An open letter to Adam/vba_php (1 Viewer)

vba_php

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Then I suggest you go reread that entire chapter again, bud. You posted that as being the Golden Rule he was paraphrasing, when his paraphrase is of 7:12. 7:5 is him telling people off for condemning someone, because none of the people doing the condemnations were free of sin, making them hypocrites.
here you go my friend: https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Matthew+7&version=NIV
NOWHERE in there is Jesus' words demeaning to other people. He says the word "hypocrite" because he's talking about other people who are being such. He's not being a hypocrite himself. Again, he and only he has the authority to make those comments. the sections about "True and False Prophets", "The Wise and Foolish Builders" and "True and False Disciples" have nothing to do with judging others. He's *teaching*, nothing else. You must be mistaken, or you're reading something else.
 

Frothingslosh

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First off, work on your reading comprehension: I never at any point said that JESUS was being a hypocrite. I said that your quote - which STILL is not the Golden Rule that Doc paraphrased, no matter how much you try to change the topic - is about how condemning people for their sins when you yourself are not free of sin is hypocrisy.

Yes, specifically I said 'telling people off', because for some reason I was thinking the Adulterous Wife, not the Sermon on the Mount, but that's beside the point here. 7:5 is 'don't condemn when you are just as guilty', while as I pointed out, 7:12 is source of Doc's 'Do unto others...' quote.

All your misdirection here doesn't change the fact that 7:12 is, indeed, the source of the common quote 'Do unto others as you would have them do unto you'.
 

vba_php

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All your misdirection here doesn't change the fact that 7:12 is, indeed, the source of the common quote 'Do unto others as you would have them do unto you'.
I guess I'm not following you. hell, I'm not perfect, but my duty has become to educate others on how to live a righteous life and live in a way that is pleasing to the holy spirit, or at least try to. so if you want me to follow you, ur gonna have to treat me like a 2 year old and explain it to me. sorry.
 

Frothingslosh

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All I was trying to say is that the source of 'Do unto others as you would have them do unto you' is Matthew 7:12. That's it. That's the whole statement you're so confused by and having such difficulty understanding.

It's simple.

Doc quoted "Do unto others as you would have them do unto you"

You replied saying that was from Matthew 7:5:
"You hypocrite! First, remove the beam out of your own eye, and then you can see clearly to remove the speck out of your brother’s eye."
I replied that no, it comes from Matthew 7:12 (and this can be confirmed from hundreds of sources with seconds' worth of research):
"Therefore all things whatsoever ye would that men should do to you: do ye even so to them: for this is the law and the prophets"
From that, first you argue that I'm somehow claiming that Jesus has no moral authority, then when I explain that 7:5 is about him pointing out the hypocrisy of condemning people for something you're guilty of yourself, and that 7:12 is the source of the Golden Rule, you state that I'm accusing Jesus of hypocrisy. All I did was give the correct source of the quote.
 

The_Doc_Man

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you need to talk to people like me or the monk I talked to at the monastery. we are the good people, whereas the "false" teachers of the world are people like Joel Osteen, Joyce Meyer, Peter Popoff, and so many others I can't even mention them here cuz my hands would get tired of typing!
Adam, food for thought. The people whom you decry as "false teachers" would in fact claim that they ARE teaching God's word, and usually have a couple of divinity degrees (M.Div or D.Div) to back up their authority. Not to mention that they have LOTS of followers. How is the average Joe Schmoe going to know the difference quickly enough to not waste time barking up the wrong tree and getting sucked into their particular maelstrom? Particularly when from the outside, the messages are all so similar as to be different only by the most diminutive of comparisons.

By the way, a friend of our family used to throw parties at which one of the attendees WAS a monk. As in, lived in a monastery, studied the Bible and other related writings, had a couple of divinity degrees, etc. Nice guy, wasn't bothered by the fact that I was not a worshiper. Didn't shun me, didn't try to sprinkle holy water on me, didn't try to touch me with a cross, etc. If there was anything about which his profundity was evident, it was that he was tolerant of everyone around him. Gay, straight, Catholic, Protestant, Jew, Muslim, atheist, any other designation. (We didn't have any Satanists in the crowd, though, so I don't know how he would have reacted to that.)

You know (if you remember my background) that I was a Methodist for a long time. During that time, some of the lessons stayed with me as making sense even if I didn't buy into the mysticism, miracles, majesty, or mythology of the Bible. For instance, I have tried to remain tolerant of people. Despite your previous insults on another forum, I have chosen to not carry that grudge. Water under the bridge.

