The Qur'an (2 Viewers)

[Mike Krailo]

You are doing a pretty good job of showing disdain (which is no doubt the word you meant) to those who don't think like you do.

In fact, disdain for those who are different goes right to the foundation of your horrible faith.

You mean like God disdain's for sin and darkness? I don't hate or disdain anyone, including my Muslim friends. All believers are to exercise discernment with fellow believers, it's sometimes not easy to do well but I see that Aziz is missing critical information and needs to know about it. It is unfortunate that tradition and religion have to get in the way of true faith that leads to something far beyond just being a good person. A good person that has God on their side can experience the fullness of God's spirit which leads to life and his spirit can teach you directly so that we can be fully human and operating in a way that glorifies God. A good person that does not know God or a desire to know God, has no hope other than their own selfish desire to put themselves or man above God for the sake of the short time they know they have left. I know you don't believe in his existence, but if he is real (a person), how do you think that makes him feel? And in spite of this, he loves you anyway.

As far as scripture is concerned, the spirit of God is all throughout the bible and the puzzle that it presents true seekers is very deep knowledge of God. I keep discovering his signature in obscure places that confirms what I'm reading was from one spirit. The entire book is from him to all of us. It's a call to reach out to humanity and bring you closer to him spiritually. I'm always learning more about him but my path is not your path. All of us have to discover the truth about things that cannot be seen with just our five ordinary senses. There is a hidden element (a key if your will) in play and navigating it alone is darn near impossible without help from the inspired authors helper. Since its is outside of the observable universe and can only be known by reaching out to him for answers or seeing his work in action through the prophets, his son, the body of true believers and their glorifying actions.

The trouble is that many see the bad non-glorifying actions of people that claim to be this or that religion and then lose faith that he even exists. When organized religion has you killing others in the name of God in the old testament there is a hard reality for modern day folks to come to grips with because God did and does judge people in that time period. God will not force you to believe in him by appearing before just because you demand proof. He will not force you to believe by placing a sword to your neck and making you choose between believing or instant death. Just as Adam and Eve did not die instantly, you will have your period of grace to find your way to him before physical death.

Aziz and many Muslims see the people of the west and focus on those that bare bad fruit. This is a sad truth and state of affairs that seems overwhelmingly evil. The last several years has been especially lacking in goodness in favor of hate and political division. We need God's word more than ever right now.

I don't have that problem with evil because, God is not and will not ask you or any religion to kill others in his name after the time period of Jesus' ministry and fulfillment of the holy scriptures. By their fruits, you will know them. After the work of Jesus, there is only transformation of hearts of believers to follow his commands willingly and in the spirit or doing the opposite and using religion as an excuse to do evil works. Some partially exhibit the fruits, some do not at (they believe intellectually in their head), some bare a consistent amount fruit of the spirit, and there are a few that are fully committed. The more believers that are fully committed, the more you will see God's work through the body of Christ shine his light on the world. If you see the persecution of true believers that bare fruit of the spirit, and they are shamed or pay the ultimate price by giving up their life for him, that is what the darkness does. Darkness loves darkness and does not want any light shown on them so it can clearly be seen their evil deeds. In some ways, I think if we're not being persecuted, we aren't shining any light in the world. It is not our light, it is his light that bares witness to him through us.

His light can come from unexpected places. This is just a dramatic movie scene but it is an example of how God can and does reach out to you in the most spectacular fashion.

 

[Isaac]

@Galaxiom , I highly doubt any level of Mike's disdain has matched your own.

But putting quibbling aside, it's not disdain, it's just there is right and wrong, and we'd rather everyone come to have the communication and relationship with God and care, protection, love, peace, joy, power that we have.

I had to tell Doc man this once too:

If you were standing on the street corner and a man lunged at you and sort of made a friendly tackle to put you out of the way of certain death of an oncoming vehicle to save your life......Except, it was thereafter realized no such threat existed he was honestly mistaken, would you huff and puff and turn to the man who thought he was saving you and proclaim how awful they were, and what disdain they must have for you? Of course not.

