US Supreme Court Leak (1 Viewer)

[AccessBlaster]

So...where is this at? Has RvW been appealed?

It's a matter of states rights, the Supreme Court might be sending back to the states to decide. We really don't know because it's a breach in security.

They were set to rule in late June early July.

 

[The_Doc_Man]

You have to admit though that is such a weak argument in favor of abortion.

No, I don't have to admit that. It is not weak at all for the women who had no other choice and were permanently sterilized due to infections from a botched procedure. It is not weak at all for the parents whose daughters chose back-alley abortions and died as a result.

You want to know how to slow down the abortion rate? Make the fathers liable and hold their feet to the fire. Put deadbeats in jail, or put them into a debt that cannot be erased by bankruptcy. Hold it over their heads that THEY are equally responsible. As long as men have apparent impunity, the problem will not go away. And we can't forget that it takes two to tango. You want to slow it even more? Assure that there is at least SOME meaningful level sex education so that kids learn what actions lead to those consequences.

But the fact that it's still done doesn't mean it ought to be allowed.

This is actually a mirror microcosm of gun control and several other movements in the USA and around the world. There are forces trying to control and limit other people's lives because they believe that if they succeed, the world will be a better place. Whether we are talking abortion, gun control, the war on drugs, or abolition. Pick your other favorite vices while you are at it.

What gives anyone the right to say that something should not be allowed? Obviously, we want to stop murder, robbery/theft/burglary, assault/abuse/ra**, riots/arson/property damage, ... lots of things that are clearly anti-social and highly disruptive to society. Nobody wants total chaos. However, when we talk about enforcement on these issues, we are blind to a word that is sitting right out there for all to see... FORCE. The center of enforcement is to FORCE people to "properly" behave themselves. The problem is that no two people are alike. (Even identical twins diverge in some ways.) What IS proper behavior?

"Proper behavior" is not uniform within our country. With legal immigration, we let in people who come from cultures which accept honor killings, females as chattel, live animal sacrifice, use of psycho-active substances as part of a religious ritual. The list goes on, and we have that pesky little amendment that forbids discrimination based on national origin among other causes. So how do we justify that they can't do here what they used to do - with honor - in their former culture?

Unfortunately, we have too many people with a social agenda who try to take away from others that to which they object. We tried to stop people from imbibing alcohol, the "Prohibition" amendment. Took us only 3 years to decide that was officially a big mistake and repeal that foolish idea. Can't stop smokers either. We try, we do our best to educate, but doesn't stop everyone. The war on drugs is failing miserably. Gun control won't work for people who don't give a hoot about gun laws anyway. Human trafficking (slavery and/or prostitution) is another practice that is older than dirt. Make abortions a criminal act? Won't stop something that has been around for over 2000 years. Actually, based on some older writings from Egypt, older than that by 1500 more years... so at least 3500 years of abortions. And we don't know if they are even older, but the writings farther back than that have decayed by now.

Moan and groan all you want, these problems will not go away. This is all about the question, "Am I my brother's keeper?" And in the USA, the answer should be a resounding "NO." We cannot control people. We cannot put a leash on them and make them prance around like pampered pets. Doesn't work that way at all.

You want to stop all of those terrible things? Don't drop your tax dollars down a bottomless "enforcement" pit. Spend money on better education for young kids so that they will KNOW the perils of these temptations. Reduce the acceptability of home schooling so that kids get a better view of reality than a "mommy and daddy ideal world." Maybe that won't completely stop things either, but if it reduces the frequency of occurrence of these undesirable things, maybe we can get it down to a level where the law of diminishing returns will reach an equilibrium point.

Human nature is one that seeks freedom. ("We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all Men are endowed ... life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness." Remember that one?) Forcing people to fit in someone else's mold is doomed to failure before you start. So instead of making something illegal, how about addressing the problem in a different way that would help reduce its frequency down to the "whoops" level, where the "fringe cases" are few enough to be recognized as simple "whoops" exceptions?

Here is a mental image for you that comes from a commercial from a few years ago. Getting people to go in a specific direction is a really hard process - like herding cats. Good luck with that.

