What do Americans make of this? (1 Viewer)

[Brianwarnock]

I offer this without comment for the moment, but I am interested in what Americans think.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/31989874

Brian

 

[Libre]

My reaction:
The pledge is a stupid, meaningless chant in the first place.
If it were said with an understanding of what the words actually mean, that would be one thing. We learned the pledge by rote. I never even understood it for years.
All that being said, to react in a negative way to a language that's thousands of years old and spoken by millions, or ANY language for that matter, is so idiotic and asinine that it makes me cringe with embarrassment that I come from the same country as these bigots.
And the school did not have to apologize.
The apology should come from the idiots that think that Arabic is a bad language.
Morons.
Nincompoops.
That's what I think.

 

[plog]

I think that is the pefect example of America now. For a few reasons:

First and foremost, the fact that America has a 'Pledge of Alliagence'. Those individual words that compose that term seem so communist together--you are vowing to be loyal to the state no matter what. Forcing our kids to chant a statement about being loyal to mother America seems like such a thing we would be all high and mighty about if we heard China did it to their 6 year olds.

Second, it makes perfect sense this is New York-Liberal wussies. They are liberal enough to have it done in Arabic (which would never happen in Kansas/Oklahoma/Texas/Middle America). However, because they are such liberal wussies they go on to apologize for possibly offending someone. A Kansas/Oklahoma/Texas/Middle America school would never apologized for forcing kids to recite the Lord's Prayer.

We are a bunch of hypocritical wussies who have an idealized version of our country that doesn't match the actuality of it. We get righteous at the smallest thing and force others to apologize for nothing and worst of all, we always do apologize no matter how transparent and empty that apology is.

Edit--weird, I hadnt's seen Libre's post when I submitted mine. Weird we used same terms to describe the pledge.

 

[Libre]

Plog
It may seem to you that we said the same thing - but I don't think that the main problem is the pledge of allegiance or that New Yorkers are "liberal wussies" (though we may be).
And the main problem is not that the school apologized (although I disagree with the apology).
No, the main problem, as I see it, is that anyone would think it's wrong to translate the (admittedly stupid and cringeworthy) pledge into Arabic. Why not Arabic?

 

[Frothingslosh]

There is absolutely no reason the school should have had to apologize for it being said in Arabic. The people freaking out about the word 'Allah' are especially bad, as the word is quite literally Arabic for 'God'. It's not a separate name. That is like screaming that Catholics aren't Christian because they worship Deus.

The school would not have had to apologize had the pledge been in Chinese, Spanish, Russian, or Swahili; it is only because of the massive spread of Islamophobia in the US since 9/11 that this is even an issue for anyone beyond the 'Durr we speeks Englush heer' crowd.

 

[plog]

Libre, my main point was my last paragraph. Also when I used "liberal wussies", the derogatory portion of that was the "wussies", not liberal. I think its horrible that "liberal" is starting to have a bad connotation in some circles as is "conservative" in others.

As to your main problem, I hate to semantically split hairs, but while I agree with you about those people being idiots, I think its great that they can get their panties in a bunch over such a thing. That's what America should be. I think the bigger issue is the other side capitulating and issuing an empty, forced apology just to placate those idiots.

 

[Bladerunner]

My reaction:
The pledge is a stupid, meaningless chant in the first place.
If it were said with an understanding of what the words actually mean, that would be one thing. We learned the pledge by rote. I never even understood it for years.
All that being said, to react in a negative way to a language that's thousands of years old and spoken by millions, or ANY language for that matter, is so idiotic and asinine that it makes me cringe with embarrassment that I come from the same country as these bigots.
And the school did not have to apologize.
The apology should come from the idiots that think that Arabic is a bad language.
Morons.
Nincompoops.


That's what I think.

I guess everybody has their own opinion and here in the USA it is coveted. Personally, I am not really sure what went on. If the school recited the pledge in Arabic then they should have apologized. They are American, on American soil, and we speak the English/American Language. Having said that, if a student or any individual wants to recite it in Arabic, it is fine with me. I guess to me it is territorial.

To you Libre, I am not really surprised by your reaction???????? If you don't like the pledge and believe it is bad for America, then Please be courteous to the rest of us, pack your bags and leave America to those who care about her.!

Blade

 

[Libre]

I guess everybody has their own opinion and here in the USA it is coveted. Personally, I am not really sure what went on. If the school recited the pledge in Arabic then they should have apologized. They are American, on American soil, and we speak the English/American Language. Having said that, if a student or any individual wants to recite it in Arabic, it is fine with me. I guess to me it is territorial.

