Are you an atheist? (1 Viewer)

[spikepl]

What never ceases to amaze me are the illogical and incessant attempts of believers to dress up faith as a discipline subject to rules of logic and science.

Faith is faith, science is science. The very reason why faith is called faith is because it is not science.

 

[aziz rasul]

By definition, the need for faith indicates that a concept cannot be supported by evidence. To persist with a claim that contradicts the evidence is a delusion.

Plenty of evidence has been given in this thread.

Proofs have come unto you from your Lord, so whoso seeth, it is for his own good, and whoso is blind is blind to his own hurt. And I am not a keeper over you. 6.104

Those whom Allah sendeth astray, there is no guide for them. He leaveth them to wander blindly on in their contumacy. 7.186

010.042 And of them are some who listen unto thee. But canst thou make the deaf to hear even though they apprehend not?

010.043 And of them is he who looketh toward thee. But canst thou guide the blind even though they see not?

010.044 Lo! Allah wrongeth not mankind in aught; but mankind wrong themselves.

010.045 And on the day when He shall gather them together, (when it will seem) as though they had tarried but an hour of the day, recognising one another, those will verily have perished who denied the meeting with Allah and were not guided.

Religion is nothing but the ravings of lunatics. There is little doubt, based on modern medical knowledge and contemporary reports of his behaviour, that Mohammed was experiencing epileptic seizures of the temporal lobes of the brain when he imagined his own bigoted, misogynist prejudices were a message from a supernatural entity.

This is an example of what non religion does to a person.

The likeness of those who disbelieve (in relation to the messenger) is as the likeness of one who calleth unto that which heareth naught except a shout and cry. Deaf, dumb, blind, therefore they have no sense. 2.171

Take a step outside the box that defines your faith and you might just glimpse its reality as an anachronism in a world where intelligence has taken us to places where doctrine cannot imagine.

What makes you think that religious people do no think outside the box. I could make the same argument for those who are not religious.

 

[Adam Caramon]

What makes you think that religious people do no think outside the box. I could make the same argument for those who are not religious.

Look at your posts. The vast majority of them are using other people's words to explain for you.

You have to accept the fact that with the internet and its vast amount of freely available information, increasing amounts of equality for women, and less and less gaps for gods to hide in, that religion is going to continue to decrease. I know that can be scary to someone who has based their whole life around religion, but the world of the future will not be friendly to you.

 

[Brianwarnock]

Those whom Allah sendeth astray, there is no guide for them. He leaveth them to wander blindly on in their contumacy. 7.186

So Allah causes people to go astray and then leaves them, presumably to perish, evil kinda being isn't he.

Brian

 

[Galaxiom]

Plenty of evidence has been given in this thread.

All you have provided are quotes from a Quran. Everything you have claimed has been systematically dismantled by rational analysis.

 

[Galaxiom]

Religion is nothing but the ravings of lunatics. There is little doubt, based on modern medical knowledge and contemporary reports of his behaviour, that Mohammed was experiencing epileptic seizures of the temporal lobes of the brain when he imagined his own bigoted, misogynist prejudices were a message from a supernatural entity.

This is an example of what non religion does to a person.

No. It is an example of looking at the available information in a rational way without the clouded view of religious dogma.

Mohammed's reported behaviour of hyperreligosity closely matches that of a person suffering from Temporal Epilepsy. Even his own wife though he had gone mad when he spent all that time in a cave.

Throughout history people have attributed many events to gods and other supernatural beings. The behaviours of people with mental illnesses and other physical malfunctions are still frequently attributed by some to "possession by evil spirits".

Over time science has shown the real causes of these phenomena. Those who continue to insist on supernatural interpretations look increasingly ridiculous.

What makes you think that religious people do no think outside the box. I could make the same argument for those who are not religious.

By definition the religious confine their thoughts to a box called doctrine. They steadfastly interpret everything in terms of the tenets of their faith. There is no room for critical analysis which would provide a balanced perspective because that would contradict the dogma. You have demonstrated this in your posts by persisting claims that have been clearly demostrated to be false.