And I wasn't particularly trying to quote scripture so much as bringing an older statement into a newer context and point out that you don't seem to apply it in your on-line life, Adam. But thanks for the references, Frothingslosh.
 

Frothingslosh

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It wasn't so much for your sake, Doc, as it was that the incorrect reference bugged the hell out of me. :)
 

The_Doc_Man

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And for the record, I used the Oxford New International Version, for which my quote was actually pretty close:

So in everything, do to others what you would have them do to you, for this sums up the Law and the Prophets
Three words off because I always forget the "to" vs. "unto" issues. And used "as" instead of "what" - but the message is still there.
 

vba_php

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The people whom you decry as "false teachers" would in fact claim that they ARE teaching God's word, and usually have a couple of divinity degrees (M.Div or D.Div) to back up their authority.
Richard, a divinity degree doesn't have a damn thing to do with being holy or knowing God and connecting to his spirit in any way. See the articles on these saints and almost-saints for proof of this, and further evidence that God cares not one bit about gaining knowledge in the area of "divinity studies" (it's fine to do this, but in God's eyes, it means nothing as it not at all necessary):

  1. Padre Pio - a poor Italian friar
  2. Faustina Kowalska - a lowly Polish nun
  3. Charlene Richard - a young girl in her teens
  4. Solanus Casey - a lowly doorman at a church
  5. Bernadette Soubirous - a poverty stricken French girl
  6. Lucia Santos - yet another extremely poor catholic saint

As a matter of fact, when it comes to being on the righteousness and spiritual level of those people I just mentioned, the more "informed" someone is by getting high level degrees in divinity, the less chance they have of actually connecting to God's heart and understanding it like those people above obviously did.
Not to mention that they have LOTS of followers. How is the average Joe Schmoe going to know the difference quickly enough to not waste time barking up the wrong tree and getting sucked into their particular maelstrom?
if they know the scriptures well, these passages by Jesus and Paul warn them of that crap:
ACTS 20:29

"For I know this, that after my departing shall grievous wolves enter in among you, not sparing the flock."
MATTHEW 7:15

"Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves"
 

The_Doc_Man

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Again, you miss the point. I'll be more direct this time.

If someone knows those scriptures well, they will be aware that there are ravening wolves out there. But HOW DO YOU TELL A FALSE PROPHET FROM A REAL ONE? To carry the "wolf" analogy a little farther along, you only know AFTER you have been bitten. Look at David Koresh in Waco. Look at Jim Jones in Ghana. Knowing the Bible does no one ANY good on this question. A charismatic speaker will make it hard for you to remain objective. So how do you know?

And speaking of "judge ye not lest ye be judged..." seems to me that you are now badly judging the folks who studied piously to get a divinity degree, tarring them with a very broad brush. Your condemnation of them seemed to me to be fairly broad, anyway. Are you sure you should be making such judgments?

Oh, for your future reference if you are going to come up with a list of people originally deemed a bit "dense" for priesthood, try adding Brother Andre:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/André_Bessette

I've been to his monument, St. Joseph's Oratory in Montreal. Impressive. I understand he is one step away from the formal declaration of Sainthood. We were vacationing in that part of Canada. I took my wife there because she likes old churches with a bit of history to them.

If you ... want to know what the new covenant means, you need to talk to people like me
I'm quite sorry to have to say it, but based on the quality of advice you have given on this and other forums, I'll need to talk to the monk.
 