To you Libre, I am not really surprised by your reaction???????? If you don't like the pledge and believe it is bad for America, then Please be courteous to the rest of us, pack your bags and leave America to those who care about her.!

Blade

Oh, I see!
If I don't agree with you about the necessity for parroting a chant without any true understanding of what the person is vowing, AND in the
specific language that you think should be mandatory, then I should just get otta here and go someplace else.
Great. Now that attitude is REAL American.
The kind we could all do without.
You know Blade, your reaction doesn't surprise me either.

 

[MarkK]

If you don't like the pledge and believe it is bad for America, then Please be courteous to the rest of us, pack your bags and leave America to those who care about her.

Yeah, because in America, there is no room for debate, or discussion, or the development of new ideas. There is the American way, godammit, right or wong, who cares, but it's America!!! And you are free to be, ..., American. Only. But free. And American, but in agreement, so free to agree. Or else, pack your bags and take your Un-American-ness, which you are not free to have, with you, goddamit.

Brilliant.

 

[plog]

Location: Tennessee, USA

In the spirit of being an apologizing wuss, I would like to apologize for not explicitly including Tennessee in my initial lists of great states:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scopes_Trial

 

[Bladerunner]

Yeah, because in America, there is no room for debate, or discussion, or the development of new ideas. There is the American way, godammit, right or wong, who cares, but it's America!!! And you are free to be, ..., American. Only. But free. And American, but in agreement, so free to agree. Or else, pack your bags and take your Un-American-ness, which you are not free to have, with you, goddamit.

Brilliant.

As far as I am concerned, the trashing of the "Pledge of Allegence" is next to burning the American Flag. It is as simple as that. Sorry you don't agree? As far a asking Libre to leave the country if he really felt that way, well that was my opinion. but then again they are like bungholes, everyone has one.

Blade

 

[Dick7Access]

As far as I am concerned, the trashing of the "Pledge of Allegence" is next to burning the American Flag. It is as simple as that. Sorry you don't agree? As far a asking Libre to leave the country if he really felt that way, well that was my opinion. but then again they are like bungholes, everyone has one.

Blade

Does anybody really think I would disagree with Blade on this?

 

[MarkK]

I think a "pack up and leave" sentiment is in direct conflict with that expressed by "land of the free." I think the ignorance and intolerance that underpins a "pack up and leave" attitude is a greater harm than any critique of a national institution.

 

[Brianwarnock]

Thank you all for responding I didn't know if you would think " what's it got to do with him a Brit".

I also did not expect to start a civil war.

After reading the differences of opinion I decided I needed some education and read the history of the pledge, I see that it's recitation has caused not only controversy but legal challenges, especially since the words "under God" were added in 1954.
When I read the pledge I thought that those words were contrary to your constitution, and sure enough that has been the basis of the challenges, however your country and it's legal set up is so complex that the religious people seem to have the upper hand at the moment although some challenges to reciting it have been successful.

Brian

 

[Brianwarnock]

I guess everybody has their own opinion and here in the USA it is coveted. Personally, I am not really sure what went on. If the school recited the pledge in Arabic then they should have apologized. They are American, on American soil, and we speak the English/American Language. Having said that, if a student or any individual wants to recite it in Arabic, it is fine with me. I guess to me it is territorial.

Blade

A number of points

A different language was to be spoken on each day for a week.

It was a Wednesday when one student spoke in Arabic.

I wonder what languages had been spoken before.

It was Jewish parents and people who had lost family in Afghanistan , quite why the latter when Arabic is not the language of Afghanistan I don't know, ignorance?

The USA does not have an official language.

Brian

 

[Libre]