 

[aziz rasul]

But I had to think outside the box before accepting Islam. Having done that of course I use the Qur’an to base my arguments around as I accepted them consciously in the first place. There are still many Qur’anic verses I study that I have little or no knowledge about. Life is all about trying to learn stuff. There have been some Qur’anic verses that I didn’t understand in the past for which I had to study and look into the hadith and tafsirs to establish what they meant. Hence I don’t just blindly accept stuff just for the sake of doing so.

Just because I have a different view from you doesn't mean I don't equally put some thought in my points of view.

 

[aziz rasul]

Brian, God leaves people to stray after they have turned their backs on him. Hence being led astray is initiated by the individual in the first place. Similarly if the same individual turns back to God, he benefits. After all if a person chooses to turn his back to God is unlikely to accept anything that God says in the first place.

 

[Brianwarnock]

Brian, God leaves people to stray after they have turned their backs on him. Hence being led astray is initiated by the individual..

that is NOT what 7.186 states read it again with your blinkers off.

Brian

 

[aziz rasul]

All you have provided are quotes from a Quran. Everything you have claimed has been systematically dismantled by rational analysis.

Quotes from God's book is a good place to start and end. What rational analysis? You have haven't convinced me then and neither am I going to be convinced as I know the TRUTH. There is nothing you have said that has meant anything to me as a believer in God. In fact you have behaved in exactly the way that the Qur'an predicts you will behave as a non believer.

You may think in your constumacy that I don't think rationally. You are of course entitled to your view as I think the same of you.

By definition the religious confine their thoughts to a box called doctrine.

Just because you call it a doctrine doesn't mean its incorrect. The doctrine comes from God not man. Who's stopping you from critical analysis. I haven't. I have generally tackled your comments head on. At least on the Day of Judgement you can't cry out you didn't know or weren't told.

You have demonstrated this in your posts by persisting claims that have been clearly demostrated to be false.

In your opinion. I don't happen to share that opinion.

 

[aziz rasul]

Brian, My blinkers were off. Look at the second part of the verse. Perhaps you need to take your blinkers off.

 

[Brianwarnock]

What can be so difficult to understand from

Those whom Allah sendeth astray

He sends them astray, simple

Brian

 

[aziz rasul]

http://www.answering-christianity.com/bassam_zawadi/guidance_of_allah.htm

"And those who strive in Our (cause) - We will certainly guide them to our Paths: For verily God is with those who do right."
Quran 29:69

 

[Adam Caramon]

http://www.answering-christianity.com/bassam_zawadi/guidance_of_allah.htm

In other words, "I don't know why it means that, but I know I have been told it means that. Look at these words from someone else that I think explains what I am trying to say."

 

[aziz rasul]

I know exactly what the verse means and you will see that I did give a simple explanation that Brian in his view didn't accept hence the link.

031.006 And of mankind is he who payeth for mere pastime of discourse, that he may mislead from Allah's way without knowledge, and maketh it the butt of mockery. For such there is a shameful doom.

031.007 And when Our revelations are recited unto him he turneth away in pride as if he heard them not, as if there were a deafness in his ears. So give him tidings of a painful doom.

031.008 Lo! those who believe and do good works, for them are the gardens of delight,

031.009 Wherein they will abide. It is a promise of Allah in truth. He is the Mighty, the Wise.

 

[aziz rasul]

I know exactly what the verse means and you will see that I did give a simple explanation that Brian in his view didn't accept hence the link.

031.006 And of mankind is he who payeth for mere pastime of discourse, that he may mislead from Allah's way without knowledge, and maketh it the butt of mockery. For such there is a shameful doom.

031.007 And when Our revelations are recited unto him he turneth away in pride as if he heard them not, as if there were a deafness in his ears. So give him tidings of a painful doom.

031.008 Lo! those who believe and do good works, for them are the gardens of delight,

031.009 Wherein they will abide. It is a promise of Allah in truth. He is the Mighty, the Wise.

002.015 Allah (Himself) doth mock them, leaving them to wander blindly on in their contumacy.

 

[KenHigg]

Aziz, is seems you are on a dead-end path here. What is your goal in debating alah and quran stuff here? Doubtful you will win any converts and they out number you and are relentless so you will only become worn down and frustrated.