vba_php

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ABut HOW DO YOU TELL A FALSE PROPHET FROM A REAL ONE?
the best anyone can do is take the scriptures and protect themselves accordingly, Richard. The warnings are all in there. I could find some examples for you, but off hand I don't haave any memorized. But I know they're in there.
A charismatic speaker will make it hard for you to remain objective. So how do you know?
Again, see above. Charisma that results in a message of falseness can be easily detected by an intelligent human being.
And speaking of "judge ye not lest ye be judged..." seems to me that you are now badly judging the folks who studied piously to get a divinity degree, tarring them with a very broad brush.
no offense Grandpa, but I think your narrowness of mind is affecting you on this one. My words condemned no one. I was simply pointing out (per my find words of my last post) that educating oneself in the academic area of "divinity" is totally not necessary when it comes to one's desire to know the holy spirit and connect with him via the heart and soul.
Are you sure you should be making such judgments?
see above.
Oh, for your future reference if you are going to come up with a list of people originally deemed a bit "dense" for priesthood, try adding Brother Andre:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/André_Bessette
p-
did I say DENSE? That wiki article of yours says that dude has some miracles attributed to him. Well good for him. I have never heard of Brother Andre, but that doesn't mean he didn't exist. There are hundreds of saints and I only know of the most popular and controversial ones.
I'm quite sorry to have to say it, but based on the quality of advice you have given on this and other forums, I'll need to talk to the monk.
the *quality* of my advice? what are we talking about here, grandpa? my *supposed* MS Access knowledge (according to Colin :p), or my advice about Christianity and knowing the holy spirit? And if you actually *did* talk to the monk, I'm sure he would be very accepting of you in terms of what you wanted to talk about, but rest assured, he's just like any other person out there that is deeply committed to the church they're part of.....if you to push him too hard, he would more than likely start to reject your terse statements about unbelief in God and encourage you to reconsider. Monks are extremely sensitive people who have good hearts, and a lot of them don't have the energy, willingness or thick skin to go into depth via conversations on difficult topics. I witnessed that first hand when I was at the monastery. I was just lucky to have talked to one that was willing to reciprocate. But I made sure to tread lightly and not overload him with details, like I do on this forum sometimes to newbies. And of course when I told him I was headed for the catholic church because I knew it was the only true church, he lit up with joy, told me I was welcome back anytime, shook my hand firmly and then disappeared into his restricted area of the building. Go figure. :)
 

vba_php

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Why do you both try to convince each other?
we're not doing this, Tera. We are going back and forth in an effort to *understand* each other. Richard and I have done this for months now literally. Ever since I re-appeared here after being away for 10 years since my previous banishment. And no, you're not rude by chiming in. This thread is open to anyone.
 

vba_php

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oh by the way Richard, I thought you might be interested in this....I had a lady call me 2 days ago from Boston and she wanted to ask if I would be interested in an MS Access job in Boston. They are using Access integrated with windows to provide resources to blind and deaf people and let them live life with more dignity. Which would be a great opportunity to do some good out there....certainly a rare occurrence in this non-sense filled world. When I told her that I had been working with Access since 1992 version 1 when it was introduced she was pretty happy. But according to some here on this forum (who shall remain nameless), I can't possibly know anything about it and my advice is 100% wrong most of the time anyway. She won't know though for sure unless I start working for her. But obviously she's intrigued by what I said because not more than 8 hours passed and my references were calling me telling me she was calling *them*. So, it's very possible I could end up in bean town and posting here, from there.
 

Tera

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I deleted my message as soon as I posted it.
You were too fast to reply.

Welcome back by the way.
 

vba_php

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I thought it may hurt both of you.
I rarely get offended by anything, sir. I can't speak for Richard though, since his terseness is hard to decipher out sometimes. Personally, I could care less what you do or say around here, but obviously you have to watch your step or you'll get temporarily banned like me. :)
 

The_Doc_Man

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I will accept "terse" as a criticism because I have admitted it to others. My problem is that often I feel that I have a lot to say but want to avoid being told "TL;DNR" (Too long, did not read). Finding a balance between what I wanted to say and what I thought might be short enough for people to read is a difficult evaluation sometimes. My "associative memory" tends to think of many side-ways links at the same time and it is hard to keep that stream (or shall I say "flood") of consciousness in check. So "terse" is definitely part of my personal issues.

However, if you were using "terse" in the sense of "harsh" then you have misread my intention.
 

The_Doc_Man

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Adam, Adam, Adam...

no offense Grandpa, but I think your narrowness of mind is affecting you on this one. My words condemned no one.
As a matter of fact, when it comes to being on the righteousness and spiritual level of those people I just mentioned, the more "informed" someone is by getting high level degrees in divinity, the less chance they have of actually connecting to God's heart and understanding it like those people above obviously did.
Those are YOUR words from two different posts in THIS thread. Sounds condemning / judging to me. You might not see it that way, but that is the way it comes across. You accuse me of being "terse" (which I have separately acknowledged and explained) but then here YOU go being blindly judgmental and not realizing it. Maybe if you would control that overweening ego of yours and work on the beam in your eye, you might be better able to discern the mote in the eyes of others.

By analogy to your apparent standards as represented by that statement, my Ph.D. in chemistry means I don't know a damned thing about chemicals and chemical processes. Albert Einstein's Ph.D. meant he didn't know a damned thing about physics. Hideki Ukawa's Ph.D. meant he didn't know a damned thing about nuclear physics, never mind the Nobel Prize he got for using theory to predict and describe the particle known as the Mu meson before it was actually discovered. The Rev. Billy Graham got a degree in divinity. Did HE know anything?

