Questions to God. (1 Viewer)

We all have a conscience, imagine that. First, there are certain people who appear to NOT have a conscience. However, I'll let that pass. The problem is that linking that to a proof of God's existence is a non-sequitur. There is no direct path between that statement and your God.
The thing is, all non-tangible things like feelings (emotions), love, suffering to love, logic, ability to reason at all, math, the concept of infinity are simply not part of the physical world at all. None of these obviously real things have mass. They are the type of things of the spirit. All humans have the ability to grow spiritually good (more like God), or less spiritual which is essentially materialistic type thinking.

Playing hokey pokey with some of the good things of God and claiming them to be of natural origin, when nothing that has been made was made without him is stealing his good attributes and claiming them as your own. Our hearts can either soften and open up to the highest qualities of love and spirit as intended or grow cold and distant from them for purely selfish reasons. This is just how we were designed to operate.

Like I said, you are well aware of the non material spiritual things of the heart. So it most certainly follows that spiritual things do not come from the material universe. Where do spiritual things come from?
 
The work of Alan Turing includes a mathematical study of how complexity can arise from nature. It is a biology paper, titled "The Chemical Basis of Morphogenesis" and it describes his theory in something he called a reaction-diffusion system. In it he shows how complexity can spontaneously spring from simplicity.

In essence you create the building blocks of life from the stormy conditions of primordial Earth oceans. Now they are floating around in the mineral-rich oceans, floating in random orientation and moving in more or less random directions, influenced by tidal flow - which is not always uniform. These molecules collide in random orientations. Most of the time, the collisions are passive - but there is this little thing called electrophilic attraction such that it is POSSIBLE for the colliding molecules to stick together chemically - i.e. a chemical reaction. And for small molecules, their virtual surface is COVERED with electrons that can be shared by forming a chemcial bond. That bond is strong enough that the combined molecules stay combined for a while. The more stable the bond, the longer the components stick together.

So now you have these slightly more complex molecules floating around colliding with other molecules... and some of THEM exhibit electrophilic attraction to an active part of the molecule, so THEY react. Here is Nature, bouncing random molecules in random orientation, and SOME few collisions yield greater complexity - because, of course, they are BIGGER now and become easier targets.

So these molecules bounce off of other molecules. Some of the collisions promote increased molecular complexity, others don't. But all this time, for hundreds of millions to a couple of BILLION years, the collisions continue as Nature iterates through the orientation combinations, the moral equivalent of tossing the spaghetti on the wall to see if it sticks. Or of a child playing with Legos to see what will hold together. Iterating through solutions, most of which don't stay together. But some of them do. And it all depends on random collisions of molecules to see what sticks. I went through the math earlier in post #280. You had 4.8 x 10^39 collision possibilities that would be likely to be productive over a time span measured in billions of years.

Let's try something simpler. Do you know how rubies, sapphires, and emeralds form? In solution, chromium oxide molecules collide and become dichromium oxides, then trichromium, etc., forming the start of a crystal that grows layer by layer, driven by the forces implicit in entropy/energy balance. From the simple to the complex. Nature iterating through collision orientations to see what sticks. Sound familiar? See a pattern here?
 
Why do you not accept an infinite universe?
Because to me, semantically and theologically, that's the same thing as believing in God.
In a sense I DO accept that, that's why I believe in God. Someone, or something, put things into existence that weren't in existence. There just isn't a way 'around' that
 
Because to me, semantically and theologically, that's the same thing as believing in God.
In a sense I DO accept that, that's why I believe in God. Someone, or something, put things into existence that weren't in existence. There just isn't a way 'around' that
Except that the latest JWST findings suggest a different physical reality to that concept. Msgr LeMaitre's Big Bang theory was based on incomplete data because no telescope of his day could see as far as JWST can. The "moment of creation" computed by Bishop Ussher (about 6300 years ago) doesn't hold up to science. Now the Big Bang of about 14 billion years ago is also failing to hold up. Which means you can't use the Biblical creation stories any more. If the universe really IS eternal, there goes your "creation" story right out the window.

My more Zen oriented approach is this: The universe exists. Does it appear to require attention? Not at the moment. Can I do anything about it if it DOES require attention? I doubt it. Therefore, l will be myself and the universe can be itself. You posit the existence of God. Can you prove it? No, and in fact your belief system REQUIRES that proof is not an issue. Has God directly communicated to me, or indirectly so, it a way that I can recognize? No, I don't think so. Can I do anything to prove your God's existence? Doesn't look like it. I'll be myself and God can be Himself. Next question?
 
There is no equality between the innocents in Texas and the people of Gaza and I can't believe you make one. The people of Gaza made their own problem. ALL THEY EVER NEEDED TO DO was to stop bombing innocent Israeli civilians. Very simple. READ some history. Israel left Gaza more than 20 years ago. They had their wish of independence. Israel left them with viable businesses and farms, lots of good housing and infrastructure. The Palestinians elected Hamas to rule themselves and that was their downfall. The world has since sent billions of dollars in aid to Gaza. Hamas has stolen it all to buy bombs and arms. As others have pointed out, Hamas even pulled up the water pipes to make rockets. These people are only interested in killing Jews. They live to kill Jews. They are sick and evil. They are getting exactly what they give. What goes around comes around is what we call this. Yes the youngest of the children are innocent as are all young children. But it doesn't take many years to corrupt a child and that is why NO OTHER Arab country will consent to take Palestinian refugees. Think about that for a moment. What does Egypt and Jordan and Syria and Saudi Arabia and Kuwait and Iraq and all the others know that you don't know?

