Contract of Employment (1 Viewer)

[Len Boorman]

My current Contract of Employment states working hours of

08:00 to 16:45 Mon to Thursday 00:30 Break
08:00 to 13:30 Friday with no break

Say the company decides to changes these hours to say 09:00 to 17:00 Mon to Friday.

My belief is that they will have to issue a new contract of employment.

Now the question

What happens if I reject the new contract of employment.

Where do I stand and where does the company stand

Thoughts and advice welcome

Len

 

[namliam]

I live in the NL, so please take this with that in mind.... in our country a contract is an agreement of 2 parties. You and the company.

These two have agreed X (i.e. your wage, the time you work, the breaks you get, what your responsibilities are, etc.). Anything that is to be changed in your Contract needs to be agreed upon by both parties, if no agreement can be made, no change is to be (can be) done.

Unilateral changes by either party are null and void. i.e. a raise in salary is an addendum to the contract that per 1/1/2009 the salary will change to ....
If your working hours are specified in the contract, changing the working hours is subject to your approval. In my contract it says... office is open between 7 am and 8 pm, work 40 hours preferably in five 8 hour days between those times.

Also I think by Dutch law it is not allowed to work 5:30 hours without a lunch break... So there are atleast some differences between our countries laws regarding work.

 

[GaryPanic]

Firstly its a contract - you are under no obligation to comply unless you want to..
if you are agreeable then you should have 1 hour for lunch ( statue law on this I think ) basically its 5 minutes for every hour worked (ish) and then some rounding -

however there is a get out clause if you company decides not to adhere to the EU directive (or UK version of this) this will be spelt out in your contract


- if you stick to your contract hours then the company ca get round employment protection by stating that your job is required on a full time bbasis and can either replace you or get get another job share person

 

[Brianwarnock]

I think that in all cases a company can equate new contract to new job, and are offering you the new job with continuation of employement, if you tell them no, as I did , then you take redundancy, but for me it was merely retiring a year earlier than I intended.

Brian

 

[stopher]

I discussed with our HR officer. This was a casual discussion and I doubt if I got it completely right but the essence was this (i.e. please don’t take any of what I’m saying here as fact – do seek professional advice)…

The employer could request you sign a new contract or sign change to your contract terms rather than issue a new contract (but the sentiments are the same).

If you reject the new contract the employer would most likely dismiss you (unless you could negotiate an alternative contract). Ideally you would have had some form of employee/employer consultation prior to this where they would explain the ramifications of not signing the new contract.

If you are dismissed, you have the right to go to a tribunal and claim “unfair dismissal”. The tribunal would decide if the employer change of conditions were appropriate and reasonable and rule accordingly. Can your employer demonstrate that it needed to adjust the hours? Are the new hours a significantly unreasonable change?

I just read Brian's comment. My colleagues view would be that this is the same job (with some changes to conditions) and therefore the company would simply seek to dismiss (unlikely to offer redundancy). The point is they are not actually getting rid of the job and therefore cannot make you redundant.

But do seek independent professional advice. Clearly we are IT nerds not HR experts

Good luck.

Chris

 

[Len Boorman]

Thanks guys

In the case of being dismissed what would be the grounds. I would not have broken any rules or laws just simply refused to accept a change in the employment contract. That could give them a headache

Basically it is a crap company and as Brian has probably guessed I am closer to retirement than most. So may just be a case of being a Grumpy Old Bugger and tweaking a few tails to show that thir general dictatorial manner can indeed be bounced.

Who would be the main loser is a question of where you stand. Sacking me would not be aproblem. Since only there a few months I have not been there long enough to go for a wrongful dismissal.


Thanks again

Len

 

[Rabbie]

Len, My friendly HR person has said that by UK law you are entitled to a paid 15 minute break after working for 2 hours. You must be entitled to take a comfor break if nothing else.

