Are you an atheist? (3 Viewers)

[Bladerunner]

I hope these characters will let me post this reply?

Glad you like the title. I took it after being accused (in another thread on this very forum) of being a traitor because I favor background checks for weapon purchases, giving women control of their own bodies, and not punishing gay people for the crime of being born. (Edit: Oh, and for stating that it was idiotic to choose to die rather than let a mugger have your wallet.)

I probably had something to do with that but as a rehash. I agree with background checks for weapon purchases?!,,,,,Giving women control of their own bodies as long as they don't kill another human being in the process!!! As far as the gays are concerned, I not sure where the 'punishing ' part comes from.

I'm not sure what bringing Islam (which doesn't accept the doctrine of original sin) into the discussion has to do with anything other than showing your credentials as yet another Islamaphobe. But to balance, we have the Inquisition burning to death anyone who didn't profess precisely what the Catholic church espoused (along with anyone whose possessions various clergy and nobles desired), the Holocaust, the Kill the Gays bill, many, many assaults on Jerusalem in the Crusades, the Yugoslavian Civil War, the Vatican spreading rumors in Africa that condoms cause AIDS, and the list of atrocities by Christians goes on.

Islamaphobe: Hall yes,, and your not?! Why Not?,,,,, they want to kill you too! er that is if you are not Muslim. "The Kill the Gays BILL"???????have not heard about that one.

In the real world, the refusal of the idiotic "Sin was impossible until Eve sinned" doctrine (a wonderful example of circular logic) means that responsibility for your own actions rests on YOU, not some mythological ancient ancestor. That doesn't make things like anything listed above 'ok' - it means that the evil men and women choose to do is their own damn fault. It means you need to take responsibility for your own choices, not say 'but a vile, disgusting, evil woman thousands of years ago MADE me do bad things!'

It's really not a difficult concept.

"Sin was impossible until Eve sinned" the bible states this? Yes and when Jesus died on Cross, he washed away those sins. Now like you say it is everybody unto himself... Up until she (EVE) ate the forbidden fruit, they (Adam) were without sin. Also because of this, the Garden of Eden was taken away from them and anyone else. But that was then, so we have to live with the fact that we are not sin free that is because of EVE.

Edit:

You know, I was thinking about this discussion while waiting for a report to run, and I'm curious. Just how precisely did you take 'I don't believe the entire human race is damned by default because Eve ate an apple' and get from it 'Obviously I think that because we're not doomed by Eve's choice of knowledge over ignorance, it follows that every act, no matter how evil, vile, or malicious, is perfectly acceptable.'? In other circles, that's what one might call Insane Troll Logic.

 

[Bladerunner]

Yeah, I placed all within a box and it cannot count them there. No Problem,,, will start making comments outside of the boxes.

 

[Brianwarnock]

Yeah, I placed all within a box and it cannot count them there. No Problem,,, will start making comments outside of the boxes.

I have to work at finding where the quotes end and your comments start.

Brian

 

[Brianwarnock]

Please read Holly Quran message from our creator God through Muhammad Peace be upon him. I have some questions that can you see air, voice, signals, electricity and etc but you believe in these things. ..Thanks

But we can prove that these things exist, or did you not do physics at school?

Brian

 

[Frothingslosh]

"Sin was impossible until Eve sinned" the bible states this? Yes and when Jesus died on Cross, he washed away those sins. Now like you say it is everybody unto himself... Up until she (EVE) ate the forbidden fruit, they (Adam) were without sin. Also because of this, the Garden of Eden was taken away from them and anyone else. But that was then, so we have to live with the fact that we are not sin free that is because of EVE.

To tighten the above up:

"Yes, sin was impossible until a woman sinned. Now we simply have to accept that all of our faults and the reason we don't live in paradise are both entirely because of women."

Translation: "I will not accept that I am responsible for any evil I do because WOMEN."

Also, painting all Muslims as evil because of the actions of Islamic extremists is just as idiotic as painting all Christians as evil because of the actions of the Westboro Baptist Church and the folks who tortured Matthew Shepard to death. When you get right down to it, the history of Europe and European colonialism is nothing but greed, violence, hate, intolerence, and bloodshed on an unimaginable scale, largely for religious reasons. If you go by your own logic ("some muslims kill people, so they're all evil!"), that means that Christianity must be the greatest threat ever to have faced humanity.

