American War Crimes are Happening All Around Us (1 Viewer)

[NauticalGent]

There is no war crime because there is no war. War can only be authorized by Congress. The attacks are murders.

Another inconvenient truth...

 

[Isaac]

I think some shaking things up was needed, and would have accomodated a bit of stretching-the-laws to get things done, and ironically I still think most of what Trump does is "something going in the right direction very generally speaking", but am very uncomfortable with the breadth and depth of his lawbreaking at this point. Blatantly using lawfare at every turn, charging everybody he doesn't agree with with mortgage fraud (apparently an easy one to indict anybody on, kind of like tax auditing), and the whole immigration thing is just grossly wrong. Disappearing people who are obediently and dutifully in the middle of a process to become legal, arresting people in front of their kids at school, mass arresting people based on accent and skin color, revoking stuff that isn't mean to be revocable, the list goes on and on and on.

He refuses to humble himself as a good leader, says dumb stuff every single day, does childish things that make America look anything but great.

Extreme crises DID call for extreme action, but not like Trump does it. There was every opportunity in the world to address these issues without behaving the way he behaves or doing it the way he's doing it.

My hope is that the Republicans keep winning, but Trump fades fast and stays faded. At some point he obviously must die, but I'm hoping we don't have to wait that long to get him OUT of the Republican party. He embarasses us on the daily. And I firmly believe that some of the people he surrounds himself with are, deep in their hearts, very racist and just mean people who are salivating at the mouth being given the power to implement some of their grossest sado-economic fantasies.

I unabashedly will say I hate wokism and liberalism, the way it invents silly things and psychologically molests the minds of children on a variety of delicate topics. People who are whispering in children's ears about changing their gender should be put in jail.

But Trumpism has gone a long way toward undermining the respect people might have otherwise had for conservatism.

So now, sadly, the pendelum will swing back - too far, and we'll be stuck with some dumb liberal for the subsequent 4 years.

 

[Isaac]

I blame these types of threads for why this forum feels so much worse than it used to.

Anyone who thinks their political party's shit don't stink is wearing some pretty heavy beer goggles. At the end of the day, neither of them are improving regular American lives. Instead of working together and compromising together like they were elected to do, they are stoking the divide with the worst language I've ever seen in politics. Yes, both of them. And it's all of us that suffer for it.

But keep pretending like your party is better. Nothing to see here, folks.

But we still get new people daily on this forum, the Introduction forum is a busy bee from what I can see.

Anyway, yes - anyone who doesn't think there is corruption and nastiness and deception coming from their party is delusional, I agree.
And it's the worst divide I've ever seen or heard of from studying the past, too, at least for a long time.

I think Trump's general ideas (such-and-such needs to change, such-and-such needs to go more in such-and-such direction) are right and true, if uncomfortable sometimes. But the way he goes about doing things is horrible, and makes the solution worse than the problem in some cases.

All in all, I regret Trump's effect on the Republican party and everyone.

Now, about arguing politics. People will do well to improve their ability to discuss things without personally feeling angry at the other person. It's a basic life skill, a very basic thing that should be learned during childhood and teenage years. What's sad to me isn't the discussing politics, it's when I see people literally unable to do so without becoming emotionally unstable and harmful. We SHOULD be able to discuss extremely important issues and at the end shake hands and toast our health in a sincere way. There is no way around this. Trying to shut it down or sweep it under the rug doesn't do any good. the only way out of this mess America is in is to continue talking, in fact to talk even more until we FINALLY learn to empathize with the other side, to put your feet in their shoes (not so you're a mile away and have a new pair of shoes) but to learn a basic life-skill: EMPATHY.

You learn empathy by seeing others' examples. For example, me and Doc Man have often argued about religion and various lifestyle choices or biological situations. When people see, if they see, us arguing but coming back out of it unscathed and still with a basic respect for the other, who would have the other over for coffee if given the chance, that's a good thing. When I see @KitaYama disagreeing with someone but doing it in a respectful way, that sets an example.

Pretending this incredible divide doesn't exist in America won't help. We must continue talking our way through it and learn HOW to talk (apparently).

 

[The_Doc_Man]

You posted this in the Debate forum. This wasn't a debate, it was an accusation/admonishment. No matter how I feel about what you said (the answer may surprise you), you posted this knowing full well who would engage and what "side" they would take.

I am entirely sure your purpose was to "stir it" - knowing full well that it would degrade into a "my side sucks less than yours" argument, as they always do - and not to bring up a topic with the intent of stimulating perspectives. I don't think you're a bad guy and obviously articulate and intelligent. But to say you had not intention and being a dick is just not true.

The moderator hat is ON.