Especially to, but not only, to Bladerunner-
I have a general distaste for the worship of symbols, and an even greater distaste of any institution requiring people to make a promise to them - and an empty promise at that. They're only words - and as Brian has pointed out, not without legal challenges. When I made my wedding vows, I knew what I was promising, and I made the promise under my own volition. It means something. When you take a bunch of schoolchildren, some of whom don't even speak English, and say, "REPEAT AFTER ME" and don't explain to them what it means, and you teach them to put their hands over their hearts and recite the pledge every day, what are you accomplishing? Your only goal in doing such a thing must be to create a body of mindless automatons. And it's not as if that they will all remain faithful to the USA because, after all, they recited the pledge!
So you're doing nothing except discouraging discourse and critical thinking, which in my mind, education is all about. But to others, education is about getting people to just accept and memorize the "facts" that their teachers tell them, without any thought or dissent or challenges because facts are facts. So Blade, I can see why requiring children to pledge must suit you very nicely.
As to the LANGUAGE that it is spoken in, well gee, we wouldn't want the ceremony of reciting the pledge to actually be a learning experience, so you can hear the same words in different languages and gain a little familiarity with those languages. HELL NO! Because as we said, this has always been and must remain a ritual designed to produce mindless drones.
And talking about the different languages - as Brian also pointed out, and as you (Bladerunner) well know, the USA has NO "official" language. We're a multi-cultural society (that scares you, I know), with citizens of every race, creed, color AND language, and with a constitution that guarantees equal rights for all of them. But according to you, if you see anything wrong in demanding this meaningless promise from clueless and impressionable children, AND not only that but in good ole "American English", then that person should just blow outa town and leave the "rest of you" (as you put it), alone.
You have a lot of nerve to say that, Blade. Maybe you don't even realize how hypocritical it is to demand somebody leave the country when they do the very thing that is guaranteed by the constitution and that the pledge and the anthem and the flag and all these symbols represent.
No, I'm not leaving.
If you don't actually value what the flag stands for - which is the liberty to speak your mind and the freedom to question authority, why don't YOU - and the rest of YOU - get the hell out?

 

[Frothingslosh]

Brian,

Actually, at the start, the district courts all ruled that the amended Pledge was unconstitutional and a direct violation of the First Amendment, but SCOTUS always carefully avoided ruling on that - always ruling on some other issue instead, with the result of the cases being thrown out. It's only with the rise of the Religious Reich since the late 80's/early 90's that courts have consistently ruled that 'under God' is not religious.

Mark K,

The far right has long since stopped caring about freedom. Back when Bush II was screaming that we needed to invade Iraq because Saddam was involved in 9/11 (then it was other terrorism, then it was WMD's, then it was 'Saddam is a Bad Guy'), any form of dissent against the Right resulted in spittle-flecked rants that disagreement with POTUS is treasonous and that any un-American traitor who dared to disagree with the idea of invading Iraq needed to get out and move to the Middle-East with the rest of the America-haters. I encountered that in the newspapers, on television, on the radio, and in-person. They have long since decided that they are the only 'true Americans', and those who don't lace up their jackboots and start goose-stepping to their beat are traitors and anti-American.

 

[Bladerunner]

I think a "pack up and leave" sentiment is in direct conflict with that expressed by "land of the free." I think the ignorance and intolerance that underpins a "pack up and leave" attitude is a greater harm than any critique of a national institution.

First off Mark, I did not demand that Libre leave the country, I said this "If you don't like the pledge and believe it is bad for America, then Please be courteous to the rest of us, pack your bags and leave America to those who care about her.! "

Whats next the flag...We already see it is not flown in one of the eastern liberal colleges. We don't want to hurt someones feeeeeeeeeelings.DO we.! Make them fell "Uncommmmmmmmfortable. So I guess we just have to fly the flag only certain days of the week,,,Hell we might even be able to have flag of different colors/countries to fly the other days. Maybe, the illegal immigrants flag....maybe some from the Middle East (except Israels for sure)....etc. .........Hummmmmmm.

I grew up with the pledge of allegiance. we would everyday, turn to the FLAG and recite the pledge. "I pledge allegiance to the Flag of the United States of America and to the Republic for which it stands, one nation under GOD, indivisible, with liberty and justice for all.". I love that flag and would even now give my life for 'her'. Can the Atheist say that, I doubt it, so the far left liberal/atheist of this country have to be taken care of and protected by those of us who do believe in this country, the pledge of Allegiance and the Flag. I will not to apologize for anything I have said concerning this subject. Live with It!

I suspect that the 'Under God' part is a big sticking point for the Atheist! What to you think?

Blade.

 

[Bladerunner]

A number of points

A different language was to be spoken on each day for a week.

It was a Wednesday when one student spoke in Arabic.

I wonder what languages had been spoken before.

It was Jewish parents and people who had lost family in Afghanistan , quite why the latter when Arabic is not the language of Afghanistan I don't know, ignorance?

The USA does not have an official language.

Brian

If the USA has no official language, then why must every body coming to America learn English in order to become a citizen???????/

 

[Brianwarnock]

If the USA has no official language, then why must every body coming to America learn English in order to become a citizen???????/

Because English is the language of official business e.g. Legislation , regulation, and thus it is important that citizens have a sufficient grasp of the language.

Brian