I continually rub your nose in your own stink and you still don't get it. I get that you had to learn things the hard way, but that doesn't relate to whether others of us who learned a different way have a better, worse, or equal education. It is not worthy of your own intellect to take the attitude you have taken. You are wasting your brain power on things that are not worth it.

Adam, I do not wish you ill luck. When I criticize you, it is because I hope to help you improve your luck by recognizing issues that others have found objectionable. I'll be enough of your friend to tell you the truth. In our past discussions, you have complained about the way folks treat you and I have tried to point out why that ill treatment happens. If you have technical skills, you will get a good job. If you don't improve your interpersonal skills, you won't keep that job. Or at least, from what we can see on the forum, that will be your downfall every time.

I will offer a side comment. Boston is a very nice area if you don't mind snow. They have many cultural diversions. I have friends who live in the greater Boston area. They love it other than the butt-deep snowdrifts. If you are considering this Boston gig, then obviously you have either rejected or have not yet accepted that job that would require you to take some intense OOP training. Your choices are yours. I hope for your sake that you can make some good ones.
 

vba_php

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Maybe if you would control that overweening ego of yours and work on the beam in your eye, you might be better able to discern the mote in the eyes of others.
there might be a little truth in that, Richard. But as of now, I'm one of the leaders, at least that's the way people in the church world look at me. So I really don't have a choice but to be "convincing" when I'm talking. It's just a consequence of leadership. If that's what they want me to do, I'll do it. No issue there.
By analogy to your apparent standards as represented by that statement, my Ph.D. in chemistry means I don't know a damned thing about chemicals and chemical processes. Albert Einstein's Ph.D. meant he didn't know a damned thing about physics. Hideki Ukawa's Ph.D. meant he didn't know a damned thing about nuclear physics, never mind the Nobel Prize he got for using theory to predict and describe the particle known as the Mu meson before it was actually discovered. The Rev. Billy Graham got a degree in divinity. Did HE know anything?
I was talking about the nobodies of the world like the poor people that performed the miracles, vs. the people that love acquiring material knowledge. there's no connection between the 2 whatsoever. I wasn't referring to business and research disciplines at all. You got off-base there.
You are wasting your brain power on things that are not worth it.
really? Actually it's quite fun. Since we are doing this mundane coding crap all day long, why not entertain ourselves with other interesting activities?
In our past discussions, you have complained about the way folks treat you and I have tried to point out why that ill treatment happens. If you have technical skills, you will get a good job. If you don't improve your interpersonal skills, you won't keep that job. Or at least, from what we can see on the forum, that will be your downfall every time.
Actually grandpa, you'd be surprised at how much I influence the "little people" in companies. I make plenty of waves, and I do very well at it. 50% of the time it works, 50% of the time it doesn't. More than likely I won't end up in the corporate world because those idiots don't know any common sense whatsoever. Hence, the moniker "the corporate machine". As a side note, I have a suspicion that the hatred of "the corporate machine" that comes from the general public inspired the popular band name "Rage Against the Machine". I don't like their music, but that's an interesting name. and if you want an example of how dumb corporations are nowadays, take a look at this response I made to a friend of mine on facebook:



and of course, the LinkedIn software is just as bad: https://drive.google.com/file/d/1lCKBzKFSFgejnIne-wJ18ALgQs3XEjkn/view?fbclid=IwAR2ZJ8nE82lqaqCDkRTpUtX6N7K_WFaRKou4598kIR24CpoQXlXCZjABlTQ

If you are considering this Boston gig, then obviously you have either rejected or have not yet accepted that job that would require you to take some intense OOP training.
TRAINING for OOP!? Oh my god, tell me you're kidding Richard! Do you honestly think I need to train in that? OOP can be learned by a freakin 2 year old if it's explained properly. As a matter of fact, I am now re-considering posting my common-sense based FAQ thread on this forum outlining OOP concepts and such. It's actually quite long as it is now, and the thread is sitting in a text file on my desktop waiting to be finished. I've done plenty of research on the topic already and most of the websites I've visited actually have semi-nonsense and redundancies on them, thus in the thread I'm writing, if I finish it, will outline this stuff because people that need MS Access and other "starter" programs more than likely won't understand OOP if an "intelligent" engineer explains it to them. So....if I decide to continue it, stand by and you can humor yourself by reading it. And I'm sure it will draw plenty of fire here from you experts. If i do post it, I'll look forward to many "corrections" posted as replies to it. :rolleyes:
 

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