Are you an atheist?

Are you an atheist?


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    351
What if God is a teapot? Not being facetious, so stick with me.

I mean, primitive people anthropomorphised God to make the whole 'creation' concept easier to understand, but if God can do/be anything, why not assume a teapot shape?

Just for argument's sake, let's say the teapot does exist and that it created everything, using whatever jiggery-pokery was necessary. Wouldn't that just mean that it's the shape of God that's in debate, not the overall concept?
No.
The point is that the human mind is terribly imaginative. It is so imaginative that it can make up an infinite number of scenarios for the begining of the universe. It is so creative that it can create an infinite number of gods and deities and flying teapots. The point is not that one of these things that we have made up created the universe, but we just don't know which one. The point is that all of these things are made up and we just don't know the origin of the universe.
 
Because it is the only viable answer.

It is not the only viable answer. It has been postulated that the Big bang originated from the collapse of a previous universe. We know from the redshift that the expansion of the present universe is slowing down. It is unclear at present if there is sufficient mass in the universe to eventually stop the expansion and start a contraction of the universe which will then finally shrink back to a singularity and the whole process could start again. The advantage of this theory is that it does not require a supernatural being.

I know you won't like this, Mike, because you only seem to want to hear your own answers confirmed but your solution seems to have the weaknesses of both sides in this discussion. The cop out of needing a supernatural being without the comfort that organised religion can bring with its promises of rewards in the afterlife.
 
Alisa said:
If you agree that ASKING what was before the big bang is an invalid question, then why do you insist on ANSWERING the question with the existence of a supernatural god?

I am not actually answering that question with my belief in God, Alisa. I am answering a different question: why is the universe as it is? (And hence a number of flow-on philosophical questions...). Science describes the universe we know (what? and how? questions within our universe) but offers no explanation for it (why?). Religion offers an explanation for 'why', but no useful description of 'what' or 'how'.
 
Science describes the universe we know (what? and how? questions within our universe) but offers no explanation for it (why?). Religion offers an explanation for 'why', but no useful description of 'what' or 'how'.
I disagree. Science provides plenty of "why" answers. Off the top of my head, why does the temperature drop lower on cloudless nights? Because of the insulating effect of clouds. Furthermore, if religion does not attempt to provide how answers, then what is all this stuff about HOW the universe was created?

Anyway, back to the point, it is more accurate to say that religion offers an explanation for that which is currently unknown. As soon as something becomes explicable by science, religion is no longer used to explain why.
 
Alisa said:
Science provides plenty of "why" answers

Erm, sure. I was referring more to the BIG 'why' questions like 'Why are we here?', 'Why is the universe as it is?' .... purpose of life stuff.

So if you want to play at semantics, then fine I'll do my best to oblige you and clarify. Science answers proximate 'why' questions but not the ultimate 'why' questions? Better?

And to respond in kind, I would argue that your why question and explanation is really a limited version of a much broader 'what' question. Like, 'what factors influence air temperature?'

A 'why' question, in the sense that I intended, would be more like 'Why are the laws of physics set-up in such a way that the clouds have an insulating effect on night-time temperatures?'
 
Erm, sure. I was referring more to the BIG 'why' questions like 'Why are we here?', 'Why is the universe as it is?' .... purpose of life stuff.
Yes, everyone assumes that religion answers those questions, but does it really? What explanation of the meaning of life can you get from religion that you can't get from other sources?
 
I am not actually answering that question with my belief in God, Alisa. I am answering a different question: why is the universe as it is? (And hence a number of flow-on philosophical questions...). Science describes the universe we know (what? and how? questions within our universe) but offers no explanation for it (why?). Religion offers an explanation for 'why', but no useful description of 'what' or 'how'.
The key "Why" question is "Why do humans find the need to create religions". In recorded history alone there have been many different religions with many different gods. Most of these gods we are all agreed are not real but merely fabricated by people for many different reasons.

J S B HALdane stated "My own suspicion is that the universe is not only stranger than we suppose, but stranger than we can suppose" so it is not surprising that humans have endeveaoured to explain it and religion offers an easy explanation to this puzzle.
 
