The Qur'an

[Mike Krailo]

In Islam, we follow the rules of the Qur'an and Sunnah

And how many rules are there exactly? Is any one rule higher than another? What if the Ishmael lineage is not blessed by God (Allah) and Isaac's line is? Then you will find yourself bound by many rules and not able to follow the most important one. Jesus did not come into the world to save the righteous pious people that follow religious rules and traditions, but the sinners. He performed many miracles that glorified God through him and your Quran for some odd reason leaves out a large part of his ministry. It does refer to the Bible though as being accurate, but your traditions of men have seen to it that they will cover the truth over with the lie that the Bible is corrupted. I asked you for specifics on the so called corruptions, but you continue to avoid that.

Those who follow religious rules are not free. They are bound by the law and in that process have also become bound by traditional beliefs they add into it and call it the law. The amount of additional rules is absurdly religious in nature and is not the way, the truth, or the life.

I would love to know where in the Quran it tells all of it's followers to march around a giant black cube with a black stone in the corner? Is that a rule or a tradition of men?

 

[Isaac]

After all, the west indulge in five poisons that the Qur'an prohibits

Sexual immorality
Gambling
Alcoholism
Drug abuse
Usury

and the effects that the above have on society and family structure despite the west claiming to uphold so called Christian values

Well, I can't argue with that!

 

[The_Doc_Man]

To be honest, the Bible doesn't condone those things either, so we can't say there is a particular difference between the Bible and the Quran on that issue.

 

[aziz rasul]

Jesus did not come into the world to save the righteous pious people that follow religious rules and traditions ...

And in their footsteps, We sent Jesus the son of Mary, confirming the Law that had come before him.
Qur'an 5:46

36 “Teacher, which commandment in the law is the greatest?”
37 He said to him, “‘You shall love the Lord YOUR God with all your heart, and with all your soul, and with all your mind.’
38 This is the greatest and first commandment.
Matthew 22:36-38 See also

And whoever invokes besides Allaah another deity for which he has no proof - then his account is only with his Lord. Indeed, the disbelievers will not succeed.
Qur'an 23:117

Hear, O Israel: The Lord is our God, the Lord alone.
Deuteronomy 6:4

"I am the LORD, and there is no other; apart from me there is no God."
Isaiah 45:5

17 Do not think that I have come to abolish the law or the prophets; I have come to fulfil.
18 For truly I tell you, until heaven and earth pass away, not one letter, not one stroke of a letter, will pass from the law until all is accomplished.
19 Therefore, whoever breaks one of the least of these commandments, and teaches others to do the same, will be called least in the kingdom of heaven; but whoever does them and teaches them will be called great in the kingdom of heaven.
20 For I tell you, unless your righteousness exceeds that of the scribes and Pharisees, you will never enter the kingdom of heaven.
Matthew 5:17-20

However Paul tells us to put the law to one side i.e.
By SETTING ASIDE IN HIS FLESH THE LAW with its commands and regulations. His purpose was to create in himself one new humanity out of the two, thus making peace.
Ephesians 2:15

And this is eternal life, that they may know you (meaning the Father), the only TRUE God, and Jesus Christ whom you have sent.
John 17:3

He performed many miracles ...

So did other Prophets by the aid of God, so what?

God puts what He thinks is required in the Qur'an. It is not for us to dictate to God.

It does refer to the Bible though as being accurate, ...

Does it, despite me giving Qur'anic verses that said the opposite! Are their are any contradictions, no matter how small, in the current Bible? For example, the story of the adulterous woman does not appear in the earliest copy of the NT. Why was added later?

Those who follow religious rules are not free.

You are entitled to your opinion. I feel fully free by SUBMITTING to the commands of God and trying to be OBEDIENT to Him, as best as I can. Minor sins are forgiven by God.

 

[aziz rasul]

I would love to know where in the Quran...

The Ka’abah is built in Bakkah (the ancient name of Makkah), Arabia as the first place of worship dedicated to the One God by Adam (peace be upon him) and Archangel Gabriel (peace be upon him). They go around the Ka’abah seven times symbolising unity and focusing on their worship of the One God.

Verily, the first House (of worship) appointed for mankind was that at Bakkah, full of blessing, and guidance for the peoples.
Qur’an - Surah al-`Imraan (The Family of `Imraan) 3:96 See also The Psalms 84:4-6.

Allaah made the Ka'abah, the Sacred House, an asylum of security for men.
Qur’an - Surah al-Ma’aida (The Table Spread) 5:97 See also 106:3

Many centuries later Abraham (Arabic - Ibrahim) and his son Ishmael (Arabic – Isma’il) rebuilt the Ka’abah on the very same spot as Adam and Gabriel (peace be upon them) had built.

