The Qur'an

[The_Doc_Man]

Aziz,

Since you speak of the flawless Quran, I thought you might enjoy an article by someone who doesn't share your enthusiasm or opinion. He doesn't have the greatest skills in presentation, and English does not appear to be his primary language, but his arguments are surely interesting. And they expose a couple of basic flaws of the Quran. Don't tell ME that the Quran has no errors. Listen to the linked video. The same person has made several videos along the same vein. Like I said, don't blame ME for someone else's claims.

 

[Galaxiom]

If I come across a sand castle, I don't assume that it was created by another sandcastle. I realize something more intelligent than it created it. If I come across a bird's nest, I don't assume that it was created by another bird's nest that would be silly. Something greater and bigger and more intelligent than humans created humans. That's the obvious fact that can't be explained away no matter how many scientific mumbo jumbo things you quote to deflect... The only one who's attention you're deflecting is your own. It's called self deception

And your god, the most complex then possible, came from .........?

There is no law that says something more complex is required to cause something to exist.

Your inability to understand science does not make it wrong.

Religion is the mumbo jumbo and nobody is better deceived than the religious devotee.

 

[The_Doc_Man]

There is no law that says something more complex is required to cause something to exist.

The late Alan Turing discussed the natural incidence of complexity starting from non-complex origins.

Turing pattern - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

This article should offer a starting point. The basic statement? Complexity can arise spontaneously through the interaction of natural forces.

 

[ebs17]

Nucleosynthesis - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

What could "God" make from just hydrogen or prozones and neutrons and electrons?

Higher elements are only created through nuclear fusion, which takes place in suns over very long periods of time. Elements with higher atomic numbers than iron are only created through supernova explosions.

Everything that surrounds us and what we are made of is stardust, waste from stars that long ago had their own existence.

 

[The_Doc_Man]

What could "God" make from just hydrogen or prozones and neutrons and electrons?

Believe it or not, I actually have to do a "Devil's Advocate" here.

I have made my position clear and will not back away from my disbelief in "divine beings." I do not believe in the existence of God, Allah, Jehovah, and any other of the many deities that this planet's people have worshiped over the millennia.

Having said that, if we are going to discuss this with an eye towards the claimed omnipotence of these beings, the answer to the quoted question is "Anything he wants." The god of the believers (small "g" because I'm being generic for the moment) is reputedly able to create a whole universe. Why should we quibble about what that god could do with something since the premise is that the god can make things WITHOUT something? It is a misdirected argument.

My disbelief comes from the absurdity implied by omnipotence and the logical contradictions of an omnipotent god who can do anything but who CHOOSES to allow poverty, disease, crime, and hatred to run rampant on a beautiful paradise of a world that has been befouled by his own creations. This speaks of a being who is not an omnipotent benevolent god but rather is a petulant and uncaring child... like a child who played with his toys but then got bored with them. Are we like Woody and his friends from Toy Story?

The question I have is, if this proposed god is so powerful and so loving, why is he also totally absent? "Oh, you see him in his works," they say. I see a neglected world where the all-powerful, all-knowing, all-seeing god has turned a blind eye to his creation and its inhabitants... who were ALSO his creation.

I see people saying "God will provide." Then I look at poverty and pandemics and pollution. I look at starvation. (At this point, I will interject that my wife and I choose to donate to charities that combat hunger. That's what WE have chosen to do.)

People say, "God preaches that we should love one another," and I agree it is a great ideal. But then I see hatred at a national level. I see mass killings in wars over territory. I see greed flourishing. I see human trafficking in war-torn regions and in poor regions.

I see misery from a world shepherded by an omnipotent - but totally absent - being. I see things that could EASILY be explained by saying "There is no god. All we see is based on more or less random actions powered by greed." And I wonder what it will take for the believers to pause long enough to ask the tough questions that would lead to TRUE enlightenment, to see the TRUE randomness of life in a world of stress.

