The Qur'an

[Galaxiom]

There is nothing rational whatsoever in believing that all things in existence came from nothing by magic. Your faith in that requires a lot more faith than mine

There is no magic involved in the scientific explanation of the evolution of the Universe. Every process from the first single pixel of intense amorphous energy through to what we see today all precisely follows the fundamental laws of Physics.

Your story is of a Universe that was created via incantation of magical spells in various forms of "let there be" by the most complex entity possible, that somehow already existed despite no explanation whatsoever for where or how it came about. The magical stories continue with people coming back to life, seas parting, walls falling when people march around blowing trumpets, impossible floods, people wandering around in the desert for forty years and living for hundreds of years. Of course none of this can happen any more, simply because that is God's inexplicable will. It is complete and utter nonsense that defies any rational assessment.

The sole source of these "explanations" was ancient men who presumed their personal prejudices and superstitions were truths given to them by an imaginary deity. You believe in it because you were indoctrinated before you had the capacity for rational thought. And you can't bear to consider the possibility of being wrong because you have invested so heavily in the idea that holding these beliefs would grant you eternal life.

 

[Isaac]

There is no magic involved in the scientific explanation of the evolution of the Universe

I didn't speak of the evolution of it, I spoke of the beginning of it.

 

[aziz rasul]

“Do not the Unbelievers see that the heavens and the earth (meaning the universe) were (once) one single entity (ratq), which We (meaning God, the Creator) then parted asunder (fataqa) and We got every living thing out of water. Will they then not [begin to] believe?”
Qur’an - Surah al-Anbiyaa (The Prophets) 21:30 See also 6:73, 21:56, 24:45 and 25:54.

The Originator of the heavens and the earth! When He decreeth a thing, He saith unto it only: Be! and it is.
Qur’an - Surah al-Baqara (The Heifer) 2:117 See also 35:1, 52:35, 59:24 and Psalm 19:1-3.

“The heaven, We have built it with (Our creative) power. Verily, it is We who are steadily expanding it.”
Qur’an - Surah az-Zaariyat (The Winnowing Winds) 51:47 See also Jeremiah 10:12

Allaah also challenges the disbelievers to create out of nothing.

 

[The_Doc_Man]

Allaah also challenges the disbelievers to create out of nothing.

The experiment to observe "spontaneous pair production" has been done. But Allah's challenge is misguided. WE (humanity) aren't the origin of "create out of nothing." That is a natural event. Which, if Allah was so powerful, could prevent us from observing. Yet.. it has been observed. With no prayers beforehand, unless one of the researches said something like, "Jesus Christ, I hope this works." Does that count as an earnest prayer?

 

[Isaac]

These Koran verses...I mean gee, talk about derivative. They're all just paraphrases of the Bible.

 

[Mike Krailo]

G. might or might not say that, but I won't. I would use the word "misguided" and yes, a very large population group IS misguided. The extremely virulent religious types? David Koresh, Jim Jones, Claude Vorilhon (of Raelism)... THEY count as irrational. I don't count L. Ron Hubbard, the founder of Scientology, as irrational. He did it because of the tax breaks associated with having your own religion. L. Ron was ALWAYS the shyster, ALWAYS trying to "game the system." No comments on the classification of his successor David Miscavige. Some levels of Looney Tunes are beyond my analysis skills.

I was very lucky not to get sucked into the Scientology cult. The carrot they dangle out there for you is very provocative because they claim to be able to get your spirit out of your body. I have met plenty of folks that achieved that, but it becomes like a drug and their church charges a ton of money to get their services and you get completely brain washed and drained of all money in the process of becoming what they call clear. And good luck getting out of the cult as there system is setup to drain you of everything you have financially and then due to all the personal secrets they get out of you from the auditing, they own you after that. At least L. Ron wasn't as ruthless as David Miscavige is, it has gone way down hill. I got a taste of it from an unauthorized source that was overseas at the time. I also got to look though his library of expensive books and most of it looks very plausible and enticing to be a part of, but the mind control techniques used are very powerful and can take down just about anyone unless you have a ton of money to begin with like Tom Cruise. If it wasn't lead by corrupt leaders who want to control you to the nth degree for their own personal power, it has a lot of good things in it, but I feel sorry for those that are trapped inside the close knit system they have created. Even the police are in on it in the places where the larger organization are.

The experiment to observe "spontaneous pair production" has been done.