Even if we accept the 'official' stance that original sin existed but was wiped away by the crucifixion, we're left staring at the fact that we are STILL responsible for our own actions, regardless of whether we are to be held to blame for the actions of a single woman thousands of years ago. The world doesn't make people do evil. A distant, likley mythical 'anscestor' doesn't make you do evil. YOU make you do evil.

2 Corinthians 5:10:

For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ, so that each one may receive what is due for what he has done in the body, whether good or evil.

Also, directly bearing on 'We are sinners because EVE!!!one!11!ONE!':
Ezekial 18:20

The soul who sins shall die. The son shall not suffer for the iniquity of the father, nor the father suffer for the iniquity of the son. The righteousness of the righteous shall be upon himself, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon himself.

 

[Frothingslosh]

But we can prove that these things exist, or did you not do physics at school?

Brian

Judging by the way his post was written, I would guess not.

 

[dan-cat]

In reality, if you do not believe it is 'no skin off my nose'.

I wonder, do you see any irony in this statement?

 

[Bladerunner]

:"Yes, sin was impossible until a woman sinned. Now we simply have to accept that all of our faults and the reason we don't live in paradise are both entirely because of women."
Translation: "I will not accept that I am responsible for any evil I do because WOMEN."

Not WomEn---one Woman---and of course Satan.

Also, painting all Muslims as evil because of the actions of Islamic extremists is just as idiotic as painting all Christians as evil because of the actions of the Westboro Baptist Church and the folks who tortured Matthew Shepard to death. When you get right down to it, the history of Europe and European colonialism is nothing but greed, violence, hate, intolerence, and bloodshed on an unimaginable scale, largely for religious reasons. If you go by your own logic ("some muslims kill people, so they're all evil!"), that means that Christianity must be the greatest threat ever to have faced humanity

You obviously have not read the Koran or any of the other two books of Islam. It is not only a religion, it is a government and a social mediator (so to speak). To be short it is not a peaceful religion. If you are not a Muslim, you must convert, pay taxes as slaves or DIE! Now having said that, I do not believe that all Muslims are extremist however, when the new Caliphate is erected, I believe they will change their minds and follow Mohammed teachings. OH, the teachings of a group of books that were written 600 years after the birth of Christ.

Now where do you see Jesus said anything like that. It is Humans that are causing all of this. It is just easier for you to equate it to Christianity for a fault.

2 Corinthians 5:10:
Quote:
For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ, so that each one may receive what is due for what he has done in the body, whether good or evil.
Also, directly bearing on 'We are sinners because EVE!!!one!11!ONE!':

Yes, we are all capable of sin and Yes you are responsible for your sins. When was the last time you saw a child sin? Eventually they will sin but only after we teach them to sin. Can you imagine a place where everyone is as innocent as a child?

Ezekial 18:20
Quote:
The soul who sins shall die. The son shall not suffer for the iniquity of the father, nor the father suffer for the iniquity of the son. The righteousness of the righteous shall be upon himself, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon himself.

Yes, if the father is a murder, then the son does not have his sin unless he commits murder himself.

Not really sure what your are trying to get at here but Adam & Eve's sin placed upon us all the ability to know sin therefore we have the ability to commit sin.

What you cannot fathom is God created a "Garden of Eden" where there was no sin! When the fruit from the tree of KNOWLEDGE was eaten (By both of them), they were cast out into the cruel, cruel world we now live in some 6,000 -10,000 years later.

 

[Bladerunner]

I wonder, do you see any irony in this statement?

I am from the south,,,, please explain.......

 

[dan-cat]

I am from the south,,,, please explain.......

Is there any way you could see how your statement would feel 'unexpected' to another?

 

[Bladerunner]

Is there any way you could see how your statement would feel 'unexpected' to another?

Boy Howdy: you sure do make it hard on a fellow. I went back and looked everything up. The "Irony of the statement" is that I somewhat preach the word and yet don't care if you are saved? Please feel free to correct if I am wrong.

Well, I do care which is why I keep trying. But lets face it Dan-cat, there are times you can take a horse to water but you cannot make him drink. I have put forth my 100%, now it is your decision which will not affect me or my decision in the end thus ("No Skin off my nose")

 

[Galaxiom]

T. No it's the "Tree of knowledge" that was forbidden. If we were created in God's image why would knowledge be forbidden?

Because knowledge equals power.

The whole point of religion is to move the power away from the person to the religion's oligarchy.

 

[Bladerunner]

The most interesting part about the "Original Sin" to me is: Not that the serpent tempted Eve, or that Eve corrupted Adam. No it's the "Tree of knowledge" that was forbidden. If we were created in God's image why would knowledge be forbidden?

and Satan (the serpent) said unto EVE: For God doth know that in the day ye eat thereof, then your eyes shall be opened, and ye shall be as gods, knowing good and evil.