There is also a well called Zum Zum where the water started to gush out at the time that Abraham left his second wife Hagar and eldest son Ismail.

Then God opened her eyes, and she saw a well of water. She went and filled the skin with water and gave the boy a drink.
Genesis 21:19

4. Happy are those who live in your house, ever singing your praise. Selah
5. Happy are those whose strength is in you, in whose heart are the highways to Zion.
6. As they go through the valley of Baca, they make it a place of springs; the early rain also covers it with pools.
Psalm 84:4-6

We don't worship the Kaaba or the Hajr-e-Aswad. We worship God alone.

Literally, Ka’abah in Arabic means a high place with respect and prestige.

125. Remember We made the House a place of assembly for men and a place of safety; and take ye the station of Abraham as a place of prayer; and We covenanted with Abraham and Isma'il, that they should sanctify My House for those who compass it round, or use it as a retreat, or bow, or prostrate themselves (therein in prayer).
126. And remember Abraham said: “My Lord, make this a City of Peace, and feed its people with fruits,-such of them as believe in Allaah and the Last Day.” He said: “(Yea), and such as reject Faith,-for a while will I grant them their pleasure, but will soon drive them to the torment of Fire,- an evil destination (indeed)!”
127. And remember Abraham and Isma'il raised the foundations of the House (With this prayer): “Our Lord! Accept (this service) from us: For Thou art the All-Hearing, the All-knowing.
Qur’an - Surah al-Baqara (The Heifer) 2:125-7

26. And when We assigned for Abraham the place of the House, saying “Do not associate Anything with Me, and purify My House for those who go around it and for those who stand and bow and prostrate themselves in worship.
27. And proclaim the Pilgrimage among humankind: They will come to you on foot and on every camel made lean by travelling deep, distant ravines.
Qur’an – Surah al-Hajj (The Pilgrimage) 22:26-7 See also 22:29

We have certainly seen the turning of your face, [O Muhammad], toward the heaven, and We will surely turn you to a qiblah with which you will be pleased. So turn your face toward al-Masjid al-haram. And wherever you [believers] are, turn your faces toward it [in prayer]. Indeed, those who have been given the Scripture well know that it is the truth from their Lord. And Allaah is not unaware of what they do.
Qur’an 2:144

“Whoever performs Hajj for Allaah’s pleasure and does not have any marital relations with his wife, and does not do evil or sins then he will return (after Hajj free from all sins) as if he were born anew.”
A saying of Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him) Sahih Bukhari

 

[Mike Krailo]

I think our culture in general has gone way down hill because of the education system has been stripped of God and in it's place we have evolution pushed into their head. If you are not bound to any higher morals, as is the case with evolution lovers, there is plenty of immorality in general. Especially sexual anything goes attitude and a distain for anyone who is not like you or doesn't think like you do. The hatred for others who are not part of your group think is going down a dangerous path of destruction. Then the killing of babies in the womb is making our country look completely Godless. Families are not what they used to be 70 years ago. So we have a lot of work to do to get back to being a God fearing nation that is under God, not over him.

So did other Prophets by the aid of God, so what?

This is where your lack of info on Jesus' ministry shows that you do not have the spirit in you. You scoff at miracles that confirm him as the Son of Man as he liked to call himself. The so what attitude you have is not of the spirit. There is a huge difference between a sinning prophet that turns to God or becomes obedient and one who starts off sinless and never needed to repent from anything. Jesus said at his last supper: Take eat, this is my body (holding the bread and breaking it). And he took a cup, and when he gave thanks he gave it them, saying "Drink of it, all of you, for this is my blood of the covenant, which is poured out for many for the forgiveness of sins."

This verse strikes me as very intriguing because of the use of US, OUR, and OUR again. Who exactly is God referring to when using the plural pronouns?

Gen 1:26 Then God said, “Let us make man in our image, after our likeness. And let them have dominion over the fish of the sea and over the birds of the heavens and over the livestock and over all the earth and over every creeping thing that creeps on the earth.”

Then in the very next verse it shifts back to singular form.

Gen 1:27 So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them.

“Whoever performs Hajj for Allaah’s pleasure and does not have any marital relations with his wife, and does not do evil or sins then he will return (after Hajj free from all sins) as if he were born anew.”
A saying of Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him) Sahih Bukhari

That's definitely not of God's spirit. If it were so, then everyone with indwelt holy spirit would have been told this from the spirit itself. No such message comes from his spirit. You are simply listening to a confused man and building religious traditions around it.

 

[Galaxiom]

If you are not bound to any higher morals, as is the case with evolution lovers, there is plenty of immorality in general. Especially sexual anything goes attitude and a distain for anyone who is not like you or doesn't think like you do. The hatred for others who are not part of your group think is going down a dangerous path of destruction.