 

[NauticalGent]

It's a matter of states rights

Agreed, this should have NEVER been a Federal issue. So now we wait... I avoid al the lame-stream news channels so I rely on yous guys to keep me informed.

 

[AccessBlaster]

Agreed, this should have NEVER been a Federal issue.

 

[moke123]

 

[The_Doc_Man]

Ah, George Carlin had such a clear viewpoint. Thank you, @moke123, for reminding everyone of the hypocrisy of the anti-abortion movement.

 

[Isaac]

No, I don't have to admit that. It is not weak at all for the women who had no other choice and were permanently sterilized due to infections from a botched procedure. It is not weak at all for the parents whose daughters chose back-alley abortions and died as a result.

You want to know how to slow down the abortion rate? Make the fathers liable and hold their feet to the fire. Put deadbeats in jail, or put them into a debt that cannot be erased by bankruptcy. Hold it over their heads that THEY are equally responsible. As long as men have apparent impunity, the problem will not go away. And we can't forget that it takes two to tango. You want to slow it even more? Assure that there is at least SOME meaningful level sex education so that kids learn what actions lead to those consequences.



This is actually a mirror microcosm of gun control and several other movements in the USA and around the world. There are forces trying to control and limit other people's lives because they believe that if they succeed, the world will be a better place. Whether we are talking abortion, gun control, the war on drugs, or abolition. Pick your other favorite vices while you are at it.

What gives anyone the right to say that something should not be allowed? Obviously, we want to stop murder, robbery/theft/burglary, assault/abuse/ra**, riots/arson/property damage, ... lots of things that are clearly anti-social and highly disruptive to society. Nobody wants total chaos. However, when we talk about enforcement on these issues, we are blind to a word that is sitting right out there for all to see... FORCE. The center of enforcement is to FORCE people to "properly" behave themselves. The problem is that no two people are alike. (Even identical twins diverge in some ways.) What IS proper behavior?

"Proper behavior" is not uniform within our country. With legal immigration, we let in people who come from cultures which accept honor killings, females as chattel, live animal sacrifice, use of psycho-active substances as part of a religious ritual. The list goes on, and we have that pesky little amendment that forbids discrimination based on national origin among other causes. So how do we justify that they can't do here what they used to do - with honor - in their former culture?

Unfortunately, we have too many people with a social agenda who try to take away from others that to which they object. We tried to stop people from imbibing alcohol, the "Prohibition" amendment. Took us only 3 years to decide that was officially a big mistake and repeal that foolish idea. Can't stop smokers either. We try, we do our best to educate, but doesn't stop everyone. The war on drugs is failing miserably. Gun control won't work for people who don't give a hoot about gun laws anyway. Human trafficking (slavery and/or prostitution) is another practice that is older than dirt. Make abortions a criminal act? Won't stop something that has been around for over 2000 years. Actually, based on some older writings from Egypt, older than that by 1500 more years... so at least 3500 years of abortions. And we don't know if they are even older, but the writings farther back than that have decayed by now.

Moan and groan all you want, these problems will not go away. This is all about the question, "Am I my brother's keeper?" And in the USA, the answer should be a resounding "NO." We cannot control people. We cannot put a leash on them and make them prance around like pampered pets. Doesn't work that way at all.

You want to stop all of those terrible things? Don't drop your tax dollars down a bottomless "enforcement" pit. Spend money on better education for young kids so that they will KNOW the perils of these temptations. Reduce the acceptability of home schooling so that kids get a better view of reality than a "mommy and daddy ideal world." Maybe that won't completely stop things either, but if it reduces the frequency of occurrence of these undesirable things, maybe we can get it down to a level where the law of diminishing returns will reach an equilibrium point.

Human nature is one that seeks freedom. ("We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all Men are endowed ... life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness." Remember that one?) Forcing people to fit in someone else's mold is doomed to failure before you start. So instead of making something illegal, how about addressing the problem in a different way that would help reduce its frequency down to the "whoops" level, where the "fringe cases" are few enough to be recognized as simple "whoops" exceptions?

Here is a mental image for you that comes from a commercial from a few years ago. Getting people to go in a specific direction is a really hard process - like herding cats. Good luck with that.