Your bias against God is preventing you from extending the same charitable viewpoint that you would to anyone else trying to save your life (even if ultimately mistaken), in any context other than this one.

I myself can at least appreciate when Jehovah's Witnesses or Mormons come to my door - Aziz as well - I can appreciate that in their mind, they are trying to save my LIFE. I certainly am not mad at them for trying to do so, even though I believe them mistaken.

To see someone trying to do that for you and somehow contort or twist it into that they are being 'mean' to you really demonstrates the blindedness and bias you have against God-related subjects - you can't even see it for what it is by anyone's standard.

 

[Galaxiom]

it's just there is right and wrong, and we'd rather everyone come to have the communication and relationship with God and care, protection, love, peace, joy, power that we have.

Despite your assumption, your version of "right and wrong" is not universal.

I have no doubt that the brutal genocides conducted by the Hebrews was absolutely wrong but it is held up as a signal of the glory of your imaginary god. I quite rightly have immense disdain for that.

 

[The_Doc_Man]

f you were standing on the street corner and a man lunged at you and sort of made a friendly tackle to put you out of the way of certain death of an oncoming vehicle to save your life......Except, it was thereafter realized no such threat existed he was honestly mistaken, would you huff and puff and turn to the man who thought he was saving you and proclaim how awful they were, and what disdain they must have for you

I don't recall my answer to that hypothetical situation at the time, but here is my answer.

IF the "threat" was clearly visible but incorrectly judged, I would be forgiving and accepting. IF the "threat" was one that no one else could actually see, I would be far less forgiving.

 

[Galaxiom]

IF the "threat" was one that no one else could actually see, I would be far less forgiving.

Under those circumstances I would have the man charged with assault and see to it that the court had him committed for psychiatric treatment.

 

[Isaac]

IF the "threat" was clearly visible but incorrectly judged, I would be forgiving and accepting. IF the "threat" was one that no one else could actually see, I would be far less forgiving.

Right, but that all that shows is a failure to live up to the principle, which ought to be, it was their intention that counted.
Even if a person who was completely insane tried to 'save' my life, I wouldn't disdain him once I realized what the situation was.
Basic ethics in my opinion.

 

[Isaac]

Under those circumstances I would have the man charged with assault and see to it that the court had him committed for psychiatric treatment.

Wow, that's an incredibly mean spirited response. I hope you never come into contact with mentally challenged persons for them to experience such a massive unkindness. Your secular ethics don't seem to be doing you any favors here, that's for sure

 

[Isaac]

IF the "threat" was one that no one else could actually see, I would be far less forgiving.

Okay, so let's keep the analogy in its purest form, and hold your feet to the fire on how you have responded to it.

What if the "threat" was something that over half the rest of Earth's population, also saw? Do you see the problem here..

 

[The_Doc_Man]

Does the population physically see the threat or do they merely know of that threat through hearsay from a source that personally has never directly seen the threat either? The threat you mention is indistinguishable (factually) from a bad dream or a vicious person's made-up warning as a ruse to force specific behavior.

AND I've seen several descriptions of the "Hell" you describe. But ... hint ... the image of Hell that most people offer is derived from Gehenna, the Greek version of Hell. The Pits of Tartarus - where Greek god Hades rules - are the fiery pits of despair. It would be nice if you guys would come up with your own ideas instead of recycling them. One could hope for a little originality.

 

[Isaac]

they merely know of that threat through hearsay from a source that personally has never directly seen the threat either

The latter, but remember stay pure to the analogy. That's not the point. The point is that they really truly believe it. That's the only thing to question. If somebody annoyed me while they believed sincerely that they were trying to save my life should I be allowed to disdain or loathe them? I would say ethically the answer isn't resounding no. Especially if you find that over half the world believes the same thing.
It's not about being correct, or whether or not the person is correct, it's about weather or not they truly full-heartedly believed that they were saving your life.

 

[conception_native_0123]

Gehenna, the Greek version of Hell

as mentioned in the bible. there are a few places I believe where it says "hell and hades" as well.