Rabbie. Thanks for that quote. It makes a lot of sense to me. :) Although, I'm not sure I agree 100% that religion offers an easy explanation. I think that in most cases people do choose it as a simplistic solution that requires less deep thought, and in that sense it's pretty accurate. But I think that even if you do believe in God, there's still a lot of deep thinking required if you're going to discuss it with other intelligent people because you need to integrate it with everything else that you know, or can conceptualize. I think that, as with any belief system that tries to deal with big picture questions, you need to stretch your mind way outside your natural comfort zone to deal with many of the topics that arise. I think there is a point at which you begin to recognize that there ARE in fact limits to what you can conceptualize because our frame of reference is too restricted by our experience and education.

I think the best thing about that quote, for me, is that it could also be used to encapsulate how I feel about the issue of conceptualizing God (and consequently my refusal to click any of the poll options provided because none of them reflect my views accurately). I think that there is a God and I have my own conception of what 'God' is. I recognize that my conception of God is strongly influenced by my having been born and raised in a western country where Christianity was the historically dominant religion. I can also understand that other people, even other Christians, conceive God in their own way through a filter of their own experience and cultural influences. I put the diversity of religious thought on earth down to the diversity of human experience and cultures. For every person who exists and believes in God/god, there is a unique perception of what God is. Some people have more similarities in perception than others. We tend to label these groups 'religions', but look within those groups and you'll find varying opinions. Heck, over time, you'll find varying opinions from just one person!

The very fact that history shows that humanity seeks to explain unknown phenomena by invoking 'God' is an interesting observation in itself. Why would we do that? It makes no sense to do so if it's just not true, does it? So why would humanity have evolved to blame some unknown being for the vagaries of real-world phenomena (apparently a false premise) when anyone who took a contrarion view should have learned more about the world that is true, and thereby benefitted from that learning and that attitude, and gained an evolutionary advantage. If it's not true, and a hindrance to learning truth about the world, surely natural and cultural selection would have eliminated it long ago?

In any case, I can understand and appreciate that my conception of God is not necessarily the one and only 'correct' conception. It's likely, IMO, that no one has it exactly right. That doesn't mean that there is no 'correct' conception, but rather that none of us may be able to fully grasp it given the limitations of our understanding, and the tools for learning that we have at our disposal.

Alisa said:
What explanation of the meaning of life can you get from religion that you can't get from other sources?

What other sources are you referring to?
 
The very fact that history shows that humanity seeks to explain unknown phenomena by invoking 'God' is an interesting observation in itself. Why would we do that? It makes no sense to do so if it's just not true, does it? So why would humanity have evolved to blame some unknown being for the vagaries of real-world phenomena (apparently a false premise) when anyone who took a contrarion view should have learned more about the world that is true, and thereby benefitted from that learning and that attitude, and gained an evolutionary advantage. If it's not true, and a hindrance to learning truth about the world, surely natural and cultural selection would have eliminated it long ago?


It is an interesting question. People have evolved to listen to their elders when they are young (i.e., listening when your parent says don't touch that it's hot DOES have an evolutionary advantage). Dawkins has proposed that religion is sort of like an unintended consequence of this evolutionary adaptation - people indoctrinate their children with religious beliefs, and because we are evolved to believe what our parents tell us, we accept those beliefs and continue to pass them along to our children. As to why we make up the stories, er religions, in the first place, I think it is because people love stories. When we don't understand something, or when something upsets us, we make up stories to comfort ourselves. There is value in that, even if it is not true. It is the same comfort we get in modern times from watching movies and sitcoms, and reading books, etc. We can still have that comfort without believing that there is a god though.

What other sources are you referring to?
You said that the purpose of religion is to answer the big questions, like what is the purpose of life. I asked, what answers does religion give you?
 
I know you won't like this, Mike, because you only seem to want to hear your own answers confirmed but your solution seems to have the weaknesses of both sides in this discussion. The cop out of needing a supernatural being without the comfort that organised religion can bring with its promises of rewards in the afterlife.

Rabbie,

The reason I go back to the Big Bang is for the same reason I say to "born agains" who have attempted to recruit me......let's start at Genesis, not Jesus.....because if Genesis/Old Testament is off the mark then there is not much point going any further.
 
Do I believe the universe has been there for all time? I don't know, it has nothing to do with belief. Perhaps the point is that I, and most scientists, are content to say 'I don't know', I don't feel a need to be able to explain the beginning and end of everything, although finding out is compulsive, I am content that when I die there is nothing after, I don't need to think that there is any higher purpose to humanity, that we are animals, nothing more.