You are doing a pretty good job of showing disdain (which is no doubt the word you meant) to those who don't think like you do.

In fact, disdain for those who are different goes right to the foundation of your horrible faith.

Like the Islamic person on this thread, you need to realise that quoting from your stupid book doesn't add any weight to your argument. The claim that God created man in his own image has to be one of the most ridiculous of all.

 

[Mike Krailo]

You are doing a pretty good job of showing disdain (which is no doubt the word you meant) to those who don't think like you do.

In fact, disdain for those who are different goes right to the foundation of your horrible faith.

You mean like God disdain's for sin and darkness? I don't hate or disdain anyone, including my Muslim friends. All believers are to exercise discernment with fellow believers, it's sometimes not easy to do well but I see that Aziz is missing critical information and needs to know about it. It is unfortunate that tradition and religion have to get in the way of true faith that leads to something far beyond just being a good person. A good person that has God on their side can experience the fullness of God's spirit which leads to life and his spirit can teach you directly so that we can be fully human and operating in a way that glorifies God. A good person that does not know God or a desire to know God, has no hope other than their own selfish desire to put themselves or man above God for the sake of the short time they know they have left. I know you don't believe in his existence, but if he is real (a person), how do you think that makes him feel? And in spite of this, he loves you anyway.

As far as scripture is concerned, the spirit of God is all throughout the bible and the puzzle that it presents true seekers is very deep knowledge of God. I keep discovering his signature in obscure places that confirms what I'm reading was from one spirit. The entire book is from him to all of us. It's a call to reach out to humanity and bring you closer to him spiritually. I'm always learning more about him but my path is not your path. All of us have to discover the truth about things that cannot be seen with just our five ordinary senses. There is a hidden element (a key if your will) in play and navigating it alone is darn near impossible without help from the inspired authors helper. Since its is outside of the observable universe and can only be known by reaching out to him for answers or seeing his work in action through the prophets, his son, the body of true believers and their glorifying actions.

The trouble is that many see the bad non-glorifying actions of people that claim to be this or that religion and then lose faith that he even exists. When organized religion has you killing others in the name of God in the old testament there is a hard reality for modern day folks to come to grips with because God did and does judge people in that time period. God will not force you to believe in him by appearing before just because you demand proof. He will not force you to believe by placing a sword to your neck and making you choose between believing or instant death. Just as Adam and Eve did not die instantly, you will have your period of grace to find your way to him before physical death.

Aziz and many Muslims see the people of the west and focus on those that bare bad fruit. This is a sad truth and state of affairs that seems overwhelmingly evil. The last several years has been especially lacking in goodness in favor of hate and political division. We need God's word more than ever right now.

I don't have that problem with evil because, God is not and will not ask you or any religion to kill others in his name after the time period of Jesus' ministry and fulfillment of the holy scriptures. By their fruits, you will know them. After the work of Jesus, there is only transformation of hearts of believers to follow his commands willingly and in the spirit or doing the opposite and using religion as an excuse to do evil works. Some partially exhibit the fruits, some do not at (they believe intellectually in their head), some bare a consistent amount fruit of the spirit, and there are a few that are fully committed. The more believers that are fully committed, the more you will see God's work through the body of Christ shine his light on the world. If you see the persecution of true believers that bare fruit of the spirit, and they are shamed or pay the ultimate price by giving up their life for him, that is what the darkness does. Darkness loves darkness and does not want any light shown on them so it can clearly be seen their evil deeds. In some ways, I think if we're not being persecuted, we aren't shining any light in the world. It is not our light, it is his light that bares witness to him through us.

His light can come from unexpected places. This is just a dramatic movie scene but it is an example of how God can and does reach out to you in the most spectacular fashion.

 

[Isaac]

@Galaxiom , I highly doubt any level of Mike's disdain has matched your own.

But putting quibbling aside, it's not disdain, it's just there is right and wrong, and we'd rather everyone come to have the communication and relationship with God and care, protection, love, peace, joy, power that we have.

I had to tell Doc man this once too:

If you were standing on the street corner and a man lunged at you and sort of made a friendly tackle to put you out of the way of certain death of an oncoming vehicle to save your life......Except, it was thereafter realized no such threat existed he was honestly mistaken, would you huff and puff and turn to the man who thought he was saving you and proclaim how awful they were, and what disdain they must have for you? Of course not.

Your bias against God is preventing you from extending the same charitable viewpoint that you would to anyone else trying to save your life (even if ultimately mistaken), in any context other than this one.

I myself can at least appreciate when Jehovah's Witnesses or Mormons come to my door - Aziz as well - I can appreciate that in their mind, they are trying to save my LIFE. I certainly am not mad at them for trying to do so, even though I believe them mistaken.