 

[The_Doc_Man]

It's not about being correct, or whether or not the person is correct, it's about weather or not they truly full-heartedly believed that they were saving your life.

If we are going to be true to the analogy, then after being tackled by someone who hallucinated a totally invisible danger that he nonetheless believed to be real, I would insist on that person being examined for mental defect or abuse of hallucinogenic substances.

People who see things that aren't really there - and act on them - can easily become mass shooters.

as mentioned in the bible. there are a few places I believe where it says "hell and hades" as well.

Actually, I wouldn't be surprised, since the Greek mythos pre-dates the Judeo-Christian mythos. And the "great flood" mythos comes from the time of Gilgamesh, which even pre-dates the Greek mythos.

 

[Galaxiom]

Especially if you find that over half the world believes the same thing.

The only difference between a religion and a cult is popularity, which is not a substitute for veracity.

I don't have a problem with people having a religion. It is just that they should keep it to themselves and stop inflicting their delusions on others.

 

[conception_native_0123]

It is just that they should keep it to themselves and stop inflicting their delusions on others.

everything is a business galax. life is a business. you have to advertise religion somewhere. if not, then you are not trying to spread the good word. or in Islam's case, the bad word.

 

[Uncle Gizmo]

The claim that God created man in his own image has to be one of the most ridiculous of all.

I think it's a misprint, I think it should be:-

Man created God in his own image....

Once man created God then God became the supreme being and obviously it was God who created man.

Although this is a circular argument, it does have some merit in the sense that to have a functioning human society you do need higher values, which, for some people are represent by a god-like figure....

There must have been one or two genius calibre humans in the past. Few and far between, because the population level was low and the chances of a genius occurring was therefore much less.

It is possible that this "genius" human being would be elevated in the eyes of the other humans as being a God-like person a bit like how we honour our genius level humans these days.

The trouble is, all humans have their faults, and this enables certain parties to be able to attack and devalue the genius.

The solution, create a fictitious genius which is unassailable. GOD....

 

[Mike Krailo]

Many men has sought to be God, but only one God that sought to be man so he could save those he deeply loves from an eternity separated from him.

I came across this quote from a random internet poster Dante-vf4sd that I found very relevant. He actually went through a pretty well thought out provoking logical proof for Christianity and of course for God. If you are interested in the full text of his logical reasoning, just let me know and I'll post it.

 

[ColinEssex]

What's the difference between God and a Consultant Surgeon? . . . . . . . . . . . . . . God doesn't think he's a Consultant Surgeon.
Col

 

[The_Doc_Man]

Another difference is that a Consultant Surgeon doesn't ask you to sacrifice your firstborn.

 

[Isaac]

Well even if God isn't real I'm sure glad for Christianity's positive influence on the world and inspiring it's followers to try to be better people.

Just the evangelicals that disassembled slavery in America is a great start.

 

[aziz rasul]

I think our culture in general has gone way down hill because of the education system has been stripped of God and in it's place we have evolution pushed into their
head.

I went to primary school at a time when we were never taught evolution, instead we were taught (at a nearby Christian protestant school) that

Jesus was the begotten son of God
Jesus died for our sins
That God consisted of three persons as a trinity
etc.

Frankly whether I was taught evolution or the above, in my opinion it would have come to the same thing i.e. FALSE teaching. Even at a very young age when the Christian minister came to the school and told us the above, it never sat right with me. Now that we know that these were not the teachings of Jesus (peace be upon him) or the Bible as a whole, it doesn't surprise me that I found these things unbelieveable. In fact, many things that Christians believe in are the exact opposite of what the Bible teaches.

This is where your lack of info on Jesus' ministry shows that you do not have the spirit in you.

Man is made of body and soul. What spirit are you talking about?

In Islam, we do believe in the Holy Spirit who is mentioned in the Qur'an, but he is referred to as the angel Gabriel who, among other things, was the angel who passed the words of Allaah to some of the Prophets.