 

[GaryPanic]

Len -- if your that close to retirement than i would see how my financies are if you could go without too much hardship -stick to your guns -however in the current climate , might be best to hang on in there - or offer a compromise do the full hours but only 4 days or whatever - as long as you show willing they will look the arse ..
however looking at it from the employers side , it could be that they need your skills in the awkward time .. so from there stand point ... ask for a pay rise if you do the longer hours see what reaction you get ..


best of luck Len at whatever - if they give you the push let us know and we won't use their services/product ..

 

[Len Boorman]

Hi Gary Like the style

Basically I started this job in July having been made redundant last December.

They treat their people like crap. My Govenor is really good and they are at the moment saying he is redundant but offereing another position at lower salary and conditions. He is a bit younger thanme (but most working people are) and under the cosh a bit.

AH (my gov) and myself have been working together on a new application that is desperately needed as the old one hangs together with chewing gum and the efforts of my govenor. Honest been there 4-5 months and it is an Access Database and I have no idea how some of it hangs together. Get a corruption virtually daily. No Normalisation, Record Locking or anything good at all.

However my gov has an offer pending from another company where he has known the MD from a business point of view for many years. Looks about 95% certain. The job they want him to do is very much along the loines of the application we have been creating and he has already raised the point that a good access developer will also be required. He knows one (me) who is getting on little bit but brings huge experience and could be tempted especially if it was 3 days a week. I only need 3 days to do a weeks work.... honest.

So now I am fairly sure of my ground I am definately going to be a total pain is the ass.

Failing that I will retire like Brian.

Brian How do I get out of the decorating !!!


L

 

[Brianwarnock]

Hi Gary Like the style


Failing that I will retire like Brian.

Brian How do I get out of the decorating !!!


L

You could try making a mess of it.

Due to my poor eyesight I'm not allowed to decorate anymore as I miss bits and can't cut straight, but I still have to do all the hard bits like preparation, emptying the room etc and then Jimmy comes in (he's a mate of my Son in law) and wizzies round the room at a great rate of knots, its great to watch an expert at work.

Sorry to hear of your troubles Len, hang in there and don't make it easy for the b*******s

Brian

 

[Len Boorman]

How long did it take you to develop the eyesight. Last time I messed up a bit the ears took a week to recover.

No troubles really. Last December the redundancy shook me up. having worked for 46 years it really smacked me about a bit. Now (with whisky to hand) I have a totally different outlook and attitude.

I feel though I have energy to offer as well as skill and experience. Next set of decorating is a bit major as well. Need to get a bit older and a bit doddery and that wil ljustify somebody coming in.

Older and wiser now

L

 

[Brianwarnock]

How long did it take you to develop the eyesight. Last time I messed up a bit the ears took a week to recover.

L

I've always had poor sight, left eye very elongated cannot turn out as it hits the skull bones and heavy so that it turns in, the brain never used it. right eye very short sighted.
Had cataract extractions at 44, in 2000 heamorraged(sp) across macular of right eye, took the brain a year to get used to using left eye for central vision, as it has no peripheral vision that comes from the right eye. Needless to say its a tiring arrangement, but it could be worse.
Hope that potted history didn't bore you too much

Brian

 

[Len Boorman]

Heck Brian I think I will do the decorating

Trust that all is in hand now though.

Always a joy to see you on the forum.

Wisdom, wit and the experience of life from a Liverpudlian.

Not a common combination

That wil ruffle the feathers of a few

L

 

[statsman]

A wise man once said that you make a contract with an eye towards breaking it, not keeping it.
I'm sure the company has some sort of escape or buy out clause in there that will allow them to change whatever they wish.

 

[The_Doc_Man]

Unfortunately, the only experience I have with contract employment of that type is first, USA not UK, and second, not recent. My current employment isn't a formal contract because of the added factor of government contract environments. Due to Federal Acquisition Rules for contractor employment, what you describe would be unlikely to happen now.