NG has correctly characterized this thread's topic as a "stir-the-pot" situation. @Thales750 - you pulled a political topic into a more generalized forum because we no longer have the Politics & Current Events forum. Remember that forum? I hope you do - because it got taken away from us when it got out of hand. We lost that forum in order to protect the site as a whole. Some other forums that are supposedly more technical in focus nonetheless will sometimes get political incursions that have the potential to blow up. It was exactly this problem of political incursion that led to the departure of two veteran members.

Jon's goal is to minimize censorship, tempered by the need to avoid subjects that blow up into a verbal donnybrook. Note that I still have not censored anything, because I'm hoping to lead folks to recognize the need for self-censorship. I don't want to put someone in time-out. I want to avoid heavy-handed direct control and am hoping to persuade folks to think beyond the implications of a single provocative post. Jon mentioned that moderators have to be the "adult in the room." I'm trying to get the other presumptive adults here to see the danger of this path.

Though Jon would like to run this as a wide-open, nearly-anything-goes site, that ain't what he can provide due to OSA. But he still accepts the risks of keeping the forum open despite several sources of disruption including competition, regulatory issues, and monetary issues in the face of slowly declining visitation. (I'm cribbing that list from one of Jon's other posts...) I hope folks recognize that if we cannot contribute positively to the forum, at least we can try to not contribute negatively.

The moderator hat is OFF.

 

[Thales750]

You posted this in the Debate forum. This wasn't a debate, it was an accusation/admonishment. No matter how I feel about what you said (the answer may surprise you), you posted this knowing full well who would engage and what "side" they would take.

I am entirely sure your purpose was to "stir it" - knowing full well that it would degrade into a "my side sucks less than yours" argument, as they always do - and not to bring up a topic with the intent of stimulating perspectives. I don't think you're a bad guy and obviously articulate and intelligent. But to say you had not intention and being a dick is just not true.

Actually the reason I posted this is because I live in a place where it's overwhelmed with Southeast Texas conservatism. My customers are all conservative my family members are all service conservative, if I post on some other social media where everybody else can see it then I'm going to actually ostracize myself from the people that are important to me. I can vent here with no real damage to my life. But I don't want to have a repeat of what happened with the path I find no pride in that whatsoever no joy no feeling of being vindicated, just bad.
I do have another goal when it comes to this. I want to witness The Epiphany that is coming for everybody that believes that it's all going to be okay if we can just bring back the way it used to be. The used to be is dead and it will never return no matter what political party is in power, that ship is sailed.
And the third point which I continue to make and nobody even pays attention to it citizens united is at the heart of All American political corruption.

 

[Isaac]

out of your 3 things list. the second one , well that's sad - you don't think there's any going back to the traditional republican-ism of the past? Are we so used to overspending and government dependency that there is no going back?
And I am going to do a little research on Citizens United, I have to admit I have heard of it but do not know it

 

[AccessBlaster]

Citizens united was litigated by the Supreme Court 15 years ago, it's over.

 

[Isaac]

And I am in fact pretty worried about Trump vs. Venezuela. Yes drug trafficking is ruining America to an extent but since we all know half the problem (at LEAST half) is Demand ... What about putting all that energy and money into addiction and recovery help rather than trying to bail out the boat with a cup so to speak? And are we setting the right precedent by just nuking boats in the water that nobody anywhere trusts the government to vet as 100% drug trafficking, and even if they were, do we have the right to just kill them? Why not intercept them and do something other than killing? What about his threats toward doing it 'on land soon' ? Is he manufacturing some war with Venezuela now? It's a mess out there but the mess is of our own making, because Americans like drugs......A LOT.

 

[The_Doc_Man]

I'm going to actually ostracize myself from the people that are important to me. I can vent here with no real damage to my life.

Thank you twice.

First, we are obviously NOT important to you because you don't care that you are ostracizing yourself with us. Thanks for the vote of confidence from someone who has just been called "unimportant." But of course, my complaint will ALSO be unimportant. I'm sure that will really make the day of other forum members.

Second, you can vent here with no real damage to YOUR life but if you stir up enough controversy, you will have a negative effect on OUR lives. If you stir up enough muck, you invite someone to report the forum and then Jon and the moderators will have no choice but to remove your offensive posts. THINK about the consequences of your posts. You are NOT in a vacuum.

Stop, please, and carefully consider what you just said. You said you need us because the people near you don't take your views kindly. Those are the people that KNOW you and you admit they would think you are wrong-headed. We who don't really know you that well have ALSO said you are wrong-headed. Perhaps that is a multi-layered reflection of you. Occasional opinions are a statistical anomaly. Multiple concurring opinions represent the start of a trend.