97. Say, "Whoever is an enemy to Gabriel - it is [none but] he who has brought the Qur'an down upon your heart, [O Muhammad], by permission of Allaah , confirming that which was before it and as guidance and good tidings for the believers."
98. Whoever is an enemy to Allaah and His angels and His messengers and Gabriel and Michael - then indeed, Allaah is an enemy to the disbelievers.
Qur’an - Surah al-Baqara (The Heifer) 2:97-98

28. When thy Lord said to the angels: I am going to fashion a man (Adam) from clay, from moulded mud;
29. When I have harmoniously fashioned him (in due proportion) and breathed into him of My Spirit (Gabriel), …
Qur’an - Surah al-Hijr (The Rock) 15:28-9

You scoff at miracles that confirm him as the Son of Man as he liked to call himself.

Where did I scoff at the miracles of Jesus (peace be upon him)? In fact the very first miracle that Jesus (peace be upon him) performed isn't even given in the NT. Qur’an - Surah Maryam (Mary) 19:29

Then will Allaah say: “O Jesus the son of Mary! Recount My favour to thee and to thy mother. Behold! I strengthened thee with the Holy Spirit (Gabriel) so that thou didst speak to the people in childhood and in maturity. Behold! I taught thee the Book and Wisdom, the Law and the Injil and behold! Thou makest out of clay, as it were, the figure of a bird, by My leave, and thou breathest into it and it becometh a bird by My leave, and thou healest those born blind, and the lepers, by My leave. And behold! Thou bringest forth the dead by My leave. And behold! I did restrain the Children of Israel from (violence to) thee when thou didst show them the clear Signs, and the unbelievers among them said: 'This is nothing but evident magic.'
Qur’an - Surah al-Ma’aida (The Table Spread) 5:110 See also 3:49, Acts 2:22;10:38

The so what attitude you have is not of the spirit.

Sorry, I just don't recognise what this spirit you are talking about!

There is a huge difference between a sinning prophet

Prophets are sinless. They make mistakes or errors of judgement but they don't deliberately disobey God intentionally. That is your belief.
Also, for ordinary Muslims, minor sins will be forgiven on the Day of Judgement, the major sins will be held to account and therefore that is why some Muslims will be punished in Hellfire and cleansed of those sins before entering Paradise for eternity.

Jesus said at his last supper:

112. Behold! The disciples, said: “O Jesus the son of Mary! Can thy Lord send down to us a table set (with viands) from heaven?” Said Jesus: “Fear Allaah, if ye have faith.”
113. They said: “We only wish to eat thereof and satisfy our hearts, and to know that thou hast indeed told us the truth; and that we ourselves may be witnesses to the miracle.”
114. Said Jesus the son of Mary: “O Allaah our Lord! Send us from heaven a table set (with viands), that there may be for us - for the first and the last of us - a solemn festival and a sign from thee; and provide for our sustenance, for thou art the best Sustainer (of our needs).”
115. Allaah said: “I will send it down unto you: But if any of you after that resisteth faith, I will punish him with a penalty such as I have not inflicted on any one among all the peoples.”
Qur’an - Surah al-Ma’aida (The Table Spread) 5:112-5

These verses strike me as very interesting because the companions of Jesus were shown many miracles beforehand and they still required more proof.

Gen 1:26 Then God said, “Let us make man in our image, after our likeness.

The Qur'an tells (can't find the verse for the moment) that man is the best creation (after God of course). This is not unsimilar to Gen 1:26. However the interpretation that Jews\Christian place in this verse is not correct IMHO.

What the Muslim scholars say regarding this is that reason why we are the best of creation is because God who has certain attrivutes which He has potentially bestowed on us e.g., we can be Just, Forgiving, etc. We, of course, cannot posses all of God's attributes as some of these attributes belong to God alone e.g. He is the Originator of Creation, He provides life and gives death, etc.
It does not mean that we look like God physically as God doesn't look like His Creation.

You are simply listening to a confused man ...

I can confirm that I am confused by much of what you say.