Genesis 3:5

And the LORD God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever:

Genesis 3:22

This what we are told. Keep in mind that this book and 4 other books were given to Moses.

 

[Brianwarnock]

These last two posts pretty much say the same thing, Galaxiom just a little more directly.

Brian

 

[dan-cat]

Well, I do care which is why I keep trying. But lets face it Dan-cat, there are times you can take a horse to water but you cannot make him drink. I have put forth my 100%, now it is your decision which will not affect me or my decision in the end thus ("No Skin off my nose")

You said you care. From that, how do you feel, despite your best efforts, that a seemingly huge number of people are going to fall short? Does it upset you?

 

[Galaxiom]

there are times you can take a horse to water but you cannot make him drink. I have put forth my 100%,

Blade:

Clearly, from your perspective, there is no question about the existence of your God who gave the rules for mankind to distant ancestors who wrote it down in the Bible.

But I, and no doubt others here, are bewildered by the extent of your commitment to this point of view. Your are apparently unable to comprehend the remotest possibility that the whole basis for your religion, and others quite like it, could be nothing more than the musings of some ancient men?

A philosopher, whose name escapes me, is quoted as encouraging the importance of being able to adopt another perspective without being persuaded. Exploring another perspective provides an opportunity to evaluate one's own beliefs without falling in to the trap of confirmation bias.

Can you honestly tell us if there was ever any time in your whole life where you seriously considered that the whole God thing is an ancient hoax?

 

[Bladerunner]

Because knowledge equals power.

The whole point of religion is to move the power away from the person to the religion's oligarchy.

AT the time of Adam and Eve, there was no religion. Only in later chapters revealed that God adopted the Israelite people as his chosen thus Judaism. Christianity was not around until Jesus sent his apostles to the population.

sorry to bust your bubble

 

[Bladerunner]

Blade:


"Clearly, from your perspective, there is no question about the existence of your God who gave the rules for mankind to distant ancestors who wrote it down in the Bible". PLUS AccessBlaster Post #4123 ;"Or an ancient misinterpretation. The tree of life could have been a form of technology. The apple, tree, serpent merely symbols that we assigned to the event. This could explain why similar themes run though other religions

Well we are at it again. Yes let have a go at it. I will try to answer the first part of your question along with AccessBlaster's Post #4123......OK lets go (ps. have written this one time online and lost it.)

The first cities, states, kingdoms, and organized religions begin to emerge (100th to 34th century BC or 9831 BC)(1). Moses was born in Egypt on the 7th of Adar of the year 2368 from creation (1393 BCE),(2) The first five books of the bible was given (dictated) to Moses during the 2nd Century or about the time of the Jewish Salvery by Egypt. To answer your question Glaxiom, YES!

AccessBlaster, Even scientist cannot agree here. They say that Hinduism is the world's oldest relgion.Believed to have started during 1500-3000 B.C(3)--Religion to the Hindu is the native search for the divine within the Self (3). However organized religion began as far back as 9831 (8). Most if not all of these were Pagan type religions. Catholicism was started about 110AD.(4) and Isalm was written (at least one book of 3) around 600AD (6). Thus Hebrew (Judism) began when God Gave Moses the Laws for the Jewish people to abide by. Did you miss that. The laws were given to his chosen people only and there were no apostles to spread the word of God for another 1200 years. What religions were you talking about? True the tree of knowledge may well have been a technological wonder but we shall never know. I do know that God was mad and did several things to Adam, Eve and the serpent that still stands today. If interested,check out Genesis 3:14-24

But I, and no doubt others here, are bewildered by the extent of your commitment to this point of view. Your are apparently unable to comprehend the remotest possibility that the whole basis for your religion, and others quite like it, could be nothing more than the musings of some ancient men?

Yes Galaxiom it is possible but not probable. "It is generally agreed that true writing of language (not only numbers) was invented independently in at least two places: Mesopotamia (specifically, ancient Sumer) around 3200 BCE and Mesoamerica around 600 BCE. Several Mesoamerican scripts are known, the oldest being from the Olmec or Zapotec of Mexico."(7). How many people of that time could read or write and then how many could be as articulate as the bible is? THis was long before people even thought about whether the world was flat or round.They just wanted to survive. Even Religion was not around to (as you would say it--Taint) the writings. But to answer your question; I have a degree from a University in Medicine which requires numerous science subjects including Physics. Yes, I do comprehend that all science has done so far is to support the writings of the Hebrew and Christian (original writings) religions. Should you want to debate them, let me know but you had better bring you best game.