I want to witness The Epiphany that is coming for everybody that believes that it's all going to be okay if we can just bring back the way it used to be. The used to be is dead and it will never return no matter what political party is in power, that ship is sailed.

Many of us are still waiting for YOUR epiphany - that YOU are yourself looking to older ways to return. Or can YOU not not see that?

I will be blunt but I will try to avoid vulgarities. You consider us unimportant. You don't care about venting to us because it has no effect on your life (i.e. speak with no expectation of repercussions). You don't post anything technical in your current identity. You post inflammatory comments in an inappropriate forum hoping to get a response but not apparently caring if the response is explosive rather than merely irritated.

You know what matches that definition? A troll. Can you tell us why WE need YOU?

 

[Thales750]

This is a significant statement involving some level of irony. The liberal Democrats are still throwing people under the bus because they have not yet had the realization that THEIR viewpoint leads to unsustainable situations - witness Greece of a little more than a decade ago. It is always a matter of degree and sometimes also a matter of kind, but the common point is that a government exacts taxes so they can spend someone else's money. When that taxing and spending reach a high enough point, the bill becomes due but the wallet is empty.

Want to try a more modern country? How about mainland China right now, where the younger generation has started a "minimalist action" movement in which the younger generation of adults have stopped working and "gone on the dole" because they see that all the hard work gets them nowhere. The harder they work, the more their government takes. They see no path to get ahead. With capitalism, greed and envy can become positive motivating forces. So that generation has stopped working because their government allows them to do so. Do you want to guess what effect that has on China's economy? And that is one of the extreme socialist states.

Have you ever wondered why when conservative talk about socialism (of any kind) they inevitably cite failed states. And then if anyone mentions countries that have are successful, where the people live longer than us, are more secure, are happier, have cleaner environments, and have better health care, they brush it off.

The reaction is always the same "oh you can't compare us to those smaller countries". And yet, they are happy to parade, I don't know, Greece.

Until we shift the tax bourdon over to the folks that get their wealth from owning stocks, we will continue to spiral down as a nation. Stocks and other similar financial instruments have become nontaxable income for the wealthiest people in the world. And they have managed to convince so many you guys that they are entitled to it. You rebuttal will probably be you accusing me of being jealous, because you have been told multiple thousands of times that I am the problem and that I am blaming them for may failed life.
I'm a successful small business owner and I helped raise a successful daughter.

out of your 3 things list. the second one , well that's sad - you don't think there's any going back to the traditional republican-ism of the past? Are we so used to overspending and government dependency that there is no going back?
And I am going to do a little research on Citizens United, I have to admit I have heard of it but do not know it

You mean good Republicans like Teddy Roosevelt, and Eisenhower. They were pretty liberal compared to modern conservatives, is that what you're longing for, liberal Republicans? That's not what I'm talking about I'm talking about the reestablishing of the global Monarchy driven Empires. During the time of the feudal systems taxes were collected from people down the ladder, and it wound up in the hands of the wealthiest.

Capitalist nations on the other hand have oscillated between times of the tax money flowing either up or down. During the robber barons the money flowed up, after the first Roosevelt (a Republican) the money started to flow down .

In our current society, every mechanism of our society including federal taxes, is design to facilitate the upward concentration of wealth. Another Republican, Eisenhower, warned us about the military industrial complex. Can you see any modern Republican doing any of those things?

And the Democrats in our world, which are likewise owned by the very same people that force us eat sugar, deny us health care, and own all the major media, play a prime role as well.

They don't stand for the average person, the result is driving people over to the Republican side where they (Republicans) openly call for less taxes on the wealthiest, and they openly vote to end healthcare for our middle class and elderly, and of course, all lower class folks even the hard workers that support our lives. And then call other health care systems socialist, even as those people live longer healthier happier lives.

These are the reason people interpret my words as Trump hating. He is the embodiment of everything diabolical in our political system. Is he the only one?

Obviously not, but he by far the worst example.

Thank you for reading this.

 

[Thales750]

Thank you twice.

First, we are obviously NOT important to you because you don't care that you are ostracizing yourself with us. Thanks for the vote of confidence from someone who has just been called "unimportant." But of course, my complaint will ALSO be unimportant. I'm sure that will really make the day of other forum members.

Second, you can vent here with no real damage to YOUR life but if you stir up enough controversy, you will have a negative effect on OUR lives. If you stir up enough muck, you invite someone to report the forum and then Jon and the moderators will have no choice but to remove your offensive posts. THINK about the consequences of your posts. You are NOT in a vacuum.