And what happened after that pair production? Nothing. There are a lot of things they claim to have done in a sterile and highly controlled environment. That's called manipulation from a higher power. They never observed that occurring in good old primordial soup without first putting the soup together. Then the next stages of what must occur must be done with a high degree of precision in a very short period of time or there will never be any replication. How is this going to happen without outside manipulation? So there all sorts of papers that boast about different aspects of it, but it's a very long way from watching the current biological process of an animal replicating from cells into a living creature. That process is pretty darn fast, isn't it?

There is just no way any human will ever create life from non-living material and observe an accidental chain reaction of cellular replication without first starting with living cells. Any of them that tell you they can do anything remotely like that are the real shysters of science. If something happened without any guidance from any higher power, they why do they need to direct the process? Tough nut to crack when you cannot intervene in any way.

 

[aziz rasul]

The experiment to observe "spontaneous pair production" has been done....

Pair production is the creation of a subatomic particle and its antiparticle from a neutral boson.

The challenge is to create something out of nothing. Hence YOU are the one who is misguided.

These Koran verses...I mean gee, talk about derivative. They're all just paraphrases of the Bible.

The author of the Torah and Qur'an is Allaah and hence the parts of the Torah that has not been corrupted by the writers of Torah and has been preserved and will of course match with the preserved Qur'an.

Those parts of the Torah, which have been corrupted\changed, of course will NOT match e.g., scientific facts in the corrupted Torah are incorrect but not in the case of the Qur'an.

We verily gave Moses the Scripture and placed with him his brother Aaron as minister.
Qur’an - Surah al-Furqan (The Criterion) 25:35

No just estimate of Allaah do they make when they say: “Nothing doth Allaah send down to man (by way of revelation)” Say: “Who then sent down the Book which Moses brought? - a light and guidance to man: But ye make it into (separate) sheets for show, while ye conceal much (of its contents): therein were ye taught that which ye knew not- neither ye nor your fathers.” Say: “Allaah (sent it down)”: Then leave them to plunge in vain discourse and trifling.
Qur’an - Surah al-An’aam (Cattle) 6:91

Indeed, We sent down the Torah, in which was guidance and light. The prophets who submitted [to Allaah] judged by it for the Jews, as did the rabbis and scholars by that with which they were entrusted of the Scripture of Allaah, and they were witnesses thereto. So do not fear the people but fear Me, and do not exchange My verses for a small price. And whoever does not judge by what Allaah has revealed – then it is those who are the disbelievers.
Qur’an 5:44

Do you covet [the hope, O believers], that they would believe for you while a party of them used to hear the words of Allaah and then distort the Torah after they had understood it while they were knowing?
Qur’an 2:75

But those of them [the Jews] who are firmly rooted in knowledge, and the believers, believe in what has been sent down to you and what was sent down before you.
Qur'an 4:162

 

[Mike Krailo]

The author of the Torah and Qur'an is Allaah and hence the parts of the Torah that has not been corrupted by the writers of Torah and has been preserved and will of course match with the preserved Qur'an.

Those parts of the Torah, which have been corrupted\changed, of course will NOT match e.g., scientific facts in the corrupted Torah are incorrect but not in the case of the Qur'an.

When you get a chance Aziz, do you mind showing us all exactly where this corruption is that you speak of. No generalization please. Give us some specific things you regard as being corrupted that actually changes the meaning of the original text in a meaningful way. If you do have something specific, then show us the un-corrupted version. The Quran says we have an uncorrupted bible, don't you trust the Quran?

 

[aziz rasul]

Give us some specific things you regard as being corrupted that actually changes the meaning of the original text in a meaningful way.

I already gave you an indication. Look at the scientific verses e.g., 6 earthly days of creation rather than 6 periods of creation as the Qur'an states.

The fact that you mention the word 'meaningful' suggests you have already accepting that there is a problem with the Bible.

We don't have the original pristine Torah (given to Moses) and the Injeel (given to Jesus, which we don't have) so how can anyone show you the uncorrupted version. If the originals already existed, these would be the documents we would refer to, not the corrupted Torah. What you are saying makes no sense.

The Qur'an indeed says you have corrupted previous scripture as my last post showed.

 

[The_Doc_Man]

The challenge is to create something out of nothing. Hence YOU are the one who is misguided.

Sorry, but you are wrong and in this case, the only requirement is an electrostatic field.

Schwinger effect - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

The pair comes into existence WITHOUT a prior boson. You were describing a PARTICLE DECAY event, not a pair production event. Stop trying to deflect the real-world truth.