But you yourself just stated all the reasons why the arguments fall on their face. 50 years of the most aggressive sex education that anyone could dream of under liberals, and they still cannot seem to figure out what makes babies! They are talking about how they'll just have no choice but to have tons of pregnancies and babies now -- they just can't help themselves!
It's funny to me, because what you ought to expect after 50 years of the most thorough and detailed sex education ever, would be that everyone would pretty easily understand what the alternative route here is. It's called contraception, marriage, sexual responsibility.

But decades of grossly thorough sex education that the liberals wanted seems to have accomplished absolutely nothing, since they don't seem to have taught their kids to grow up to be responsible people in the first place, otherwise this seemingly very confusing question of how to avoid unwanted pregnancies wouldn't be so darn confusing.

Teach your kids to be sexually responsible, marriage-minded people instead of sex-crazed maniacs and the problem kind of disappears doesn't it?

The truth is everybody knows what the answer to unwanted pregnancies is. Contraception and/or marriage. A little effort, a little character and morals, and a bit of planning. It's really not that complicated! Isn't it interesting that only liberals are freaking out that this will affect their youngsters? Why aren't the conservatives freaking out about the same thing? The answer lies in what I just said.

And how in the world would holding fathers feet financially to the fire cause fewer abortions? That would actually cause more.

It's a good issue to just let States decide. Because people have a lot of different ideas and views on this issue and it might as well be something where the localities can express their group conscience.

And yes, it's an incredibly weak argument to say that we can't ban abortion because there will be some women who simply cannot help themselves and go slice themselves open with a knife. That's ridiculous. Whether or not it ought to be allowed or ought to not be allowed has absolutely nothing to do with the danger that will be under gone by people who choose to violate the law and mutilate themselves. Absolutely nothing.

It is too bad that people buy dangerous drugs with unknown substances in them from the people who live in the tents behind downtown too, but methamphetamine still needs to be illegal.

Okay fine, you don't have to admit that, it just looks awfully silly not to. What dangerous things people will do to get around the law is totally unrelated to the merits of the law that prohibits something for other reasons.

 

[Isaac]

So instead of making something illegal, how about addressing the problem in a different way that would help reduce its frequency down to the "whoops" level, where the "fringe cases" are few enough to be recognized as simple "whoops" exceptions?

If you read my recent post, you'll see that what I am suggesting is actually a little bit like that only I'm combining both. Make it illegal and also unneeded. But that's exactly what conservatives have already taught their children in the first place, that's why this doesn't freak them out.

Yes it's too bad that some people find themselves in an unexpectedly scary place. We all felt that way when we realized we hadn't put too much thought into the thing that was going to make us parents, and we suddenly became parents. That's life it's happened to everybody. Fortunately I was married when it happens as everyone ought to be.

There's a bumper sticker that says a lack of planning on your part does not constitute an emergency on my part.

I have a feeling that that's what the baby who has the scissors stabbed into its head until it's dead while it wiggles around in pain would probably tell your George Carlin. Perhaps that needs to be part of the education you so admire.

 

[The_Doc_Man]

We could go around this mulberry bush forever. Let's face it - people are people. They do what they damned well please. Education helps only to a point. Enforcement helps only to a point. Those points do not meet in the middle. Because in the final analysis, you can't enforce "moral" behavior in a society with multiple national origins, multiple religions, multiple sets of life experiences. The problem is that the ingredients in the "melting pot of society" have started to separate and now the cooks are upset. In a melting pot society, uniformity of morality is nearly impossible.

There is no solution to any of this that does not violate someone's beliefs. It's a shame that there is such division on the topic, but heck, that has recently become a common denominator in all of USA's politics. People are tired of compromise. It happened 180 years ago. The aftermath was decades of suffering, seething hatred. I do not advocate anything - but I fear that January 6th was only the tip of the iceberg.

 

[Isaac]

In a melting pot society, uniformity of morality is nearly impossible

hence the STATES, such as choose their own definition of any other murder statute, or do without entirely if they saw fit.

 

[NauticalGent]

In the vein of George Carlin's skit (which is overall incorrect IMHO and uses BROAD strokes), I do find it amusing that those who want to cling onto the States' Rights concept and the strict adherence to the Constitution in the case of abortion, turn a blind eye to the illegal conflicts the US has been involved with over the past decade.