Stop, please, and carefully consider what you just said. You said you need us because the people near you don't take your views kindly. Those are the people that KNOW you and you admit they would think you are wrong-headed. We who don't really know you that well have ALSO said you are wrong-headed. Perhaps that is a multi-layered reflection of you. Occasional opinions are a statistical anomaly. Multiple concurring opinions represent the start of a trend.



Many of us are still waiting for YOUR epiphany - that YOU are yourself looking to older ways to return. Or can YOU not not see that?

I will be blunt but I will try to avoid vulgarities. You consider us unimportant. You don't care about venting to us because it has no effect on your life (i.e. speak with no expectation of repercussions). You don't post anything technical in your current identity. You post inflammatory comments in an inappropriate forum hoping to get a response but not apparently caring if the response is explosive rather than merely irritated.

You know what matches that definition? A troll. Can you tell us why WE need YOU?

That is a lot of extrapolating Doc. I didn't see this part earlier or I may have responded earlier. I never said you were unimportant, or that you don't matter.
But, me stating generally civilized differences of perspective, causing people to get stirred up, is really their problem.
I think Conservative are stirred up because they know that the platform they have been supporting is corrupt and their only justification is to point out that the Dems are also corrupt.

The final part of part one: I actually listen to you, and find you intelligent and caring, I suspect that the people in your life hold you in high esteem I know I do, and in these discussion we disagree regularly, less than would appear though because suspect you don't really want to be seen as publicly agreeing with a pathetic Troll like me.

Number two and 2.5: No one in my life would think me wrong headed. They, like many here, cannot control their urge to become angry when faces with political challenges. Whenever I encounter people from either side of aisle that get immediately angry at dissention , I know them to be brainwashed. You probably think i don't encounter to much anger from Liberals, being in your mind. I'm one of them. You would be surprised. I'm equally hated by them as well. Some of them are even pretty ferocious in their often overly shrill attacks.

I have a couple of rebuttals to your previous posits, if you would like to hear them.
And oh yeah, The people who can't control their attitudes don't have to come to the sand box you know.

 

[Thales750]

@The_Doc_Man made a fundamental observation that I failed to realize: "you picked the "Debates" forum". Your initial post was not presented as a topic to be debated. Concerning how a proposed debate should presented Grok provided the following response: "One punchy, debatable question or statement (e.g., “Is universal basic income a good idea?” or “Crypto will replace fiat within 20 years — yes or no?”)."

The title is a question, how would you prefer we write it?

 

[The_Doc_Man]

But, me stating generally civilized differences of perspective, causing people to get stirred up, is really their problem.

When you use emotionally charged words to ask your question, "stating generally civilized differences" is itself a questionable statement. And claiming that American war crimes are happening all around us, based on your previous posts, can only be taken as an attack on the current president. I have many times suggested that to me, Trump was the lesser of two evils - but I remember when people attacked Biden and the uproar, the outrage, the outcry was voluminous.

Until we shift the tax bourdon over to the folks that get their wealth from owning stocks

Them's fightin' words. My mother worked for Southern Bell 38 years 9 months and was in the employee stock option plan. She was an accounting clerk, not what you would call a high-level job by any means... the bottom rung of white collar. BUT that phone company stock's dividends plus the phone company pension plan meant that she could keep her home while her mind slowly decayed away under the influence of Alzheimer's Disease. And ESOPs are how low-level folks COULD share in the American dream. Oh, by the way - those dividends WERE (and still ARE) taxed.

When people own stock in a company, it is representative of a monetary investment they made to get some of their money to work for them in parallel to their own direct work. That investment is how companies finance growth and improvements. I'd surely like it if some the highest execs got less compensation, but since the legends of Robin Hood, "steal from the rich and give to the poor" has been a populist mantra. Except they change "steal" to "tax" to make it sound more legal.

In 2022, the top 1% (by wealth) of US population earned 22% of the AGI but paid 40% of the tax burden. The top 1% paid more taxes than the bottom 90% combined. In the 21 years from 2001 to 2022, the top 1% used to pay 33% but now pay 40% of taxes. Therefore, the top 1% pay rate IS going up. And yet you want even more? DO YOU UNDERSTAND MOTIVATION?

In China, young adults have become demotivated because the taxes they pay keep them from getting ahead. We've got at least some of that here. You want the country's debt situation to improve? Then get EVERYONE to pay taxes, no freebies now or ever. But the lowest percentages don't pay any taxes at all. They've got no skin in the game.

 

[The_Doc_Man]

The title is a question, how would you prefer we write it?

Given the sensitive nature of politics on this forum over the last couple of months, I wouldn't have written anything. The question was borderline incendiary and provocative. You might think you live in a vacuum, but I know I don't.