In a former life, the rule depends on the local, but in essence, failure to agree to a change of employment conditions usually is treated as a resignation unless you can show medical cause to not change hours. I once refused a promotion on medical grounds because of what I would have to do to fulfil the job's travel requirements. Once the company president understood the nature of the problem, he grudgingly accepted the refusal with pretty good grace.

The same company got bought out a couple of years later. The new owners moved a lot of stuff around. I refused to move to another city 1500 miles away and they tried to say that was a resignation. I countered that due to my mother's terminal condition, I couldn't move her and had to stay near her to assure her proper care.

Fortunately, the State of Louisiana had certain exceptions to the labor law that applied at that time. I exercised a medical hardship, which meant that I had not resigned in a normal sense. They had to pay me a severance package. (Which made me feel great because they were a bunch of @$$holes for whom I would not have been happy to work. They later got bought out in turn and lots of the idiots were released. By then I had another job and simply let bygones be long-gones.

Anyway, back to topic - a contract requires "a meeting of the minds." If you don't like the terms they offer, "proper" handing would include a dialog asking why the change occurred and whether there were exceptions or variants available to accomodate folks with scheduling issues, willing to work but unable to meet the new schedule. If you still can't find a meeting of the minds, then there IS no contract.

I would also check the fine print of the old contract to see if it has a "unilateral action" clause in it. If there IS no such clause, they painted themselves into a corner.

 

[wazz]

i suppose the issue here isn't the terms but the "how-to". but, if it is the terms, i.e. the change in hours, aren't the hours shorter with the new contract? (i'm assuming a 30 min break every day with the new concept).

orig:
08:00 to 16:45 Mon to Thursday 00:30 Break = 8.25 * 4 = 33
08:00 to 13:30 Friday with no break = 5.5
= 38.5

new:
09:00 to 17:00 Mon to Friday = 40 - (5 * .5) = 37.5

again, it might not be the point here, i know.

 

[Len Boorman]

Birmingham at 16:45 is not the best place in the world. At 17:00 it is worse.

Getting to work at 08:00 is considerably easier than for 09:00

Apart from that I very much value the early finish on friday.

Appreciate the less hours bit but that is a minor consideration for me.

L

 

[GaryPanic]

Been there - did an exhibiton at the NEC - left at 5.30- not a happy journey - would of been better waiting a hour before I started the trip - considering i had to get to maidstone Kent ....

 

[wazz]

ah, that's what i thought. i get to start a bit later than most and miss the jams on both ends. very nice to finish early on friday too. i tend to work eves on the weekends, though (but it's worth it in my case).

 

[dkinley]

A wise man once said that you make a contract with an eye towards breaking it, not keeping it.
I'm sure the company has some sort of escape or buy out clause in there that will allow them to change whatever they wish.

I have lived a lot of "hand-to-mouth" contracts and quoting Statsman because this has always been my feeling.

As been said before, they rewrite the contract, you don't agree and poof - you're done at the end of the existing contract. This termination could come early if there is a buy out clause.

The escape clause might not be clear but I've seen it appear under the 'handling of dispute' portion of the contract. Depending on how it was stated, I've always had this rewritten for a third-party mediator. The reason is some might say some lawyer junk in the hopes that you won't pay a jabillion dollars or have some lawyer get 20% of the recovery and you are essentially working for or walking away with a lower rate (if you win). A mediator is much cheaper and the company will have to abide by their decision (unless extra provisions are added). Another factor (again US here), is the mediators can often get away with using common law.

A big example here in the US is most companies get employees to sign a right to work contract that prohibits them from working for competitors or clients until a certain amount of time has passed since employment (generally 1 - 2 years). Most employees abide not knowing that it is nothing but a scare tactic so they won't jump ship when being lured with higher salaries that the employing company doesn't want to pay - the contract isn't worth jack but I had them put in the mediator piece as part of negotiation just to keep my options open but never had to use it.

-dK