 

[ebs17]

@The_Doc_Man
I agree with every word you say.
Catholics fought and are fighting against Protestants, Sunnis fought and are fighting against Shiites, and the representatives of the "one God" always bless the weapons and the perpetrators. This absurdity can only be described as you did.

 

[Isaac]

Witnessed an amazing miracle of God today - in our congregation there was an elderly woman who had been battling stage 4 cancer, down to 88 pounds, the doctors had all agreed - there is nothing more we can do for you, you have a short while left to live.

She went into the office Friday and they said, it's a miracle, the cancer is totally gone.

Wow Praise God! He still does miracles like he did 2000 years ago and we see a lot of them which helps to encourage our faith

 

[ebs17]

She went into the office Friday and they said, it's a miracle, the cancer is totally gone.

Now she's trading health insurance for the Bible, and the profits are being donated to the poor...
An even greater miracle.

 

[Mike Krailo]

Witnessed an amazing miracle of God today - in our congregation there was an elderly woman who had been battling stage 4 cancer, down to 88 pounds, the doctors had all agreed - there is nothing more we can do for you, you have a short while left to live.

She went into the office Friday and they said, it's a miracle, the cancer is totally gone.

Wow Praise God! He still does miracles like he did 2000 years ago and we see a lot of them which helps to encourage our faith

I'm counting on you Isaac to get the doctors written accounts of the before and after of the this for all our unbelieving friends out there. Maybe an interview with the woman would be good as well.

There is going to be many more miracles going forward Isaac. The human spirit is strong, but when you add faith, prayer, and glorification of God, it becomes unstoppable.

 

[ebs17]

"Religion is the sigh of the oppressed creature, the mind of a heartless world, just as it is the spirit of mindless conditions. It is the opium of the people," is one of Karl Marx's most famous quotes.

 

[aziz rasul]

Since you speak of the flawless

The Qur'an IS FLAWLESS and contains NO ERRORS. You can freely believe whatever you want. No one will suffer the punishment of another.

These videos all suffer from the same deceit, i.e., they start of on a FALSE premise and then come to a conclusion based on that FALSE premise.

The Arabic word as-Samaa does NOT mean sky. If you look up Qur'an 51:47 in Corpus Qur'an i.e.,

Sahih International: And the heaven We constructed with strength, and indeed, We are [its] expander.
Pickthall: We have built the heaven with might, and We it is Who make the vast extent (thereof).
Yusuf Ali: With power and skill did We construct the Firmament: for it is We Who create the vastness of pace.
Shakir: And the heaven We raised it high with power, and most surely We are the makers of things ample.
Muhammad Sarwar: We have made the heaven with Our own hands and We expanded it.
Mohsin Khan: With power did We construct the heaven Verily, We are Able to extend the vastness of space thereof.
Arberry: And heaven -- We built it with might, and We extend it wide.

Even George Sale's translation (https://quran12-21.org/en/surahs/s51) says

We have built the heaven with might; and we have given it a large extent:

George Sale wasn't even a fan of Islam, but did not attempt to translate incorrectly.

Also, no where in the Qur'an does it say that the heavens has mass. Interesting to note that the person in the video gave NO Qur'anic verse to prove this.

If the video you have posted is the best you can do, you are not going to get anywhere. In the long run, much easier to ACCEPT the TRUTH than REJECT it.

Non Muslims and so called ex Muslims (who probably were never Muslims in the first place but simply say so, so that they can show that as previous Muslims they rejected Islam, this is what Jews did 1400 years ago to denounce Islam by pretending to be Muslims) are in my experience never going to be TRUTHFUL.

Here's an alternative video link.

- The Quran Mentions the Universe is Expanding 1400 years ago - Dr Zakir Naik

I thought you might enjoy the video by someone who doesn't share your opinion. His arguments are surely interesting. Look to the linked video. The same person has made several videos along the same vein.

 

[aziz rasul]

"Religion is the sigh of the oppressed creature,...