Those who are lamenting over the possibility of RvW being overturned should really be excited about this. Their vote at a State level will carry a LOT more weight and it will be easier to influence their state's congress then the Federal.

I have my own ideas about abortion and they do not completely align with everyone I know. My mother in law says there is no situation to justify it while my niece defends it whole-heartedly. No matter where you fall on the spectrum, it is far easier to find a lawmaker locally who aligns as closely with your beliefs and influence them to vote your way - and if they don't, again, getting rid of them is easier than their federal counterparts.

 

[NauticalGent]

January 6th was only the tip of the iceberg.

I am hearing that the 9 justices are receiving death threats and protests outside their homes. My source is some quasi-conservative FB friend, so there ya go...

 

[The_Doc_Man]

Abortion really isn't a STATES' RIGHTS issue either - or shouldn't be. It SHOULD a WOMEN'S rights issue. At least, it ought to be that way unless that article recently posted by Uncle Gizmo becomes a more commonplace reality - where a surgeon wants to transplant a womb into a "transitioned" woman after which the woman would get pregnant by IVF.

If it became a "true" Women's Right issue, then no man in a legislature should be allowed to do anything but abstain. If that were the case, then a lot of these virulent anti-abortion laws would never have been enacted due to lack of a quorum.

I wish I was making up that article about "womb transplants" but I wasn't. Look for Uncle Gizmo's recent posts. You'll find it somewhere.

 

[moke123]

if it became a "true" Women's Right issue, then no man in a legislature should be allowed to do anything but abstain. If that were the case, then a lot of these virulent anti-abortion laws would never have been enacted due to lack of a quorum.

 

[NauticalGent]

Abortion really isn't a STATES' RIGHTS issue either - or shouldn't be.

Disagree. Our constitution (10th amendment) specially states: "The powers not delegated to the United States by the Constitution, nor prohibited by it to the States, are reserved to the States respectively, or to the people."

Right, wrong or whatever, if you want the Feds ruling on this or any other issue, do it the right way.

 

[AccessBlaster]

I Love George Carlin he's an equal opportunity offender, I wish I had half of his wit. Would that make me a halfwit?

 

[moke123]

But decades of grossly thorough sex education that the liberals wanted seems to have accomplished absolutely nothing, since they don't seem to have taught their kids to grow up to be responsible people in the first place, otherwise this seemingly very confusing question of how to avoid unwanted pregnancies wouldn't be so darn confusing.

They? So children of conservatives don't do irresponsible things? Why do you think it's just kids? More than a third are woman older that 30.
One could argue that getting an abortion is the responsible thing to do when one is not in a position to care for or raise a child.

Reported Legal Abortions by Age Group Within the State of Occurrence | KFF

www.kff.org

And for the UK crowd

Abortion and Age: When Do Women Have Abortions? | 132 Healthwise

Abortion and Age: When Do Women Have Abortions?

www.132healthwise.com

The truth is everybody knows what the answer to unwanted pregnancies is. Contraception and/or marriage. A little effort, a little character and morals, and a bit of planning. It's really not that complicated! Isn't it interesting that only liberals are freaking out that this will affect their youngsters? Why aren't the conservatives freaking out about the same thing? The answer lies in what I just said.

So contraception is 100% effective? Better retake that sex ed class. Married people, including some conservatives, also get abortions so I dont think marraige is a solution either. Conservatives have been freaking out about the subject for the past 50 years.

I find it ironic that those screaming "My freedom!" over a mandate to wear a piece of cloth over their mouth have no problem mandating a ra** victim to give birth.

 

[NauticalGent]

find it ironic that those screaming "My freedom!" over a mandate to wear a piece of cloth over their mouth have no problem mandating a ra** victim to give birth.

Exactly, and the obverse: The same folks clinging to "My body, my choice" want to mob the people who want to use the same logic by refusing to wear a mask.

Nukin' Futs...

 

[moke123]

"My boy, my choice"

Hope thats a typo.

 

[NauticalGent]

Hope thats a typo.

Edited!