 

[aziz rasul]

You're probably right Ken, I'm not going to make any reverts here. I guess I'm in a 1 to many relationship, LOL.

I have to admit it takes a lot of time to debate the many issues that the discussion naturally picks up from both sides. It's much easier to debate a single but fundamental issue in Islam than wander all over the place because no one really gets anywhere. The initial discussion centred around whether we believed in God and I have placed my view on it. People are free to reject it of course as they have done. Time will tell. Oops I shouldn't have said that because that will start another response. Drat and double Drat.

 

[Galaxiom]

But I had to think outside the box before accepting Islam. Having done that of course I use the Qur’an to base my arguments around as I accepted them consciously in the first place.

Perhaps you thought more broadly about it first but once you accepted Islam you stepped insde its box. Now all you can is what is on the inside of that box.

People who accept religious doctrine start with a presumption that all truth is available neatly packaged and all they need to do is choose the correct package. They do not consider that there is no fountain of knowledge because life is far more complex than that. But rather than make the effort they pick one and stick with it evn when it makes no real sense.

There are still many Qur’anic verses I study that I have little or no knowledge about.

So clearly you accepted the Quran as a whole on the basis of a partial analysis.

There have been some Qur’anic verses that I didn’t understand in the past for which I had to study and look into the hadith and tafsirs to establish what they meant.

That is one of the bizarre parts of Mohammed's convoluted philosophy and his own failure to adopt it himself. What he said, what he did and what he wrote do not align.

Hence I don’t just blindly accept stuff just for the sake of doing so.

But you are now incapable of thought which conflicts with the Quran so you are forced to reinterpret everthing into the context of your assumption that the Quran is the source of all truth.

As you have repeatedly demonstrated here, when the observable facts don't fit your doctine you simply deny the facts.

 

[aziz rasul]

But the package you have chosen blindly without any detailed analysis, which is clear from some of the comments you make, is that my beliefs in Islam (as this is the religion I follow, so can’t speak for other religions) must be wrong. From your post, you have presumed that I may have broadly thought outside the box before entering into it. You presume wrong. I spent sufficient time to establish the correct package and sought enough evidence within it to establish this. Once I established that the Qur’an came from God that was enough. Just because I do not know the Qur’an verse by verse does not mean that my initial assessment was wrong. I have been using MS Access for many years but there is still stuff I don’t know. That doesn’t mean I don’t have faith that MS Access is a RDMS. I don’t need to know absolutely everything about MS Access to use it or accept it. So your comments are illogical.

You also presume incorrectly by your general comments that people start with the premise there is a true package out there. I’m sure there are many atheists who have studied religions and rejected them all. They didn’t necessarily presume there was a correct package out there. Also there may have been people who assumed there were no correct packages but in fact find the correct package in their investigations. You may say it makes no sense. To you it may not but others may see something you can’t or don’t want to see by your blindness.

You say that Muhammad (peace be upon him) did not adhere to his faith but you supply no evidence in your last post. In addition, some of the things you have said in previous posts are completely incorrect. Your hatred of Islam has clouded your thoughts and judgement and this comes out clearly in your posts. Oh while I’m at it, Muhammad (peace be upon him) could not write. This clearly shows your lack of knowledge. In your own words you are incapable of thought. My thoughts do not conflict with the Qur’an as you put it. You may not agree with the Qur’an, that is your choice. Don’t presume that I and other Muslims don’t agree with God’s book. We are not forced to assume anything. The Qur’an is the source of all TRUTH. You may not think so. You are entitled to your opinion. I could find many verses in the Qur’an that even atheists would accept as being sound even if they chose not accept that the Qur’an came from God. But those who have a hatred of Islam, there is nothing you can do. You can deny the TRUTH if you wish I don’t.

In the words of the Qur’an

109.001 Say: O disbelievers!
109.002 I worship not that which ye worship;
109.003 Nor worship ye that which I worship.
109.004 And I shall not worship that which ye worship.
109.005 Nor will ye worship that which I worship.
109.006 Unto you your religion, and unto me my religion.