hope that helps


Nidge

 

[Lightwave]

Good points Nigel

 

[jdraw]

I agree with the comments others have provided. All very good points for a project where not too much is known.
I particularly think Pat's comments in para 2 of post #7 are very on target. People can tell you all of these things exist/are great/ well documented etc, but until you see the database/vba/forms etc, you have NO real data to go on.

Having access to people, or having people make comments/advice/responses to questions in a timely fashion can (and from experience) take longer than anticipated for many reasons. Delays here can really affect your workschedule and deadlines.

Do you have people familiar with the subject matter to review reports/forms? Who exactly is the client (read that as Acceptor of your materials)? Whatever you do, DO NOT even think about rewrite. Your scope should be along the theme of cleanup with minor adjustments/functionality -- and work to narrow the scope from that. You will need suitable test data (good and bad) for tests/refinement.

Because so much is "unclear/unknown", pricing is very difficult as others have said.

This isn't meant to be negative or off-putting in any way, it is just to help bring some factors to the forefront for your consideration.

Good luck with your project, and as always, the forum is always here.