A philosopher, whose name escapes me, is quoted as encouraging the importance of being able to adopt another perspective without being persuaded. Exploring another perspective provides an opportunity to evaluate one's own beliefs without falling in to the trap of confirmation bias.

To me we are two sides of the same coin. You do not believe in God and believe that our lives(ancestors) began in the primordial ooze and evolved to our present status as dictated by Mother Earth herself. We are within each of us Gods. There is no reason for our lives other that to do what ever we want to do legally within the laws of man and when we die, that is all. We get our morality from this type view and we already see the results of such morality where there is no religious guidance. On the other side of the coin, I do believe that God created ALL things( and I do mean ALL including TIME) . That he made Adam out of the very dirt we return to when we die. I believe we have a soul that will not die in one way or the other. (Heaven or Hell). Yes there is a purpose in our lives and his laws gives us the morality that is not possible by hard coding as some of the others suggest.

As to the coin, you believe in science to prove that your are right and there is no God and I believe that science will prove there is a God!

Can you honestly tell us if there was ever any time in your whole life where you seriously considered that the whole God thing is an ancient hoax?

Everybody's faith is tested in one way or the other. Some turn to God or Jesus for guidance and some turn away from him in their hour of sorrow. I have not had to prove my loyalty like Abraham did with his son. (Genesis 22: 1-14) . The answer to your question is NO I have never thought the "God Thing" was a hoax.

1. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Timeline_of_religion

2. Moses (1393-1273 BCE) - Jewish History - Chabad.org
www.chabad.org/library/article_cdo/aid/73398/jewish/Moses.htm

3. http://www.umich.edu/~aamuhist/smullang/pubspeak.htm

4. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Catholic_Church

5. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Judaism

6. http://www.metmuseum.org/toah/hd/isla/hd_isla.htm

7. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_writing

8.https://www.newtestamentchurch.org/html/Cook/WHYIAMNOTAMEMBEROFANYWORLDLYCHURCH.HTM

 

[Libre]

I'm sure this must have been brought up already, but anyway:
Why would a rational person accept, without any doubt, a wildly improbable-to-impossible tale about the origins of life (and I'm talking about Creationism, not evolution), and about the existence of a fantastically powerful super-being who could create the whole universe, that nobody alive has ever seen?
Yes, in biblical times, miracles were a dime a dozen. Seas parting, water from stones, wine from water, miraculous cures with no explanation other than God's will.
But at least for all of recorded history, there is not one single verifiable instance of a miracle, or of the physical appearance of a diety.
Couldn't God (should He actually exist) settle the question once and for all (or at least once a century) by just popping by every now and then in a public place with plenty of witnesses, and just saying, Hi there, well, I'm God, you know. If you don't believe me, you see that boulder over there? Well, poof. Now it's gone. Okay, carry on. See you next century.
I mean after all, it's a lot to ask of anybody, to believe in this with no evidence, for God's Sake!

 

[Bladerunner]

I'm sure this must have been brought up already, but anyway:
Why would a rational person accept, without any doubt, a wildly improbable-to-impossible tale about the origins of life (and I'm talking about Creationism, not evolution), and about the existence of a fantastically powerful super-being who could create the whole universe, that nobody alive has ever seen?

Why would a rational person accept, that we are within ourselves a God or Darwin's theory which has now been proven to at the very least be tainted or "This all we are and no more" (scientist view)? A entity that gave Moses the 1st five books of the bible which included creation by the day.

Yes, in biblical times, miracles were a dime a dozen. Seas parting, water from stones, wine from water, miraculous cures with no explanation other than God's will.
But at least for all of recorded history, there is not one single verifiable instance of a miracle, or of the physical appearance of a diety.

Excuse me but I thought that is what the bible was. Recorded History. If not then what? Yes, there is not one single verifiable instance of a miracle in modern times. Wonder Why? As far as the appearance of a deity is concerned, I guess the burning bush and other appearances just won't do. Well he sent his son, also the son of man to us. Was that not good enough appearance for a Deity. OH yeah, he was the one who performed a lot of those miracles and died for our sins. Yes, there are other written publications that acknowledge the life of Jesus. He was a real person!

God does not ask much from you. Simply put, 'believe in him'. What do you get out of this bagain? He Loves you! is that not enough?