Like many other people you are trying relate a supernatural to religion.

The existence of a supernatural may or may not be connected to religion.
 
Viable? How?

There are onoy two choices:

1) Physics
2) A supernatural

Hawking and Co say physics is out of the picture at Big Bang. Thus leaders in the field have opted out of physics.

Thus a supernatural is the only viable alternative.
 
Tell me Mick, do you think that books like The Devil Rides Out etc. etc are nothing more than a figment of the imagination?:confused:

Rich,

I am not familiar with that book. Is it this book?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Devil_Rides_Out

I only believe in black magic etc in the sense that it does affect people and because of their own minds/directions. However, that can of course lead to a reality for those people.

However, I am firmly convinced that an outside force is at work and that in turn could lead people down another path. In other words someone such as myself would be more likely to go down black magic road than you would.

As I have said before on this thread I do not regard what I call an outside force as being the supernatural of pre Big Bang. I believe there are beings that are above us and at different levels all the way through to Big Bang. There is no valid reason to doubt this because to do so puts man at the top in the universe. The chimp is said to have a DNA that is 97% like what we have yet in terms of results the gap between us and a chimp is 1000 times greater, perhaps a million times greater than the gap between a chimp and a lizard. So what would a being that was above us be like.
 
Alisa,

Belief in a supernatural is not a created thing. People don't go and say..I had better whip up a supernatural to handle the bad days...

An atheist would be like someone who is having problems with Access functions and chooses to completely ignore that they might have a problem with Windows or their computer.

Don't you find it strange that so many medical specialists are of the view....there is definitely something there...

Consider what the medical specialist is all about. He not only has the highest levels of education but in addition the training/filtering system is such that he sees the patient as an object. He is part of a system that is about processing. Much better to punch 40,000 people through a hospital and have a 10% foul up rate than customise the system to get a 1% foul up rate but only have 4000 people go through. In other words the community is better off with a 10% foul up rate on 40000 people as opposed to having 36000 people unable to be processed. Yet with all his education and this type of attidude why do they as a group say...there is definitely something there...
 
I wasn't talking about 'knowing', I was responding to the persistent idea that science requires faith as much as a god, but, to me, belief in any kind of god seems to require the abandonment of logic and scientific method.

Hawking and Co give up on pre Big Bang.

So it is either a case of them taking up the challenge and getting the answer or it is a supernatural. Either one requires faith on your part.

With Big Bang adding a beginning to the equation and Hawking and Co saying they can't go pre Big Bang because all physics is finished......stacks the odds in favour of a supernatural. As science has moved on it has strengthened the odds of a supernatural that was playing about in its sand pit.

As a side note, if Hawking and Co make an announcement tomorrow that they have the answer....will you take that on faith or do your own sums? If you take it on faith will you expect their answer to change in the future. Based on the past, any announcement on how the show got off the ground will be subject to change, thus you would need to abandon all logic to accept tomorrow's answer as the answer.
 
That's the one, one of many on the subject

Just like reading the Bible?

My Bible reading is limited:D.....Genesis is enough. Although the Book of Job has an interesting part that could indicate God is referring to dinosaurs and not an elephant (or hippo) and crocodile, both of which are often mentioned in Bible footnotes but the descriptions don't match either.

One of the descriptions by God is a good match for a sauropod and the other is a good match for the large pre historic ocean type reptiles. This is quite interesting because the descriptions were wriiten well before dinosaurs and reptiles of the same period were discovered. The animal that meets the description of a sauropod is especially interesting because it is highly unlikely someone would dream up an animal like a sauropod.
 
A 'why' question, in the sense that I intended, would be more like 'Why are the laws of physics set-up in such a way that the clouds have an insulating effect on night-time temperatures?'

And why is a string vest warmer than a normal one?...........
 
My Bible reading is limited:D.....Genesis is enough. Although the Book of Job has an interesting part that could indicate God is referring to dinosaurs and not an elephant (or hippo) and crocodile, both of which are often mentioned in Bible footnotes but the descriptions don't match either.

One of the descriptions by God is a good match for a sauropod and the other is a good match for the large pre historic ocean type reptiles. This is quite interesting because the descriptions were wriiten well before dinosaurs and reptiles of the same period were discovered. The animal that meets the description of a sauropod is especially interesting because it is highly unlikely someone would dream up an animal like a sauropod.

The product of a vivid imagination...........
 

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