To see someone trying to do that for you and somehow contort or twist it into that they are being 'mean' to you really demonstrates the blindedness and bias you have against God-related subjects - you can't even see it for what it is by anyone's standard.

 

[Galaxiom]

it's just there is right and wrong, and we'd rather everyone come to have the communication and relationship with God and care, protection, love, peace, joy, power that we have.

Despite your assumption, your version of "right and wrong" is not universal.

I have no doubt that the brutal genocides conducted by the Hebrews was absolutely wrong but it is held up as a signal of the glory of your imaginary god. I quite rightly have immense disdain for that.

 

[The_Doc_Man]

f you were standing on the street corner and a man lunged at you and sort of made a friendly tackle to put you out of the way of certain death of an oncoming vehicle to save your life......Except, it was thereafter realized no such threat existed he was honestly mistaken, would you huff and puff and turn to the man who thought he was saving you and proclaim how awful they were, and what disdain they must have for you

I don't recall my answer to that hypothetical situation at the time, but here is my answer.

IF the "threat" was clearly visible but incorrectly judged, I would be forgiving and accepting. IF the "threat" was one that no one else could actually see, I would be far less forgiving.

 

[Galaxiom]

IF the "threat" was one that no one else could actually see, I would be far less forgiving.

Under those circumstances I would have the man charged with assault and see to it that the court had him committed for psychiatric treatment.

 

[Isaac]

IF the "threat" was clearly visible but incorrectly judged, I would be forgiving and accepting. IF the "threat" was one that no one else could actually see, I would be far less forgiving.

Right, but that all that shows is a failure to live up to the principle, which ought to be, it was their intention that counted.
Even if a person who was completely insane tried to 'save' my life, I wouldn't disdain him once I realized what the situation was.
Basic ethics in my opinion.

 

[Isaac]

Under those circumstances I would have the man charged with assault and see to it that the court had him committed for psychiatric treatment.

Wow, that's an incredibly mean spirited response. I hope you never come into contact with mentally challenged persons for them to experience such a massive unkindness. Your secular ethics don't seem to be doing you any favors here, that's for sure

 

[Isaac]

IF the "threat" was one that no one else could actually see, I would be far less forgiving.

Okay, so let's keep the analogy in its purest form, and hold your feet to the fire on how you have responded to it.

What if the "threat" was something that over half the rest of Earth's population, also saw? Do you see the problem here..

 

[The_Doc_Man]

Does the population physically see the threat or do they merely know of that threat through hearsay from a source that personally has never directly seen the threat either? The threat you mention is indistinguishable (factually) from a bad dream or a vicious person's made-up warning as a ruse to force specific behavior.

AND I've seen several descriptions of the "Hell" you describe. But ... hint ... the image of Hell that most people offer is derived from Gehenna, the Greek version of Hell. The Pits of Tartarus - where Greek god Hades rules - are the fiery pits of despair. It would be nice if you guys would come up with your own ideas instead of recycling them. One could hope for a little originality.

 

[Isaac]

they merely know of that threat through hearsay from a source that personally has never directly seen the threat either

The latter, but remember stay pure to the analogy. That's not the point. The point is that they really truly believe it. That's the only thing to question. If somebody annoyed me while they believed sincerely that they were trying to save my life should I be allowed to disdain or loathe them? I would say ethically the answer isn't resounding no. Especially if you find that over half the world believes the same thing.
It's not about being correct, or whether or not the person is correct, it's about weather or not they truly full-heartedly believed that they were saving your life.

 

[conception_native_0123]

Gehenna, the Greek version of Hell

as mentioned in the bible. there are a few places I believe where it says "hell and hades" as well.

 

[The_Doc_Man]

It's not about being correct, or whether or not the person is correct, it's about weather or not they truly full-heartedly believed that they were saving your life.

If we are going to be true to the analogy, then after being tackled by someone who hallucinated a totally invisible danger that he nonetheless believed to be real, I would insist on that person being examined for mental defect or abuse of hallucinogenic substances.

People who see things that aren't really there - and act on them - can easily become mass shooters.

as mentioned in the bible. there are a few places I believe where it says "hell and hades" as well.

Actually, I wouldn't be surprised, since the Greek mythos pre-dates the Judeo-Christian mythos. And the "great flood" mythos comes from the time of Gilgamesh, which even pre-dates the Greek mythos.

 

[Galaxiom]

Especially if you find that over half the world believes the same thing.

The only difference between a religion and a cult is popularity, which is not a substitute for veracity.

I don't have a problem with people having a religion. It is just that they should keep it to themselves and stop inflicting their delusions on others.