When you shoot bombs into Israel targeting civilians, they shoot back. Duh!!!

This doesn't sound like a free Palestinian people who support Hamas, it sounds like people who themselves are hostages and suffering immensely from lack of food and medical care.
 
The work of Alan Turing includes a mathematical study of how complexity can arise from nature. It is a biology paper, titled "The Chemical Basis of Morphogenesis" and it describes his theory in something he called a reaction-diffusion system. In it he shows how complexity can spontaneously spring from simplicity.

In essence you create the building blocks of life from the stormy conditions of primordial Earth oceans. Now they are floating around in the mineral-rich oceans, floating in random orientation and moving in more or less random directions, influenced by tidal flow - which is not always uniform. These molecules collide in random orientations. Most of the time, the collisions are passive - but there is this little thing called electrophilic attraction such that it is POSSIBLE for the colliding molecules to stick together chemically - i.e. a chemical reaction. And for small molecules, their virtual surface is COVERED with electrons that can be shared by forming a chemcial bond. That bond is strong enough that the combined molecules stay combined for a while. The more stable the bond, the longer the components stick together.

So now you have these slightly more complex molecules floating around colliding with other molecules... and some of THEM exhibit electrophilic attraction to an active part of the molecule, so THEY react. Here is Nature, bouncing random molecules in random orientation, and SOME few collisions yield greater complexity - because, of course, they are BIGGER now and become easier targets.

So these molecules bounce off of other molecules. Some of the collisions promote increased molecular complexity, others don't. But all this time, for hundreds of millions to a couple of BILLION years, the collisions continue as Nature iterates through the orientation combinations, the moral equivalent of tossing the spaghetti on the wall to see if it sticks. Or of a child playing with Legos to see what will hold together. Iterating through solutions, most of which don't stay together. But some of them do. And it all depends on random collisions of molecules to see what sticks. I went through the math earlier in post #280. You had 4.8 x 10^39 collision possibilities that would be likely to be productive over a time span measured in billions of years.

Let's try something simpler. Do you know how rubies, sapphires, and emeralds form? In solution, chromium oxide molecules collide and become dichromium oxides, then trichromium, etc., forming the start of a crystal that grows layer by layer, driven by the forces implicit in entropy/energy balance. From the simple to the complex. Nature iterating through collision orientations to see what sticks. Sound familiar? See a pattern here?
The big assumption here is that meaningful different iterations of something totally unknown to us now are assembling themselves randomly. That just doesn't happen in randomness in anything that is as complex as what we're talking about. How many collisions of numbers and millions of years of mixing of the numbers would it take before the full number of PI out to infinity would line up perfectly and stay that way to be meaningful? NEVER. Not gonna happen, and that's jus one meaningful number in mathematics. The complexity of one single cell that grows by division of itself does not just happen randomly no matter how much time and swirling building blocks soup.

There is more to life than it's fundamental design structure. It's about the way it is constructed so that it actually becomes viable. The timing is super critical. And just how many critical steps are involved in this unknown process? Way too many assumptions being made here to be remotely valid, but thanks for at least showing me where your thinking is. Allen really was treated badly near the end of his short life. The guy had a brilliant mind for math and ciphers.

As far as rubies and sapphires, that's very similar to a snow flake, so nothing inherently complex about a crystal. They are unique, but so are clouds, so what. There is no life in crystals or snow flakes and while they might appear to be complex, they are really not unless you count the ones that superman uses in the movie. Now those were some special crystals.:)
 
That just doesn't happen in randomness in anything that is as complex as what we're talking about.

With due respect and no intention of maliciousness or rudeness, your statement is incorrect.

Before life started, nature did what nature does. It scrambled things and if something useful fell out of the mix, great. If not, it doesn't matter. After life started at the unicellular level, it progressed to multi-cellular entities, then more and more cells tacked on. And at each stage, that which survives had some minor (or in some cases, major) advantage that allowed it to compete just a little better than those other creatures around it.

The genomes of many species have been fully explored and we KNOW which species is the predecessor of other species. The DNA is a roadmap to the evolutionary path. This is KNOWN AND FACTUAL from biologists and paleontologists. We know Man's predecessors, members of the Hominid group. Folks sometimes try to throw up the straw man that we are evolved from monkeys, but in genealogical terms, monkeys are our (distant) cousins, not ancestors. Man was not created, Man evolved / developed over time.

Then, there is the matter of viruses - which by consensus among many biological disciplines, are NOT alive. Even so, COVID mutated in ways to cause lots of disruption to living people. Since viruses aren't alive, would it bother you if THEY were created spontaneously?

Your statement regarding pi is not relevant, as irrational numbers have nothing to do with permutations and combinations of cell orientation. But if you dislike irrational numbers, you can consider the Euler relationships, which include the consideration of e and pi and the imaginary number i.

Just to clarify...
e = 2.718281828459045235360287471352... - an irrational number the basis of so-called natural logarithms.
pi = 3.141592653589793238462643383279502884197... - an irrational number that is the ratio of the circumference to the diameter of a circle
i (in math) = square root of -1 - referred to as the imaginary number.

e^(i x pi) = 1

There, that got rid of the irrational numbers for you, right? An irrational number raised to an imaginary number times another irrational number ... equals the most rational number you could ever want... 1.
 

Users who are viewing this thread

Back
Top Bottom