 

[The_Doc_Man]

There is just no way any human will ever create life from non-living material and observe an accidental chain reaction of cellular replication without first starting with living cells.

You are asking too much for the time-scale of human experimentation. Current theory says it took a long time - hundreds of thousands or even a few millions of years. It is hard for a researcher to wait that long for an experiment to run. But here is a good description of the Miller-Urey experiment that created amino acids, the building blocks of our life.

Miller–Urey experiment - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

 

[Galaxiom]

Look at the scientific verses e.g., 6 earthly days of creation rather than 6 periods of creation as the Qur'an states.

Please don't mention science in your religious delusions. Science and religion are utterly unrelated.

 

[Galaxiom]

I didn't speak of the evolution of it, I spoke of the beginning of it.

I'm not talking about Darwinian Evolution but the evolution of the Universe itself.

It is amusing how you so desperately try to deflect from the reality that conflicts with your delusional beliefs.

Anything but consider that you have spent vast amounts of your life in pursuit of a promise of eternal life that will never be fulfilled. Sucker.

 

[aziz rasul]

Sorry, but you are wrong and in this case, the only requirement is an electrostatic field.

Sorry, but you are wrong and in this case, the requirement is to create a particle or similar without the AID of anything already existing be it an electric field etc.

 

[Mike Krailo]

In a world full of something, it's going to be real hard to put your hands on nothing.

 

[aziz rasul]

Please don't mention science in your religious delusions. Science and religion are utterly unrelated.

I have the right to express my opinions as a Muslim as I see fit and remain true to myself, much as you may dislike it or be deluded.
I will not be silenced about my beliefs.

In the meantime, here are some Qur'anic verses relating to science.

Verse 41:11, posted above, indicates a gaseous universe that existed in time past. The earth did not exist as a physical entity in the early universe.

It’s interesting to note that when God refers to the universe in the Qur’an, in the vast majority of cases (192 occasions) He uses the phrase ‘heavens and the earth’ or ‘heavens and on the earth’. In 41:11 the word heaven is not followed by the words ‘and [on] the earth’ as the early universe did not contain a physical Earth. Other verses where the word ‘heavens’ is used in isolation are 2:29, 3:5, 13:2, 17:95, 21:104, 23:86, 32:5, 40:37, 41:12, 67:3, 71:15 and 78:12.

By the heaven full of paths,
Qur’an - Surah az-Zaariyat (The Winnowing Winds) 51:7

15. So verily I call to witness the Planets (khunnas) that recede,
16. Go straight, or hide;
Qur’an - Surah at-Takwir (The Overthrowing) 81:15-16

“(God) is the One Who created the night, the day, the Sun and the Moon. Each one is travelling in an orbit with its own motion.”
Qur’an - Surah al-Anbiyaa (The Prophets) 21:33 See also 6:96-7, 7:54, 10:5, 14:33, 16:16, 36:40 and 39:5.

Seest thou not that Allaah merges Night into Day and he merges Day into Night; that He has subjected the sun, and the moon (to his Law), each running its course for a term appointed; and that Allaah is well-acquainted with all that ye do?
Qur’an - Surah Luqman (Luqman) 31:29

It is He who made the sun a shining light and the moon a derived light and determined for it phases - that you may know the number of years and account [of time]. Allaah has not created this except in truth. He details the signs for a people who know.
Qur’an 10:5

The Bible talks about the moon as producing light, which is incorrect.

 

[aziz rasul]

In a world full of something...

Hence, man is not able to do this. This is one of many challenges that God has given the disbelievers 14 centuries ago.

 

[Isaac]

Please don't mention science in your religious delusions. Science and religion are utterly unrelated.

You should study Blake Pascal a little bit. He has some great quotes about how mankind runs around trying to fill the void in their soul with various things but none of us really can unless it's with God because we were created to have a relationship with god. Most scientists were Christians up until recently

 

[Isaac]

If I come across a sand castle, I don't assume that it was created by another sandcastle. I realize something more intelligent than it created it. If I come across a bird's nest, I don't assume that it was created by another bird's nest that would be silly. Something greater and bigger and more intelligent than humans created humans. That's the obvious fact that can't be explained away no matter how many scientific mumbo jumbo things you quote to deflect... The only one who's attention you're deflecting is your own. It's called self deception

 

[aziz rasul]

Who is that directed to?

I have great respect for science that agrees with the Qur'an. Scientific laws itself were created by God.