“The legislation of Quran will spread all over the world, because it agrees with the mind, logic and wisdom.” – Leo Tolstoy

“It was the first religion that preached and practiced democracy; for, in the mosque, when the call for prayer is sounded and worshippers are gathered together, the democracy of Islam is embodied five times a day when the peasant and king kneel side by side and proclaim: ‘God Alone is Great’… “ – Sarojini Naidu

 

[The_Doc_Man]

“The legislation of Quran will spread all over the world, because it agrees with the mind, logic and wisdom.” – Leo Tolstoy

“It was the first religion that preached and practiced democracy; for, in the mosque, when the call for prayer is sounded and worshippers are gathered together, the democracy of Islam is embodied five times a day when the peasant and king kneel side by side and proclaim: ‘God Alone is Great’… “ – Sarojini Naidu

It would seem that your definition of democracy does not coincide with my definition. By MY standards, women would be able to tell you to go buzz off every time you mention "burka" and every time you curtail education of women. What Islam shows to the world is NOT democracy. However, I concede that IF you call that "democracy" then you are a democratic group. And it tells me that since you use the "it means what I say it means" method of definition, there will be no argument because you will bend words to be your servants, ignoring traditional meanings to suit your beliefs.

This is therefore an unwinnable argument because you aren't using standard definitions.

 

[Isaac]

"Religion is the sigh of the oppressed creature, the mind of a heartless world, just as it is the spirit of mindless conditions. It is the opium of the people," is one of Karl Marx's most famous quotes.

It sure is helpful to encourage people to try to do good though. And boy you get so much guidance love peace joy I mean I don't know how anyone could turn it down and all free.

Not religion really, but a relationship with God instead

 

[conception_native_0123]

Catholics fought and are fighting against Protestants

NOT

 

[conception_native_0123]

the cancer is totally gone.

good stories

 

[conception_native_0123]

I laughed when I saw on the youtube "the holy quaran"

 

[aziz rasul]

It would seem that your definition of democracy

In Islam, we follow the rules of the Qur'an and Sunnah, that includes men AND women. Muslim women shouldn't have to be told to wear the jilbaab, if God expressly mentions it in the Qur'an. A Muslim society has to conform just as other societies conform to their standards. Although, I am sure that their are many western men who tell their wives not to wear any inappropriate clothing and the women shout back at them for saying so.

Show me where it says that women cannot be educated? You are just making wild statements without any foundation from the Qur'an and Sunnah.

What Islam shows to the world is Islam, to the best of our ability. We don't have to follow the rules of the disbelievers and we don't bend any words. I can't help it if you fail to understand what Islam is about. Those who do, sometimes revert to Islam.

I could argue that you bend your vocabulary to suit your mindset, which I don't agree with.

This is therefore an unwinnable argument because you aren't using Islamic standard definitions.

1. Say (O Muhammad) : O ye that reject Faith!
2. I worship not that which ye worship,
3. Nor will ye worship that which I worship.
4. And I will not worship that which ye have been won't to worship,
5. Nor will ye worship that which I worship.
6. Unto you your religion, and unto me my religion.
Qur'an al Kafirun 109:1-6

Allaah has set a seal upon their hearts and upon their hearing, and over their vision is a veil. And for them is a great punishment.
Qur'an 2:7

On the Day of Judgement it will be Islamic rulings that will count.

 

[The_Doc_Man]

Show me where it says that women cannot be educated?

According to the news article, it can be inferred from Sharia - but if Islam were a democracy as you suggest, the women would have been able to overturn that interpretation.

2 years ago, the Taliban banned girls from school. It’s a worsening crisis for all Afghans

Two years after the Taliban banned girls from school beyond sixth grade, Afghanistan is the only country in the world with restrictions on female education.

apnews.com

I can hardly wait for you to pull out the "No true Scotsman" fallacy of argument.

 

[aziz rasul]

Show me where it says that women cannot be educated from the Qur'an and Sunnah.

What some Muslims do or don't do is irrelevant.

After all, the west indulge in five poisons that the Qur'an prohibits

Sexual immorality
Gambling
Alcoholism
Drug abuse
Usury

and the effects that the above have on society and family structure despite the west claiming to uphold so called Christian values.